Who would you like to see go for Lei Shan Dao training in China?

[mYTHmAKER]

FYI

 

I think that Sunshine, Darebak and myself are going. There may be a couple others from the TB that are going that I dont know about.

 

There are a number of people going ( see above) who are quite capable of reporting their experience.

Since they have committed their own money and consciously chosen to do so they will most likely see the practices through to the end.

 

If you choose me you also have to make provisions for mYTHISmAKER

[Pietro]

I love you too.

i agree with you that I shouldn't qualify because I most likely go to Denmark.

If we go by your "pure taoist" approach, Cam, Yoda or Sean shouldn't be on the list either.

 

LOL!

I might see you soon, Max.

*later edit: when I come to NY*

 

I see by your comment, and by Cam's that I have not expressed myself clearly. Yes, Yoda was involved with Buddhism, but by my understanding he

1) left those practices

2) never confused the practices of one school and tradition with the practices from another school or tradition.

 

I mean, imagine sending someone like Bill Bodri who would come back and report:

is just the same path as all the others.

 

Those who capable are either going or planning to anyway.

 

There are also people who would be capable but are simply uninterested.

And there might be people who haven't got the money. Those are the ones that could be better helped.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Pietro

[rex]

[Enter stage right]

 

Hmmm, I've got a funny feeling about this which looks a right carry on. TaoBums the face of Taoism in the West indeed!

 

How about stump up the cash for David to come and teach in the US?

 

[Exit stage left]

[Pietro]

The person we sponsor should be the best at reporting to us. The person who'd give us the best taste of actually experiencing it. To that point I'd say Yoda, who is our most prolific writer. Then I'd consider Spyrelix who wants the job and says he'd do a great job recording it for us. To that extent Trunk would be a good choice too.

 

If people are really serious, we should make it into a real vote, with Sean O, to get the final decision with regards to honest and fair counting. If we're serious someone should put it into a poll.

Michael

 

We need a poll where people can vote for all the ones that they would support.

It would be silly to require many of us who have 3 or 4 names that they would support to only vote for one.

 

What we need here is called Condercet Voting. In this system every person who votes ranks all the people who could be elected in order of how much would they want them.

It is normally complicated to then calculate the winner, as some math is involved. But lo and behold, we have the internet, and computers, and internet services, and the Condorcet Internet Voting Service. So if everybody is ok with this, I would take down the name of those who are willing to go, then the email of those who are willing to vote, and I shall set up the poll.

 

You will then receive (if I remember well from last time we used it) 3 emails. One to invite you to vote (with your personal url), one to tell you that your vote was registered, and one once all the people have voted, or we have reached the time limit that was set.

[Cameron]

I like Pietro's idea but we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. We still need to see if we have enough support for this. Like I said, 100 tao bums would have to be willing to give like $70 each(unless people start giving large amounts or something).

 

As of right now I don't see anywhere near the interest needed to make this happen .We should get that cleared up first, then implement something along the lines of what Pietro is saying.

[Trunk]

My 2 cents:

 

1) Keep the criteria for choosing people relatively broad, and then choose them out of a hat (or some other random method). And choose every frickin' one of them, write them down in order, in case #1 falls through at some point and #2-#4 already made other plans.

 

2) TTBs would just raise whatever amount we can; don't put a requirement that we'd have to raise the whole amount. Who ever is going would just make up the difference herself.

 

 

 

~~ later ~~

uh, .. btw.. if I contribute, do I get an official lineage t-shirt?

[Pietro]

Agreed with both. If we get forward with the Condercet we should also add the names of those we would like to see go, even if they don't want to go. You know just to make them in trouble.

[spyrelx]

I mean, imagine sending someone like Bill Bodri who would come back and report:

is just the same path as all the others.

 

 

 

I loved that.

[Smile]

Ok, I vote for sending Bill Bodri and Michael Winn. Just to get them in trouble.

 

Pietro, you can stay in my house if you need to.

[Yoda]

Seriously, if my schedule permitted it, I would be honored to go. I would learn a tremendous amount.

 

We definitely need a taobum or two in the mix, but it looks like we've got three all lined up. That's extremely impressive!! I hope you all share your experiences!

 

I don't know how I feel about the whole subsidizing thing... I think that paying for the teaching is often an important part of the transmission process, plus if we should subsidize a taobum it should be the first taobum who actually made the commitment to go as that individual is our best, most serious representative.

 

Regardless, it's a cool project. If we were to subsidize someone along the lines being proposed, I would rank candidates along the lines of volubility and since I'm out of the running (I'm too busy posting things), Cam is next in line with over 2,200 posts. All that hard work should be rewarded with a trip to China.

 

With the exception of SeanD, I don't think the taobums will donate enough jet fuel to clear the border, so this project is really just for a little spiritual boost.

 

Yoda

[Cameron]

I wouldn't say no. But it is a big responsibility. We should discuss it carefully and see who is really the best person to do it. For example, Spyrelx sounds like he is relatively profficient in video stuff to document the whole thing. I am guessing it would be relatively simple to do(Get a good camcorder?)

 

Sean I think would add a strong critical and scientific eye(as would I). But also respectful, etc.

[sean]

I might actually be interested. Mostly in the spirit of an adventure. Like going to review an exotic new theme park somewhere. I think I am capable of going into it with an open mind while also retaining my objective side. I've never seen a video of so called super powers that has convinced me. The video of John Chang shocking the camera woman in that one video was pretty interesting though. About as convincing and honest a reaction I've seen. Anyway, my brother is a documentary filmmaker in Los Angeles. His boss is ridiculously wealthy and seems to always be up for throwing money at unique documentary projects that could make some profit. This could have the potential to be the next "The Secret" if done well. A regular old 30-something partially anonymous internet forum yogi, sponsored by his peers to step into the limelight and undergo training from lineage masters in the mountains for all to witness. I would throw in a few hundred for this for whomever is chosen if it ends up not being me. And I may be able to convince my brother and his producer to fund it even if I were not the star. I would feel bad to take this opportunity from someone who really wanted to go. I could take it or leave it. This whole thing is not really my cup of tea as I think I've made clear. It doesn't match my (in)experience. To me the Tao is simply the truth. It doesn't change. It's very simple and natural. Inescapable. Seeking is actually just another attempt to run from what is. Awakening happens when we finally give up. That can happen now. And it can happen in China after you have accumulated five times as much knowledge and power in Taoist mysticism and are still disillusioned. Either way it's not your choice anyway so just enjoy the ride.

 

Sean

[mYTHmAKER]

I haven't heard anyone say "I really want to go" - myself included.

So as far as I'm concerned your all disqualified.

An I might be interested or a maybe I would go doesn't make the grade.

Sorry to sound so harsh.

[Cameron]

I would say I really want one of us to go. I don't say it necissarilly should be me because I think Sean O, Spyrelx etc would do a fantastic job.

 

The way I see it sending Sean or Spyrelx who aren't necissarly fantastically excited(or maybe it's just there style to be laid back?) makes the whole presentation they would make more objective and scientific.

 

If Sean had strong beleif that David Shen Verdesi's teachers can do all the amazing things he says and are Immortal etc it would be less of a reason to even do this IMO. We might as well just listen to what people on the Lei Shan Dao foundation forum say about there experience(which from what I can gather they are very limited in talking about..or don't care to).

 

Cam

[Smile]

To me the Tao is simply the truth. It doesn't change. It's very simple and natural. Inescapable. Seeking is actually just another attempt to run from what is. Awakening happens when we finally give up. That can happen now. And it can happen in China after you have accumulated five times as much knowledge and power in Taoist mysticism and are still disillusioned. Either way it's not your choice anyway so just enjoy the ride. Sean

Sometimes it's hard to separate a fantasy from reality. Look at ALL masters who said exactly the same thing you just did and see what kind of training they went through to come to this revelation. Many years of silent retreats, meditation, contemplation, etc. It all comes again to a simple point we went through some time ago: What made a master enlightened- a falling petal from a tree or 20 years of meditation? So, it is important to keep it real (i finally got to use it, yey!) and pay attention not to what people say but what they actually do/did that led to their present state.

Edited May 7, 2007 by Smile

[sean]

Sometimes it's hard to separate a fantasy from reality. Look at ALL masters who said exactly the same thing you just did and see what kind of training they went through to come to this revelation. Many years of silent retreats, meditation, contemplation, etc. It all comes again to a simple point we went through some time ago: What made a master enlightened- a falling petal from a tree or 20 years of meditation? So, it is important to keep it real (i finally got to use it, yey!) and pay attention not to what people say but what they actually do/did that led to their present state.

I totally agree. Absolutely. Keep it real! I know we've beaten this to death. Maybe it's a devil's advocate view I take, but it makes more sense to me. That enlightenment happens in spite of "advanced Taoist training". Maybe our deepest fear is that it's so simple and easy. How would we still be unique and separate if what we are seeking were readily available and attainment meant nothing special? Consider this: when the truth grabs you by the ankles and starts pulling you into the void, perhaps spiritual practice is the ego's last effort to claw at the ground and desperately try to postpone the impending failure called enlightenment.

[Smile]

Consider this: when the truth grabs you by the ankles and starts pulling you into the void, perhaps spiritual practice is the ego's last effort to claw at the ground and desperately try to postpone the impending failure called enlightenment.

Nice. But I'm not even close.

[Cameron]

if what we are seeking were readily available and attainment meant nothing special? Consider this: when the truth grabs you by the ankles and starts pulling you into the void, perhaps spiritual practice is the ego's last effort to claw at the ground and desperately try to postpone the impending failure called enlightenment.

 

 

Nothing special is the highest stage of qigong training according to Ken Cohen. The four stages he talks about in his book are:

 

1.The great expert:You just learned a qigong system other people don't know and you are pretty important.

 

2.The big potatoe:You have learned several qigong systems and are very important now.

 

3.Banana head:You have gone deeper into qigong training and like Socrates you "Know that you don't know". You feel silly about your previous self importance.

 

4. Nothing special. You finally return to nature. Things are just as they are.

[DentyDao]

Sean makes some good points. I happen to agree with some of them. What I don't agree with is the idea that the Daoist masters in China some how fail to recognize these simple truths.

 

What they offer is a profound understanding of the reality of the human condition. "The Dao, brought to you by the people who invented the Dao." These people are doing what all the others are doing, better. They coined the phrase, 'Be in the Now' and they invented 'letting go.' Wang Liping can 'non do' circles around your garden variety western guru. He'd have them driving a Benz and eating prime rib and lobster in a fortnight.

 

Spiritual training takes us quicker and more effectively into the deepest level of our true nature. Saying that it's a subconscious rebellion against facing our true nature or some kind of escapism is the real escapism. Anyone who thinks this is some elaborate vanity or ego trip is going to be in for a rude awakening.

 

Let me be very clear here. What you will learn in foundation training has nothing to do with superpowers or any of the ridicules ideas people want to project onto David and the masters he represents. Once you undertake this training, you will know how to cultivate your Dan and how to get it back if you lose it. This alone, if you are successful, would put you into the top .001 percent of people on the planet in terms of practical spiritual accomplishments. It's a tremendous blessing and comes with responsibilities and gives the ability to profoundly help others on the spiritual path. No popular guru or new age yogi can do this for you. Most of them haven't got a clue; with due exceptions of course and the understanding that there are different paths that require less understanding to reach certain accomplishments.

 

Never mind Lei Shan Dao training, GOOD GRIEF, which you wouldn't be ready to undertake unless you are far beyond the first little flirtations with the awakening process.

 

So I ask you again, do you want to play on the porch with the pooch, or do you want to run in the yard with the big dogs? Up to you.

Edited May 7, 2007 by seandenty

[Cameron]

Sean D,

 

I think this is a great idea and hope to see one of us get to do this but please, as a basic respect, refrain from comparing your teacher(or your teachers teacher) to any of our teachers. Each human being has there own worth and you can't possibly say from your vantage point(even if you are hooked in with the 'God men') what ultimate good dharma activity one teacher will do or how much "better" they are than another.

 

I am not even presuming Adyashanti(Or any western teacher) is on the same level as Wang LiPing(or whoever) but to make these sort of comparisons I think brings down the level of our conversations and respect here.

 

What I am basically saying is I think even if there is truth to what your saying(I don't think Adya would even have a problem being called inferior to Wang LiPing, he would probably laugh at the comparison) We simply don't need to resort to this kind of grade school level communication.

 

Respectfully,

 

Cameron

[DentyDao]

My comment was not meant in a serious way. Adyshanti and his followers have my respect and since I have never met Ady, I'm not qualified to comment on his qualifications or his teaching. Just illustrating a point and, your right, I'm sure he could care less.

[Cameron]

Ok. I have met him. Sean has met him. We are doing a retreat with him this year. No big deal.

 

I think the work you are doing is too important to let this little issue of manners get in the way. You really have too much to offer and it's way too interesting. Just as a courtesy if you could just refrain from that kind of silly comparisons I would appreciate it.

 

Actually, truth be told, Adyashanti has made a point in both of the intensives I went to that in his opinion Taoists explain reality really well.

 

All respect to Master Wang LiPing on just reputation alone.

[DentyDao]

Ok. I have met him. Sean has met him. We are doing a retreat with him this year. No big deal. just..like..I wouldn't say XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Of course your right Cameron.... CONTENT EDITED FOR SHOCKING WITTY, BUT TOTALLY INFANTILE REMARKS

 

I have edited my post, replacing Adyshanti's name with 'western spiritual guru.' I hope this more sensative approach will repair any love lost.

 

As for my wife, let's just say she quite capable of defending her own honor.

Edited May 7, 2007 by seandenty

[Cameron]

 

I removed the silly comment about peoples girlfriends or wives. No love lost. I still think your a cool dude. Can we still be friends?

 

Let's just keep this focused on your/your teachers work and not bring comparisons to other peoples work and I think this whole thing will sail smoothly.

 

Cam

[DentyDao]

I have in turn edited my post regarding peoples sexual experience. Tushay! (or however you spell it) Let the smooth sailing continue!