Chapter 1, Section 2 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Chapter 1: Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

Section 2: The mushroom of the morning: Return to a third meal

 

Concepts discussed in Chapter 1, Section 2 are:

 

Relativity of magnitudes, physical and moral

 

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html

 

(Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1)

[Stosh]

What's a unit of moral magnitude?

[Marblehead]

Moral magnitude: Are we always in the gutter? Not very high. Are we always 'high-toned'? Not very low. Can we be flexible to the environment, conditions, people with whom we are speaking? Main path.

 

Units are zero through ten.

[Stosh]

Gutter and high toned are both subjective values. Henry 8 could have been considered either regardiing his marriages. Nazis considered extermination of Jews to be a moral imperative. American settlers of the west had similar views. Since these views are so reversed from current views in many places , I don't see how they could be numbered and compared, vegetarianism homosexuals traditional family structures capitalism communism etc. For any moral opinion somone elsewhere feels the reverse of it is the more moral stance.

[Marblehead]

My best response here would be to ask the question: What would you want done unto you? That would be your moral "high". What would you not want done unto you? That would be your moral "low".

 

Most people are pretty much the same. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That would be a good starting point. And stay open for adjustments.

 

Much later in the study we will see a means of testing one's morality (character). Pretty valid even today.

[Stosh]

My best response here would be to ask the question: What would you want done unto you? That would be your moral "high". What would you not want done unto you? That would be your moral "low". Most people are pretty much the same. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That would be a good starting point. And stay open for adjustments. Much later in the study we will see a means of testing one's morality (character). Pretty valid even today.

Yep one can choose it as a starting point but that doesn't give it a universal validity. Never give a sucker an even break, all of Tsun tzu , homophobia xenophobia slavery etc all had and still have proponents.You or someone else , promoting their view as moral with some sort of justification external to themselves is why you have crusades witch trials crucifixions. This is why one must employ a broader perspective than , I know what's right for everyone.

That being said to get things rolling ...

I await the morality test then. Not being christian this should be interesting.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Okay. But we can still talk more about this section of the chapter. I'm sure that over-night we will get some comments that can be discussed.

 

No, I will never try to validate a universal. I don't even believe universals exist.

 

And we need remember that there were still horrible wars going on in China when Chuang Tzu was writing.

[dawei]

We live and perceive from our own limitations.

[Marblehead]

We live and perceive from our own limitations.

Hehehe. You got that right.

[Stosh]

Wheres Ku supposed to be?

Is Ta kung supposed to be a tree as well?

If one goes 100 li why couldnt you carry provisions that far.

In that time was the sappan-wood tree known for its antibacterial properties?

Was the elm known for its demulcent properties?

Is Urob on target about the wind being chi ?

The li (里, lǐ) is a traditional Chinese unit of distance, which has varied considerably over time but now has a standardized length of 500 metres (1,640 feet) or half a kilometer. A modern li consists of 1,500 Chinese "feet" or chi and, in the past, was often translated as a "mile." Since the li has generally been only about a third as long as the mile, translating the character as "Chinese mile" or simply "li" is much less likely to produce confusion or error.

In practice however, as late as the 1940s, a li did not represent a fixed measure. It could be longer or shorter depending on the effort required to cover the distance.^[1]

Edited August 15, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

So many questions!!!

 

I will speak to only your last question and hopefully Chidragon can and will speak to the others.

 

Yes, IMO, the wind is one of the aspects of Chi - the energy of the universe. In this case we are talking about only this planet but the processes remain throughout the universe. I think.

 

Yes, we should look at the useage of "li" the same way we look at "Ten Thousand Things". An approximation.

[Stosh]

So many questions!!!

 

I will speak to only your last question and hopefully Chidragon can and will speak to the others.

 

Yes, IMO, the wind is one of the aspects of Chi - the energy of the universe. In this case we are talking about only this planet but the processes remain throughout the universe. I think.

 

Yes, we should look at the useage of "li" the same way we look at "Ten Thousand Things". An approximation.

Well ,there is symbolism employed , and though I think I get the general ideas , if one is going to look closer and get a finer read on his stories then one needs to look at them symbols more closely, the meanings of which may have been different back then,

For instance if the attitude about elms and Sappan-wood trees was centered around their medicinal properties then one might take them for analogies for the injuries (sappan-wood) and illnesses ( elm) ,,of life , and then he would be being much more specific about what earlier efforts had been made...

that he exceeds them by looking at the root of mans dissatisfactions rather than the intermediate mundane afflictions of the human condition.

Yes Li then was approximate , revolving around the amount of effort that a thing took , like we use the term horsepower or furlong ,, but then , in that aspect of it we are being pointed to the significance of the use of distances as being metaphor for effort and experience over time..

Or so methinks.

[Marblehead]

Yes Stosh, I agree. But I can't speak to those other questions you asked as I do not have the knowledge. That is why I suggested that perhaps Chidragon could speak to them.

[ChiDragon]

Wheres Ku supposed to be?

Is Ta kung supposed to be a tree as well?

If one goes 100 li why couldnt you carry provisions that far.

In that time was the sappan-wood tree known for its antibacterial properties?

Was the elm known for its demulcent properties?

Is Urob on target about the wind being chi ?

The li (里, lǐ) is a traditional Chinese unit of distance, which has varied considerably over time but now has a standardized length of 500 metres (1,640 feet) or half a kilometer. A modern li consists of 1,500 Chinese "feet" or chi and, in the past, was often translated as a "mile." Since the li has generally been only about a third as long as the mile, translating the character as "Chinese mile" or simply "li" is much less likely to produce confusion or error.

In practice however, as late as the 1940s, a li did not represent a fixed measure. It could be longer or shorter depending on the effort required to cover the distance.^[1]

 

Wheres Ku supposed to be?

Ku should be Chu, 楚, which is short for the State of Chu. Chu is a name was given to a state under the feudalism.

 

Is Ta kung supposed to be a tree as well?

Yes, 大椿 is a tree. In modern pingyin(phonetic) is Da Zhuang instead of Ta Khun.

 

If one goes 100 li why couldnt you carry provisions that far.

It can be done. I think the turtle dove was just complaining that it has to carry something so far away to indicate its laziness.

 

In that time was the sappan-wood tree known for its antibacterial properties?

Was the elm known for its demulcent properties?

The trees were mentioned just as objects in the parables, I don't think ZZ was concerned about the properties of those trees at the time.

 

Is Urob on target about the wind being chi ?

I don't understand the question. What is "Urob on target".....???

Okay, now I understand. Yes, Urob is on target. The wind is 氣（chi）, it doesn't mean "energy" here. It means the moving air(氣:Chi),

Edited August 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Yes Li then was approximate , revolving around the amount of effort that a thing took , like we use the term horsepower or furlong ,, but then , in that aspect of it we are being pointed to the significance of the use of distances as being metaphor for effort and experience over time..

Or so methinks.

 

里（Li） is a Chinese unit for distance; a Chinese mile. Just think of it as a unit, the numbers are not that significant.

力（Ｌi) is human body strength. Please don't get them confused with the phonetics.

[Stosh]

 

里（Li） is a Chinese unit for distance; a Chinese mile. Just think of it as a unit, the numbers are not that significant.

力（Ｌi) is human body strength. Please don't get them confused with the phonetics.

I couldnt possibly !

[Stosh]

CD Are Ming ling Ta Khun both species of trees or nonspecific words for trees or human names given to some old trees like General Sherman?

Why assume the dove was lazy? And again dimiss the properties of the trees ? Doves and cicadas also have symbolic attributes. In section 3 the dove is now a quail, and he is speaking about the views of different perspectoves, is he not? Then, though I haven't googled it quail probably have a different symbolic association than doves do or he would just be contradicting himself.

[ChiDragon]

Ming Ling and Ta Khun are the legendary names given to the trees by ZZ.

The dove was assumed lazy was only ZZ's illustration in comparison to the Peng bird. The peng bird wants to travel a long distance but the dove didn't. It was because it has to go through all the hassle of carrying the extra luggage for long distance travel, so to speak.

Again, ZZ is not a TCM person, thus he was not concern about the medical property of the trees.

Please don't be so concern with the properties of the birds that ZZ uses but read into the thoughts of the parables. The only thing you should be concerned is the size of the bird. ZZ was using the size of the birds to distinguish the difference between big and small. What kind of birds he was used for example is immaterial.

Edited August 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Is Urob on target about the wind being chi ?

I don't understand the question. What is "Urob on target".....???

Okay, now I understand. Yes, Urob is on target. The wind is 氣（chi）, it doesn't mean "energy" here. It means the moving air(氣:Chi),

So you are understanding this as "breathe" or "air" as Chi is sometimes translated?

[Uroboros]

Hmm....I have been pondering these sections, 1/ 2, looking at them from a different perspective..

 

Section 2 starts with talking about water, how you need a certain amount of water to carry certain sizes.

 

If the water is not deep enough, it wont carry a big boat.

 

When I was thinking about the wind being Qi, I did not mean Qi as in wind. I meant the Qi "field" / "web".

 

The "energy".

 

Looking at this section, Im pondering the meaning that they are talking about how you must have a certain amount of Qi built, possibly in the LDT ( wind underneath the wings) to " carry the sky on your back"...experience the Tao? (TrueTao)

 

Of course, it could also mean "breath" or "air". We do happen to need good breathing to do much of anything. haha.

 

There are probably layers to these writings..Some only make sense if we look at it from different perspectives.

 

Some would be philosophical, some would be speaking to cultivators.

 

Interesting that they say- Therefore (the Peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient. As it seemed to bear the blue sky on its back, and there was nothing to obstruct or arrest its course, it could pursue its way to the South.

 

So if there is sufficient "wind", nothing is left to obstruct or arrest its course...

 

I wondering if that is talking about clearing the channels/ vessels. Enough qi in the LDT, they open naturally.

 

Hehe, of course, I may be seeing more then there is here.

[Uroboros]

Then they go on to talk about how the cicada and the dove laugh at the Peng for its efforts to gather so much wind, to travel so far and high.

 

We see that often play out in human inter-actions.

 

This may even be of a similar vein to TTC Chapter 41

 

The best scholars, hearing of Tao, follow it diligently.

The modest scholars, hearing of Tao, falter in and out.

The mediocre scholars, hearing of Tao, burst into laughter.

If there is a layer to cultivators, maybe they are speaking to a common problem. Many are acting like the cicada, running around thinking their "low level" achievements are something worth while, when they have no idea what the "higher heights" are like.

If someone speaks to the "high levels", they laugh and think it absurd and a waste of time.

Peace.

[ChiDragon]

So you are understanding this as "breathe" or "air" as Chi is sometimes translated?

 

Yes, all Chinamen knew that. Unless they are not Chinamen......

Edited August 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

It doesn't imply why they the mediocre scholars burst into laughter.

The highly instructed scholars are too wrapped up in arriving at some conclusive fact .

The modest scholars have no faith in their conclusions or don't come to solid ones

The mediocre scholars laugh because they find that it never wasnt all that complicated to begin with.

I'd agree Zz also says this, just not in such a misleading manner.

[Stosh]

Yes, all Chinamen knew that. Unless they are not Chinamen......

Which they aren't because although they are all men

'China' is a subjective illusion suggesting false homogenaity.All I would have to do to prove it is point out some stereotypes.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Which they aren't because although they are all men

'China' is a subjective illusion suggesting false homogenaity.All I would have to do to prove it is point out some stereotypes.

 

Only if you would like to make it an illusion. I know that I am a Chinaman and you are not.......