The Lords Prayer - Meaning lost in translation...?

[Jeff]

I have a strong inclination to credit the idea of a Buddhist influence on Jesus, either from travellers on the silk route or by him travelling in the 'missing years'. Mainly because his ethics are very like mahayana ethics (even though I don't think the mahayana existed then in the way it does today). What is different of course is the belief in a supreme deity and so on ... which is why I quoted the Lords Prayer in a previous thread ... because it is full of things that a buddhist could not subscribe to. I also am having trouble with specifically why Jesus would teach Dzogchen as such ... I don't see why or how that could be.

 

I am not by the way against mystical Christianity and one of my teachers years ago (now dead) was a Christian Hermeticist ... but agin I don't see what this has to do with Dzogchen.

 

From "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State" by CNN

 

 

Atiyoga, which is synonymous with Dzogchen, is based on the path of self-liberation, and on the direct experiential knowledge of the primordial state.

As I have discussed in other threads, my point is that Jesus was a "primordial" (or Atiyoga) master.

More from... "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State"...

The direct transmission comes about through the unification of the state of the master with that of the disciple.

Or, from the Secret Gospel of Mary...

33. Mary said, “Know how to cleave, and the husks shall be shed, and you will be joined to the Living One. The perfection of cleaving is the bridal chamber, and the wedding feast is the glory of that Perfect Aeon.”

[RongzomFan]

Why has no terton had a terma revealed by Jesus?

[RongzomFan]

Thanks alwayson, isn't it referring to tibetan shamanism?

 

Bon arose in the late 14th century as a weird branch of Buddhist terma.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

[RongzomFan]

 

Or, from the Secret Gospel of Mary...

33. Mary said, “Know how to cleave, and the husks shall be shed, and you will be joined to the Living One. The perfection of cleaving is the bridal chamber, and the wedding feast is the glory of that Perfect Aeon.”

 

Sounds like sex.

[Jeff]

....

 

May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

This is clearly an attempt to do something with “Hallowed be your name.” But how does name become light, and how does the expression of a desire for the name to be sanctified become something holy in the one praying? This is not a translation or even an interpretation of what is in the Syriac, Aramaic or any other version of the Lord’s Prayer.

...

 

Translating words from one language into another always involves some transformation of meaning. There is simply no way to fully grasp the precise meaning and nuance of anything in another language than by becoming intimately acquainted with the language and culture in question.

 

Hi Dao,

 

I would definitely agree with your point regarding translating any language. The above versions of "The Lord's Prayer" I posted was someone's translation of the words and meaning. Everyone is free to interpret the original words in their own context. But, just as Dzogchen and Buddhism in general has "inner forms" and secret rites, texts and transmission, why would not Christianity? In most traditions, it written word was only for the "outer form" of the path.

 

Regarding "light" as corresponding/related to "name", both are concepts of in the creation of "form". Here are a few words for The Gospel of Thomas...

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

[RongzomFan]

Jeff,

 

How is what you are trying to do different than what evangelical missionaries always try to do with eastern religions?

[Jeff]

Sounds like sex.

 

Does "the unification of the state of the master with that of the disciple." also sound like sex?

[RongzomFan]

Does "the unification of the state of the master with that of the disciple." also sound like sex?

 

Which Christian text says that?

[Jeff]

Jeff,

 

How is what you are trying to do different than what evangelical missionaries always try to do with eastern religions?

 

I am not attempting to convert anyone to anything. Just providing a more gnostic Christian perspective to the words of Jesus.

[RongzomFan]

I am not attempting to convert anyone to anything. Just providing a more gnostic Christian perspective to the words of Jesus.

 

Its a typical missionary tactic to impose Jesus into eastern religion.

 

For example, even today, missionaries equate Prajapati from the Vedas with Jesus.

[Jeff]

Which Christian text says that?

 

The words are from the quote from CNN that I posted (26) above. My point is that "cleaving" is an early Christian term with a similar meaning as CNN's "unification".

[Apech]

I am not attempting to convert anyone to anything. Just providing a more gnostic Christian perspective to the words of Jesus.

 

I think that would be fair enough and you would not be the first to elucidate Gnostic Christianity ... but you specifically said he was a Dzogchen master and I don't see any evidence for this so far.

 

One reason that I am reluctant to agree with you is because it is unnecessary to introduce Tibetan Buddhism into what was already a rich culture of mystical thought (the first decades and centuries AD). There were Judaic traditions, classical traditions, ancient pagan traditions and various expressions of Greek philosophy. If Jesus was part of all that then the framework for Christian mystical lineage exists without the need to import from the east.

[Clarity]

Wasn't the point of this thread to illustrate how meaning is lost in translation?

[RongzomFan]

Wasn't the point of this thread to illustrate how meaning is lost in translation?

 

You are always free to read the original Greek.

 

Many Christians learn a little bit of Greek.

[Jeff]

I think that would be fair enough and you would not be the first to elucidate Gnostic Christianity ... but you specifically said he was a Dzogchen master and I don't see any evidence for this so far.

 

One reason that I am reluctant to agree with you is because it is unnecessary to introduce Tibetan Buddhism into what was already a rich culture of mystical thought (the first decades and centuries AD). There were Judaic traditions, classical traditions, ancient pagan traditions and various expressions of Greek philosophy. If Jesus was part of all that then the framework for Christian mystical lineage exists without the need to import from the east.

 

Hi Apech,

 

I believe that I stated in an earlier in this thread (post 5) that I was going to discuss the concept of Dzogchen/primordial master at a later time. I am still trying to find "open" and published material that can be shared to support the position. Like in Dzogchen, much of the inner information is "restricted".

 

The purpose of this thread was to only share a broader perspective on the Lord's Prayer as you had specifically used it as a counter argument (in a different thread) regarding the lack of correlation between the Lord's Prayer and Buddhism.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Apech]

Hi Apech,

 

I believe that I stated in an earlier in this thread (post 5) that I was going to discuss the concept of Dzogchen/primordial master at a later time. I am still trying to find "open" and published material that can be shared to support the position. Like in Dzogchen, much of the inner information is "restricted".

 

The purpose of this thread was to only share a broader perspective on the Lord's Prayer as you had specifically used it as a counter argument (in a different thread) regarding the lack of correlation between the Lord's Prayer and Buddhism.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

 

Ok maybe I was wrapping the two things together ... but I still hold the same view about the Lords Prayer ... and it is how (we are told) he taught them to pray.

[Jeff]

You are always free to read the original Greek.

 

Many Christians learn a little bit of Greek.

 

One is also free to read Christian texts that are beyond the limited scope defined and approved by the early roman empire.

 

19. Mary said, “Until there is light in a form and it becomes light, it is a false appearance. Though a human form appears, unless a person brings the supernal soul into the body, that person is not yet a human being.”

 

The Secret Gospel of Mary

[RongzomFan]

One is also free to read Christian texts that are beyond the limited scope defined and approved by the early roman empire.

 

And what about Marcionism, Montanism etc.?

 

Keep going and absorb all the heresies

[skydog]

 

So much is lost in translation from other times, places, and peoples.

 

Thanks for sharing this. It reminds me of the Sufi story "The Traveler and the Grapes".

 

"The parable that follows was originally composed by the greatest of all Sufi poets, Jalal ad-Din Rumi (d. 1273) and recounted by Idris Shah, the Grand Shaykh of Sadarna.

A Persian, a Turk, and Arab and a Greek were traveling to a distant land

when they began arguing over how to spend the single coin they posessed

among themselves. All four craved food, but the Persian wanted to spend

the coin on angur; the Turk, on uzum; the Arab, on inab; and the Greek,

on stafil. The argument became heated as each man insisted on having

what he desired.

A linguist passing by overheard their quarrel. “Give the coin to me,” he

said. “I undertake to satisfy the desires of all of you.”

Taking the coin, the linguist went to a nearby shop and bought four

small bunches of grapes. He then returned to the men and gave them each

a bunch.

“This is my angur!” cried the Persian. “But this is what I call uzum,”

replied the Turk. “You have bought me my inab,” the Arab said. “No! This

in my language is stafil.”

All of a sudden, the men realized that what each of them had desired was

in fact the same thing, only they did not know how to express themselves

to each other.

The four travelers represent humanity in its search for an inner

spiritual need it cannot define and which it expresses in different

ways. The linguist is the Sufi, who enlightens humanity to the fact that

what it seeks (its religions), though called by different names, are in

reality one identical thing. However — and this is the most important

aspect of the parable — the linguist can offer the travelers only the

grapes and nothing more. He cannot offer them wine, which is “the

essence of the fruit.” In other words, human beings cannot be given the

secret of ultimate reality, for such knowledge cannot be shared, but

must be experienced through an arduous inner journey toward

self-annihilation. As the transcendent Iranian poet, Saadi of Shiraz,

wrote,

I am a dreamer who is mute, And the people are deaf. I am unable to say,

And they are unable to hear."

 

yes, nice post

Edited August 14, 2013 by skydog

[Jeff]

Ok maybe I was wrapping the two things together ... but I still hold the same view about the Lords Prayer ... and it is how (we are told) he taught them to pray.

 

Fair enough.

 

In my experience, the deeper meaning of Jesus's words have been lost over the years and in support for the broadening of Roman empire. I tend to use the Dzogchen as it has become the modern day "generic word" that people use to describe various primordial paths.

 

But, as you have stated, there is really no need to draw any connections/comparisons. Each primordial path, though similar in nature, stands on it's own. In the future, I will just post on my experience with the broader meaning and not try to directly compare to Dzogchen. Everyone is free to draw there own conclusions ( no missionary work - Alwayson )

 

A few final words...

 

 

244. Mary said, “The true elements are hidden by the visible, so also are the true rites of the Gospel hidden by the visible. Look to see what is hidden and you will understand.”

 

Best,

Jeff

 

p.s. Personally, my beliefs could be described as a gnostic Christian/Buddhist/Taoist hybrid. The Lankavatara Sutra is probably my favorite ancient text.

[Jeff]

And what about Marcionism, Montanism etc.?

 

Keep going and absorb all the heresies

 

 

When the blind person succeeds in threading the needle, it is as if their sight had returned to them. This is how it is the moment one recognizes and enters into the primordial state by means of the transmission. (Chogyal Namkhai Norbu)

Remind you of anything from the gospels...?

Best wishes, Jeff

(edit - sorry, I slipped... )

Edited August 14, 2013 by Jeff

[RongzomFan]

Even if the Gospels were about recognizing unfabricated presence, or whatever you want to call it, that doesn't make it Dzogchen anymore then Zen is Dzogchen.

[Jeff]

Even if the Gospels were about recognizing unfabricated presence, or whatever you want to call it, that doesn't make it Dzogchen anymore then Zen is Dzogchen.

 

Hi Alwayson,

 

Consider looking deep inside and try to feel the meaning of these words in your "heart"...

 

 

82. Mary said, “All things exist in and with one another, and while they exist they depend on one another, but when the time of dissolution comes, all things will return to their own root and essence. What has come from above returns to the abode from which it has come, and what comes from below returns to its origin. What is in between has never existed, and will return to the Great Void.”

 

 

38. A woman said to Mary, “I have seen the light!” Mary said to the woman, “Wonderful! Now join the darkness to it, and go into the light, and you will discover what is beyond appearances.”

 

 

2. Mary was speaking to her companions, and she said, “There is glory of glory, and glory of light, and there is the True Light. Seek, therefore, the essence of the light, which is beyond all, and you shall know the Truth of Light.”

 

Secret Gospel of Mary

Edited August 14, 2013 by Jeff

[SonOfTheGods]

Almost all Myths have a grain of truth to them.

[三江源]

Almost all Myths have a grain of truth to them.

Which myths dont?