Pleasure of the Self Vs Discipline of the Self

[Urpflanze]

I am sorry if the thread may not fit entirely within the framework of this forum, but to my knowledge, I couldn't find a better place.

 

On one side, we have Austin Osman Spare - a major influence in Chaos Magick, who believed that there is no path more natural to the "goal" than to indulge in the pleasure of the self. One has to merge in the flesh. Manifesting desires on cryptic sigils and chrging them with masturbation and similar grotesque techniques. On the other side, we have Taoism, the core tenets of which are founded on the belief that one cannot reach the "goal" unless he learns to discipline the self. One has to transcend the flesh

 

I really don't know how to fit these two different belief-systems into a consistent whole.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Urpflanze

[Apech]

I am sorry if the thread may not fit entirely within the framework of this forum, but to my knowledge, I couldn't find a better place.

 

On one side, we have Austin Osman Spare - a major influence in Chaos Magick, who believed that there is no path more natural to the "goal" than to indulge in the pleasure of the self. One has to merge in the flesh. Manifesting desires on cryptic sigils and chrging them with masturbation and similar grotesque techniques. On the other side, we have Taoism, the core tenets of which are founded on the belief that one cannot reach the "goal" unless he learns to discipline the self. One has to transcend the flesh

 

I really don't know how to fit these two different belief-systems into a consistent whole.

 

Expressed like that I don't think you can fit these two together. But I would question your definition of Taoism ...transcending the flesh doesn't sound very Taoist to me ... where did you get this from?

[roger]

Hi Urpflanze. I enjoyed reading your post and I have some things to say about it.

 

There are two seemingly OPPOSITE approaches to liberation, but they have the SAME goal.

 

You mentioned INDULGENCE, and the other way is RENUNCIATION.

 

BOTH are valid approaches, and IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL which path is RIGHT FOR HIM/HER.

 

There is no right or wrong path. It depends on the needs and desires of each individual. Some prefer indulgence, some prefer renunciation. The key is to follow the path of your HEART. Follow the path that gives you the most JOY. Some people find sensual pleasures a burden and distraction. They prefer to focus exclusively on spiritual liberation. Others find SPIRITUAL fulfillment by indulging themselves, and eventually go beyond the attachment to or need for extreme indulgence.

 

Shortly after I got on the path, I renounced many things, in the belief that renunciation is the way to liberation. I quit smoking and drinking, I gave of all forms of sexual pleasure, I quit listening to the radio, I changed my sleeping habits, I became a vegetarian, I quit drinking caffeine, I even quit THINKING and would meditate all day long as I went through the day.

 

This change lasted a little over a year. I then decided that it was okay for me to have pleasure and I took a path of indulgence.

 

I think some people take a path of renunciation, and LATER begin to just do as they please, as I did.

 

I feel that for most people in this day and age, the "middle path" is very appropriate, which is what Buddha taught. In the middle path, you don't go to extremes, you indulge, but you don't OVER-indulge. You strike a BALANCE between indulgence and healthy self-discipline.

 

The middle path seems to me to be the most effective and self-loving approach.

[RiverSnake]

All of us our going to transcend the flesh eventually via death. I would see Taoism more as learning to work and live in harmony with Heaven and Earth rather than trying to escape one to get to the other.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[SonOfTheGods]

why grotesque?

grotesque techniques.