Let's send one of our own for Lei Shan Dao training

[Cameron]

Sean D mentioned this in another thread I think this is a golden idea.

 

Let's face it, Lei Shan Dao training in China is very expensive. But the mere chance that it is for real and what these guys like Sean D and David Shen Verdesi are claiming to have come in contact with demands attention and study.

 

The way I see it, before I would feel comfortable dropping money and time-sounds like almost a month? I would want someone I know and trust to go and give real feedback.

 

In my view it would have to come down to one of either 3 Tao Bums, Yoda, Sean Omlor or Kieth Franzen. Either of these 3 dudes I would feel 100% sure would give us accurate,down to earth feedback on what they saw and experienced.

 

Ime not saying they would have to teach us what they learned in the training but just report honestly on what they experienced, meeting Immortals, people walking through walls, reproducing bodies, flying etc(all of which have been reported on the Foundation training board).

 

Financially, it sounds like the trip costs $7500? I don't know if that covers ticket, hotel room or whatever. But if 100 Tao Bums chipped in 75-100 each that should cover it I guess.

 

I think one of the 3 mentioned should be sponsered by TB's to go on one of the trainings in 2008.

 

Either Yoda, Sean O or Kieth F would be my votes for giving the most fair and balanced report on what's really going on. I am presuming any of these guys would jump at the chance at such an opportunity and it really isn't alot for us to give considering the quality of feedback we would get.

[DentyDao]

Those of you who know David, know that he has a truly adventurous spirit. I see no reason why he wouldn't take this proposal seriously. If enough people say they are interested, I will make request and draw up a proposal. I would also put Cameron and Max into the running. It would have to be someone very familiar with the Tao Bum community and also comfortable sharing their experience in a public way. It would also require someone who is mature, grounded and understands and respects that they are taking on a responsability to uphold the tradition set forth by the masters.

 

This has to be done thoughtfully, but I think it's a great idea and I'm sincerely all for it. I would be happy to help set up a way for people to contribute to the effort, which David's approval of course, and/or advise and give input. And, I will personally contribute to the cost as well and ask the foundation forum to make a contribution.

 

2008!!!!

[Pietro]

Ime not saying they would have to teach us what they learned in the training but just report honestly on what they experienced, meeting Immortals, people walking through walls, reproducing bodies, flying etc(all of which have been reported on the Foundation training board).

 

Ok, I'll play the devil's advocate.

But what if he is then required to keep his mouth shut. Would our money be given with the string attached that he is not to make any commitment that would prevent him to report back fully? Doesn't sound like a great deal for whoever would take it.

And what would all this talk talk talk do to him. Too much talk harms the heart. And especially the heart shen suffers. In a situation like this to experience it properly he would need to go, come back, and be silent to digest all that has happened. Coming back and make a full report is 'spiritually speaking' the unwisest idea I could think off.

 

Said that personally I would chip in for Yoda and Plato. No one else from this pocket.

[Cameron]

Of course, more may be added to the pot. The primary reason I vote for either of the 3 I mentioned is because I know each of these guys to be deeply honest and would put the integrity of what they see highly.

 

I am good friends with Max and deifnetly would put him on the roster if it was only me voting but I see Max as someone who already has a strong belief in things like superpowers. Same thing with Plato, he already told me in person things he experienced with Master Nan that would make it a mute point what he said about Lei Shan Dao.

 

Bottom line, I think either Yoda, Sean O or Kieth(Trunk) would give very accurate feedback.

 

If the master swears them to secrecy? Obviously if they are not allowed to speak about what they see and experience there would be no point to it at all. I don't mean they have to talk about what they learn. Essentially return with an attitude saying "This is for real..this is what you should spend your time and energy pursuing..it's the shit", or "Don't waste your money..it's just qigong with smoke and mirrors".

[Trunk]

For a number of personal reasons, I take myself out of the running from the sponsored trip. However, my opinion is that David and SeanD are being honest, that the lineage is genuine, and I would chip in $ for who ever the group chooses.

 

And I would be happy with whatever amount of return-communication respectfully balances the closed-door nature of the system, the containment of grace within the aspirant, and the interest in reporting back. Whatever that turns out to be.

 

I think it's a real opportunity to support dharma activity.

(And a fun idea. )

[sunshine]

Now Cameron: Have you thought about that the person going has to "sacrifce" something when going???

 

They have to give up their current practice for the time being. That means for 3 full years at least. Not only

in order to be able to report back properly, but BECAUSE it is REQUIRED!!!

 

just a thought

 

Harry

[turbo]

Cam,

 

Your intention is in the right place, but youre going about it entirely the wrong way. The LSD folks should sponsor a taobum to take the class, not the other way around. Its silly for us to waste our money for David Shen's profit. Let him prove it to us, take someone from the boards who will sincerely practice it and let him train them without cost. I would understand if airfare and hotel were not covered, but the cost of having one more student in a class is marginal, and ultimately could reap large gains (not simply monetary, but reputation and credibility) for David and co.

 

Just my 2cents,

T

[sunshine]

Oh T. You are completely off the line here... Mr. Shen has no reason to have to prove anything to you...

[turbo]

Oh T. You are completely off the line here... Mr. Shen has no reason to have to prove anything to you...

 

What basis do you have for making that conclusion?

[Smile]

I think Sunshine is going to Denmark?

 

...just report honestly on what they experienced, meeting Immortals, people walking through walls, reproducing bodies, flying etc(all of which have been reported on the Foundation training board).

I doubt they will see that happening because this is not a circus. Most will not have enough wisdom/ "inner eye" to see the illusion from real power.

The real proof would be for a person to learn the practices and do them 3+ hours a day for many years. The possibility of this kind of dedication is very slim for many reasons.

 

I will be making plans to go there 2008-09, as I already made other plans for this year long time ago.

I would also say the person going there should be going for the right reasons, and seeing superpowers should be the last on the list.

Edited May 5, 2007 by Smile

[sunshine]

What basis do you have for making that conclusion?

 

Well. Tell me why do you think he should have?

 

He has knowledge. Why show it off? For ego reasons?

He has knowledge. Why give it to someone who is believing he has the right to get everything just as is?

 

please do not get me wrong. This is no side-kick towards you, but David offers something one can either go forward and see were it leads or decide to better not to do. He is not selling a good he wants many to buy just for the part of making money with it!!!

 

So. Why do you believe he has to do what you ask for?

 

with smiles

 

Harry

 

I think Sunshine is going to Denmark?

 

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... the secret is out of the sack...

 

not really though... I have a pretty strong intent. I just have to solve my own knots first. I have a strong respect for my current teacher. I told him that for me something is missing and that I want to develop my healing abilities, which is not part of his training. He said: seems to be your Karma. Lai Shan Dao training does develop certain healing abilities, but according to David is not exactly meant for that. Further he told me about a Chinese Master who teaches you to properly work to develop these abilities, and that guy gives training in my country.

 

I am intrigued.

 

Drawback: foundation training and this teachers training is compatible, the training thereafter for the time being not... AND: it would require 5 to 6 hours training taken both together a day... am I able to do that? I don't know...

 

and if I enter both it stands to reason I won'T necessarily be able to separate the individual development each develops from each other, except the teachers tell the signs so clear that one knows exactly what does what...

 

time will tell...

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[turbo]

Well. Tell me why do you think he should have?

 

Per my post above, it would be only a marginal expense to add one student to an already planned course.

 

If you want to take up the issue of needing proof of the legitimacy of the practices then consult Cameron, as he is seeking proof. However, for me, if a taobum went and practiced the LSD methods per David Shen's instructions and reported back that would add a level of legitimacy that I, and perhaps this is a personal failing, can not get by reading internet message boards. Lets face it, is there any evidence outside of message boards for anyone to rely on?

 

He has knowledge.

 

I suppose you have studied with him? I am unaware of your basis for this conclusion.

 

 

Why give it to someone who is believing he has the right to get everything just as is?

 

Why does he give it to anyone who has the cash for it? I don't know. Many people believe that spiritual teachings should be given away for free. dhamma.org is an example of that in action.

 

Further, are you proposing that I believe that I have a right to get everything just as is? If this is some sort of an accusation, I am happy to respond, but I need you to clarify what having "the right to get everything just as is" means.

 

please do not get me wrong. This is no side-kick towards you, but David offers something one can either go forward and see were it leads or decide to better not to do. He is not selling a good he wants many to buy just for the part of making money with it!!!

 

Again, I must make the assumption that you know David in some personal manner to be able to assert that you know that he does not want to make money with it. Further, in my post I mentioned that the rewards that could be reaped would be not only monetary, but his system would get a serious boost in legitimacy. Surely, anyone wishing to establish themselves or their methods as legitimate would want this.

 

From what I've read David is looking to get approval to teach the LSD methods to a wider audience. Establishing a reputation as a legitimate school or method of spiritual cultivation is key to this. Having someone from the taobums take his class may expedite this process.

 

So. Why do you believe he has to do what you ask for?

 

I harbor no such belief and let me be the first to apologize for leaving you with that impression. I am simply stating from that from the perspective of him wanting to help others and spread the practice of LSD that it is in his best interest to legitimize his techniques to a wider audience. One avenue to do this, as Cameron proposed, is for one of the taobums to take one of his courses. Perhaps a better one is for David to let one of us to attend without cost.

 

Cheers,

T

[sunshine]

>If you want to take up the issue of needing proof of the legitimacy of the practices then consult Cameron, as he is seeking proof.<

 

There are many seeking the proof and go for it...

 

>However, for me, if a taobum went and practiced the LSD methods per David Shen's instructions and reported back that would add a level of legitimacy that I, and perhaps this is a personal failing, can not get by reading internet message boards. Lets face it, is there any evidence outside of message boards for anyone to rely on?<

 

No. There is not.

 

>>He Has knowedge<<

 

>I suppose you have studied with him? I am unaware of your basis for this conclusion.<

 

No. I haven't studied with him (yet). But his answers to questions are those of an intellectually well developed man who knows what he is talking about. There is about no "babbling" found in his messages... most often clear, precise and straight to the point. Could he be deceiving due to his intellecutal capability? Sure, he could... but it is up to each of us to decide if we want to prove it for ourselves or not! I just want to add: he has replied to questions of mine in the past with a great kind of kindness, humility and sincerity and in an appreciable no-nonsense manner!

 

>>Why does he give it to anyone who has the cash for it? I don't know. Many people believe that spiritual teachings should be given away for free. dhamma.org is an example of that in action.<<

 

That is one way of belief. There are therapists out there who charge a little and have trouble to live and others who charge a lot and live better... I won't judge...

 

>>Further, are you proposing that I believe that I have a right to get everything just as is? If this is some sort of an accusation, I am happy to respond, but I need you to clarify what having "the right to get everything just as is" means.<<

 

I am not very good at accusing people because I am too much aware of my own drawbacks and flaws. But the way you put it was like: "Hey. You guys of Mercedes want to make me believe that your car is the best in the world. Give me one for free and later on I will tell people about it.".... not quite the way it works...

 

>>Again, I must make the assumption that you know David in some personal manner to be able to assert that you know that he does not want to make money with it.<<

 

I tell you something from my own little point of view:

Those one believes to know most about not seldom prove to be those one knew most little about.

 

I am not able to answer the question of what the money is for. And in all honesty: it is not my business.

But if you want to talk about money let us get things straight: you get what you get in Denmark as well. 1000 Euro one week training 5 hours a day. Is that really that much more than others charge and so far out to just because of that doubt sincerity?

 

>>Further, in my post I mentioned that the rewards that could be reaped would be not only monetary, but his system would get a serious boost in legitimacy. Surely, anyone wishing to establish themselves or their methods as legitimate would want this.<<

 

Just not of your opinion here...

 

>>From what I've read David is looking to get approval to teach the LSD methods to a wider audience. Establishing a reputation as a legitimate school or method of spiritual cultivation is key to this. Having someone from the taobums take his class may expedite this process.<<

 

He is already on the way of teaching to a larger audience... there are quite a few on their way to China and others on their way to Denmark...

 

and in all honesty: I very much assume David does not need to rely on a Taobumsler to legitimate him...

 

with smiles

 

Harry

Edited May 6, 2007 by sunshine

[sunshine]

.... double post...

Edited May 6, 2007 by sunshine

[DentyDao]

I see this turning out to be another Taobums classic. I will personally contribute $1000.00 to whomever your group chooses, if you can get your act together and actually give this simple idea a chance.

 

S

[Cameron]

So far it sounds like Yoda and Kieth are out. Sean O doesn't seem to be around but I am guessing he would definetly be interested?

 

I could be wrong of course. But if Sean O is interested I think he should definetly be on the list to give objective feedback. He's TTB's webmaster for Chrissake Ime sure he would give good feedback.

 

I wouldnt' presume for us not to pay the idea here is we all pitch in for one of us the board/group as a whole thinks has integrity and will give unbiased, clear view of the anture of the practice and it's worth.

I dont' mean to imply they would just be going to see people light things on fire and walk through walls.Obviously the major purpouse to is to be respectful of the traditon and learn the practice.

 

But lets face it it's an expensive tradition. I didn't mention Smile at first since he is basically already converted and seems to mostly beleive what Sean D is saying. The idea was to send one of us who is 'on the ropes' so to speak, doesnt' really know what to make of all this. But of course is interested and would be willing to get down and do some practice and research/has an open mind etc.

 

Maybe we should start another thread to actually see who would even be willing to contribute and how much they would be willing to contribute.

[spyrelx]

I nominate myself. Best man for the job, by far.

 

Humbly yours,

 

spyrelx

[turbo]

the way you put it was like: "Hey. You guys of Mercedes want to make me believe that your car is the best in the world. Give me one for free and later on I will tell people about it.".... not quite the way it works...

 

I'm sorry that you do not seem to understand the idea of a marginal cost. When a person sits in on a class, it costs the teacher nothing. There is no material used, there is nothing created or destroyed.

 

There exist tales of gongfu masters who learned by watching masters teach from a distance. What is being proposed is not dissimilar to this. Its silly to compare someone sitting in on a class to producing some product for someone to consume.

 

There is no financial reason to prohibit David Shen from taking an additional student to an already planned class. Except the fact that he will not receive more money for the same effort.

 

I am not able to answer the question of what the money is for. And in all honesty: it is not my business.

Ok, well, I never asked what the money is for.

 

But if you want to talk about money let us get things straight: you get what you get in Denmark as well. 1000 Euro one week training 5 hours a day. Is that really that much more than others charge and so far out to just because of that doubt sincerity?

 

I don't doubt his sincerity. Even PT Barnum was sincere when he said that a fool is born everyday.

 

As far as the cost goes, its fairly expensive. Particularly when compared to resources like aypsite.com and dhama.org who charge nothing.

 

I can not criticize David for making a living, we all need to make money. However, even the therapists that charge a lot of money occasionally take on a charity case. Doctors and lawyers do too.

 

>>Further, in my post I mentioned that the rewards that could be reaped would be not only monetary, but his system would get a serious boost in legitimacy. Surely, anyone wishing to establish themselves or their methods as legitimate would want this.<<

 

Just not of your opinion here...

 

Allow me to apologize, I made a circular argument here. Of course anyone wishing to establish themselves as legitimate would want to a serious boost in legitimacy. I'm not sure how you consider this an opinion or how you can not agree with it...

 

Perhaps you disagree with the idea that taking a student on who we were familiar with and trust would boost his reputation. Apparently you are in the minority, see the discussion on who should take the class.

 

and in all honesty: I very much assume David does not need to rely on a Taobumsler to legitimate him...

 

Nor am I suggesting that a taobum seal of approval will make him legitimate. However, it will lend much more credibility to the clams he and his students make. Again, see the discussion on who should take the class for the need to establish his school. Many are curious.

[sunshine]

T. We can go arguing about it which is not my main intent. You offered your opinion that David should be the one offering someone to take part in the training for free. I don't think he "should" and what you say about the possible benefits this might have, in no way might be what David is interested in (I say "might", as I have no clue). And well. I am quite familar with the idea of "marginal costs"... but I tell you. In order to become a qualified acupuncturist I have payed many thousands... aside from travelling costs, time envolement etc. etc. etc. An in order to stay be top of the line training does not finish... and I continue to spend thousands to continue. Allow me to conclude that these are no marginal costs at all: and I assume (and I have my reasons to assume) that David had to face and faces similar issues...

 

Its silly to compare someone sitting in on a class to producing some product for someone to consume.

 

I allow myself to be silly from time to time in order to bring across an idea. See above!

 

There is no financial reason to prohibit David Shen from taking an additional student to an already planned class. Except the fact that he will not receive more money for the same effort.

 

I could name you a reason or two or maybe more aside from the money-issue... but again: as I have no clue what is in David's mind I better refrain.

 

As far as the cost goes, its fairly expensive. Particularly when compared to resources like aypsite.com and dhama.org who charge nothing.

 

And then: there are many who charge and the costs for the Denmark training, just to get back to this, are in no way much more epensive then many other trainings. I tend to pay about 200 to 300 Euros for 10 hours acupuncture training. That means 20 to 30 Euros an hour. The training is 5 hours a day for 7 days... see what I mean...

 

I can not criticize David for making a living, we all need to make money. However, even the therapists that charge a lot of money occasionally take on a charity case. Doctors and lawyers do too.

 

Yep. Some do. But to conclude that one simply can expect them to do it... well...

 

Of course anyone wishing to establish themselves as legitimate would want to a serious boost in legitimacy. I'm not sure how you consider this an opinion or how you can not agree with it...

 

That might be true if you had to establish yourself... I do not see the prove for that in this case!

 

Perhaps you disagree with the idea that taking a student on who we were familiar with and trust would boost his reputation. Apparently you are in the minority, see the discussion on who should take the class.

 

Just because a majority believes something does not necessarily make it right... while I sure claim not it to be wrong... again: why do you assume he needs to boost his reputation ?

 

Many are curious.

 

Yes. Many are curious and some already go to see for themselves... without being payed to do so...

 

 

Harry

[Smile]

Turbo,

From my experience as a meditation teacher in the past, students who complain about the money and get admited to the class for free are the worst kind of students as they constantly interrapt the class with unrelated questions and complaints, and later simply don't practice. It is simly a waist and hinders the learning progress of others in the class. I observed it and other teachers say the same thing.

 

The question of money always comes up. My answer is if the teacher doesn't charge you for the class, he would have to find another job to support his living needs. And that would make him less available to teach, or maybe not at all. There is also an issue of "entitlement"- I deserve to be invited for free, etc. The questing you should be asking is what makes you special and not the others who dedicated their resources and effort to attend the class. Would you go to your job and work for free? How about every second customer get a free service?

 

I hope you don't take it personally as I really appreciate your contributions on this forum.

Max

Edited May 6, 2007 by Smile

[turbo]

I hope you don't take it personally as I really appreciate your contributions on this forum.

 

Not at all, I enjoy these discussions as they bring light to perspectives I have not considered, and they are all legitimate.

 

I'm not trying to say that David Shen should give away training to anyone who says that they are interested. I am simply trying to suggest that it may be in his interests to sponsor a taobum. It would not cost him anything and we would all benefit.

 

Sure there are problems with freeloaders, but that is not the suggestion. I am not trying to nominate myself. The idea, as far as I perceive it is to find someone we can trust and get their feedback on the practices. I'm not trying to suggest that David take on students for free, or that this is a better model than charging for instruction. I know that if someone with history here took up the practice that I and others would give it more serious consideration. As far as I know, anything could happen on one of these trips, perhaps he is recruiting people for nefarious purposes, perhaps he has superior methods of cultivation. Many here would like to know, but few are willing to spend time and money without some trusted verification.

 

I am quite familar with the idea of "marginal costs"... but I tell you. In order to become a qualified acupuncturist I have payed many thousands... aside from travelling costs, time envolement etc. etc. etc. An in order to stay be top of the line training does not finish... and I continue to spend thousands to continue. Allow me to conclude that these are no marginal costs at all: and I assume (and I have my reasons to assume) that David had to face and faces similar issues...

 

As a student there could not be marginal costs, you have to pay for everything. But suppose your teacher let someone into the class, it costs you nothing and would cost your teacher nothing, unless it excluded another student. The same should be true for David.

[sunshine]

As a student there could not be marginal costs, you have to pay for everything. But suppose your teacher let someone into the class, it costs you nothing and would cost your teacher nothing, unless it excluded another student. The same should be true for David.

 

One thing is for sure... it would pretty clearly show all other students how far they are in their development to emotionally handle that another got it for free, them not.

[gendao]

Turbo,

From my experience as a meditation teacher in the past, students who complain about the money and get admited to the class for free are the worst kind of students as they constantly interrapt the class with unrelated questions and complaints, and later simply don't practice. It is simly a waist and hinders the learning progress of others in the class. I observed it and other teachers say the same thing.

 

The question of money always comes up. My answer is if the teacher doesn't charge you for the class, he would have to find another job to support his living needs. And that would make him less available to teach, or maybe not at all. There is also an issue of "entitlement"- I deserve to be invited for free, etc. The questing you should be asking is what makes you special and not the others who dedicated their resources and effort to attend the class. Would you go to your job and work for free? How about every second customer get a free service?

 

I hope you don't take it personally as I really appreciate your contributions on this forum.

Max

True, but did "John Chang" freely teach Kosta Danaos and his other students?

And what about Wang Liping and his disciples? Does he charge them tuition?

 

I think traditionally in the East, the student "paid" more with strong loyalty and personal friendship, respect and even subservience. These were very much hand-picked, "familial" friendships like father & son that a pricetag simply couldn't be placed on. Which weeded out insincere or unworthy students and kept the "classes" very small...but also helped keep the transmissions undiluted and in good hands. This is why "respect" is so much more important with Eastern disciplehood. Because they often have literally nothing else to gain from you and are doing YOU a huge favor. So, if you learn the "Western" "rebellious teenager" way as if you were paying a tuition, but aren't - then you are sort of "ripping them off." Which is why I think some of these masters get annoyed with Western students over time - because they are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

 

This is due to their background in the commercialized West, where money is substituted for a direct personal relationship and teachings get doled out on a cost schedule. Without the personal relationship, I think some humanistic connection is lost here that often leads to quality-control problems and dilution - but it also does allow access to a wider audience who otherwise might be too far removed to form any relationship at all. It's also a bit more practical in our heavily-industrialized "workshop/gym" culture where most people don't have time for regular devoted practice.

 

So, both methods have their trade-off's. And also the real distinction may be more Old World vs New World, rather than East vs West. But, the point here is that in this cultural translation, this disciplehood is spanning a culture clash and different contexts.

 

Personally, I don't know how David arrived at $7500 but I do think it is only realistic to charge at least some base amount, at least. In our Western context, I hardly think he needs to spring for some student's fee just to "prove" it to us. If he were to go that route, he might as well invite James Randi instead and make a million dollars in return. The question here is more how much, than if any at all. Now, if he wants to knock off $500 for someone here, great. But if not, that's fine too. I think as market forces take effect and this knowledge spreads and gets diluted, the price will also come down in the future anyways (although you may be paying less for less too).

Edited May 6, 2007 by vortex

[Spectrum]

Not at all, I enjoy these discussions as they bring light to perspectives I have not considered, and they are all legitimate.

 

I'm not trying to say that David Shen should give away training to anyone who says that they are interested. I am simply trying to suggest that it may be in his interests to sponsor a taobum. It would not cost him anything and we would all benefit.

 

 

The benifit of traveling to train should not be underestimated. I realized this in 1998 when I first traveled to L.A. to train w/ the Machado Bros. The funny thing about any "system" of movement are all the gate keeping mechanisms usually in place to experience it. When you travel a lot of those mechanism simply arn't there. I have encountered this multiple times. You can learn a lot extremely fast especially with the TIME allowed yourself to focus while your travelling, as it's a given that you will be learning new things, your mind is more open to the suggestability and impression a place, people, or person has to offer.

 

 

I know that if someone with history here took up the practice that I and others would give it more serious consideration. As far as I know, anything could happen on one of these trips, perhaps he is recruiting people for nefarious purposes, perhaps he has superior methods of cultivation. Many here would like to know, but few are willing to spend time and money without some trusted verification.

 

As a student there could not be marginal costs, you have to pay for everything. But suppose your teacher let someone into the class, it costs you nothing and would cost your teacher nothing, unless it excluded another student. The same should be true for David.

 

The cost w/o trusted verification is interesting. A certain amount of seeking is off of hearsay and legend, but when someone is making claims it forces one to seek the source of the claim, in a world as small as todays, seekers are willing to travel to verify forthemselves something like the claims of dowsers about crop circles (one of my travel interests) or Taoist healers abilities in far off places.

 

Spectrum

 

PS - Another angle about this is that a group of us form that are competent in a number of contributary skillsets and shoot a documentary journalling and investigating a number of individual groups and claims associated around the Taoist internal healing arts in general.

 

There are a number of individuals on here that are in positions to network support of such a project and which would be mutually beneficial for all involved. The world is still a very big place still rich in virgin unconsumer knowledge untouched by the twiddling hands of western commercialization. There are plenty of mysteries yet to be quested. There are plenty of people still interested in seeking something other then what the 5 o clock news peddles.

 

Seek On,

 

Spectrum

Edited May 7, 2007 by Spectrum