Chapter 1, Section 3 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Chapter 1: Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

Section 3: Judgement energies

 

Concepts discussed in Chapter 1, Section 3 are:

 

Relativity of magnitudes, physical and moral

 

The magnitude absolute

 

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html

 

(Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1)

Edited August 18, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Has anyone seen this yet?

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I am in preparation all morning..........

[ChiDragon]

After Zhuang Tze said about the Kun and Peng, then he said something about "little knowledge and big knowledge", "small year and big year". The mushroom doesn't know that there was a beginning or the end of the day. A cicada doesn't have any knowledge about the period in length of a year. It is because due to their short lifespan and the characteristic of limitation of things. Each living thing has its own characteristic and limitations. Therefore, there is a difference in their knowledge and intuition. ZZ was not really emphasized by the observation on the physical size of the living things, such in big or small nor long or shot. Actually, he was using the difference in images and the period of life experience as similes for an evaluational judgement. The characteristic of all things has more limitations than humans. Humans can move forward for advancement. However, at the time, people were only sufficed with their present moment. They didn't realize that they can pursuit another target at a higher level. Hence, he mentioned the gigantic Peng bird that no one has ever heard of to enlighten people that there are even more profound and higher target to be aimed for.

Zhuang Tze was not really emphasizing that something small is more inferior than something big. In ZZ's thinking about "wander with complete freedom" with all things integrated as a whole, then how can he said there is a difference in big and small....???

Edited August 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[rene]

To me, Zz used three actors (Peng, quail, Master Lieh) to represent 3 levels of spiritual attainment.

 

Quail = earthly, temporal;

Peng=heavenly, ethereal;

Master Lieh= numinous, the blending of both.

 

The overall 'message', I suppose, was don't go get up all actin' like you're Master Lieh - even if you're Peng - until you have the numinous well in hand.

 

Maybe good advice.

 

(I find nothing in idea or concept in conflict w/Lz)

[Marblehead]

I think we cah also see where ZZ is suggesting that we should not judge anything from any prespective other than its own.

 

The quail is at its level, the Peng is at its level and Master Lieh is at his level.

 

To judege anything by statdards other than its own is an error.

[ChiDragon]

MH...

Can you clarify what do you by "other than its own".........???

[rene]

I think we cah also see where ZZ is suggesting that we should not judge anything from any prespective other than its own.

 

The quail is at its level, the Peng is at its level and Master Lieh is at his level.

 

To judege anything by statdards other than its own is an error.

 

Could be, sure. I can only give my own take on what I see. (-:

[Marblehead]

Could be, sure. I can only give my own take on what I see. (-:

Yeah, I know. But I'm trying to inspire you to see more. Hehehe.

[rene]

Yeah, I know. But I'm trying to inspire you to see more. Hehehe.

And I try to inspire you to not read in to something - what might not be there. (-:

Oh! That's another thing I didn't like about Zz ! He did that all the time with Lz's simplicity!

Thanks for reminding me!

[Marblehead]

And I try to inspire you to not read in to something - what might not be there. (-:

Oh! That's another thing I didn't like about Zz ! He did that all the time with Lz's simplicity!

Thanks for reminding me!

You're going to love him before this study is over. Hehehe.

[rene]

You're going to love him before this study is over. Hehehe.

 

[Marblehead]

MH...

 

Can you clarify what do you by "other than its own".........???

Yes, I will try. I have spoken to this concept before in different threads because I think it is an important concept. I just wish I was better at transferring my thoughts into words on a computer screen. Anyhow,

 

 

Each of the Ten Thousand Things are special and unique. We cannot compare (Chuang Tzu story) a horse with a cat. Sure, the horse ran run for many miles carrying a man on its back. But it cannot catch mice. So we judge a horse according to horses, in general, and we judge a cat according to cats, in general.

 

There are men and there are women. Beside the difference in their sex, we cannot judge Hitler based on someone like Mother Teresa. We judge them both against what we consider standard for each. Hitler caused many people much pain and suffering, Mother Teresa eased the pain and suffering of many people.

 

This is why I will always argue against someone saying that we are all One. No, we are not, we are individual pieces of the whole. We are of the same source, but we are not the same. We all, all of the Ten Thousand Things, are unique and special. Even Hitler was special in his own way - with supreme power he single-handedly got hin country into a war that he could not win.

 

Let's say I have two cars, one has a blown engine and the other is in perfect condition. Which would I judge to be of the most valuable?

 

Just like the Peng and the Quail. The Peng is so large she needs to climb that high in order to fly effeciently. The Quail has no need to fly that high because it can find everything it needs amongst the trees and bushes.

[Marblehead]

One little piggie went to market, one little piggie stayed home and read The Chuang Tzu.

[rene]

I'll be the one that eats Roast Beef.

[Uroboros]

Yes, I will try. I have spoken to this concept before in different threads because I think it is an important concept. I just wish I was better at transferring my thoughts into words on a computer screen. Anyhow,

 

 

Each of the Ten Thousand Things are special and unique. We cannot compare (Chuang Tzu story) a horse with a cat. Sure, the horse ran run for many miles carrying a man on its back. But it cannot catch mice. So we judge a horse according to horses, in general, and we judge a cat according to cats, in general.

 

There are men and there are women. Beside the difference in their sex, we cannot judge Hitler based on someone like Mother Teresa. We judge them both against what we consider standard for each. Hitler caused many people much pain and suffering, Mother Teresa eased the pain and suffering of many people.

 

This is why I will always argue against someone saying that we are all One. No, we are not, we are individual pieces of the whole. We are of the same source, but we are not the same. We all, all of the Ten Thousand Things, are unique and special. Even Hitler was special in his own way - with supreme power he single-handedly got hin country into a war that he could not win.

 

Let's say I have two cars, one has a blown engine and the other is in perfect condition. Which would I judge to be of the most valuable?

 

Just like the Peng and the Quail. The Peng is so large she needs to climb that high in order to fly effeciently. The Quail has no need to fly that high because it can find everything it needs amongst the trees and bushes.

 

There is, I feel, the paradox. We are all unique expressions of the whole, yet we are still of the whole.

 

So we are not separate, yet we are. We are individuals, yet we are not.

 

Fun.

 

Peace.

[Uroboros]

There was Master Lieh (Lieh Tzu), who rode on the wind and pursued his way with an admirable indifference (to all external things), returning, however, after fifteen days, (to his place). In regard to the things that (are supposed to) contribute to happiness, he was free from all endeavours to obtain them; but though he had not to walk, there was still something for which he had to wait. But suppose one who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable, – what has he to wait for'? Therefore it is said, 'The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame.'

 

This part pokes my curiosity. Well, the whole part does but this in particular. The rest of this section flows until here.

 

Now they are talking about indifference, riding wind, happiness without effort... and waiting...What is this talk of waiting?

 

Waiting for/ on what? Life? hmm....

 

The rest of it, I feel has already been explained.

 

I dunno what this part is about, yet....

 

Peace.

[Uroboros]

Thinking on it and seeing what the translator wrote, I can see how they are talking about perspectives and levels.

 

How to not judge someone just because you are different from them. We each have our own nature. Thats what makes life, life.

 

They may even be saying, hey dummy! You think you are great? Well, what about this?

 

Something along those lines. theres a trend in humanity to take a small achievement and make it grand, not realizing there is something larger/ grander still ahead.

 

Then, they never get to the grand place because they are stuck thinking they are at the grandest.

 

Some thoughts.

Peace

 

Edit- I want to add, that compassion also helps. Instead of judging the Peng/ quail for being who they are, could show compassion and accept them for what they are, as they are.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Uroboros

[ChiDragon]

Uroboros....
I am glad that you are reading ZZ as parables, not like others reading it as the TTC. It is because you are not reading it object by object nor line by line. That is the right approach to read ZZ......

[Uroboros]

Uroboros....

I am glad that you are reading ZZ as parables, not like others reading it as the TTC. It is because you are not reading it object by object nor line by line. That is the right approach to read ZZ......

 

 

 

hehe, it seems to be written as parables/ stories...even though the lines themselves sometimes seem to contain deeper wisdom, the stories themselves are very different in how they are put together then the TTC....

 

Who knows! The ZZ might have meant some parts to be like TTC...others not so much.

 

Maybe its layered. A story within a story. hahah.

 

Peace

[ChiDragon]

Just like the Peng and the Quail. The Peng is so large she needs to climb that high in order to fly effeciently. The Quail has no need to fly that high because it can find everything it needs amongst the trees and bushes.

 

I was afraid that you might say that.......

Edited August 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

There is, I feel, the paradox. We are all unique expressions of the whole, yet we are still of the whole.

 

So we are not separate, yet we are. We are individuals, yet we are not.

 

Fun.

 

Peace.

Yes. You said that well enough for me to not need to make further comment.

[Marblehead]

This part pokes my curiosity. Well, the whole part does but this in particular. The rest of this section flows until here.

Well, let's see if I can add to the confusion.

 

Now they are talking about indifference, riding wind, happiness without effort... and waiting...What is this talk of waiting?

We are being primed here for the concept of 'wu wei'. A covert action here by Chuang Tzu that we will see time and time again. He is getting our brain ready for when he does start talking about it.

 

Yes, waiting. When there is nothing to do we simply wait until there is something to do. And really, if you had nothing to do and could live spontaneously wouldn't you be pretty happy? I promise you, inner happiness arrives without effort after we have made room for it to enter.

 

Waiting for/ on what? Life? hmm....

Waiting for something that will move him. The 'riding the wind' is a perfect example. (The wind here should really be interpreted as Tao.)

 

Al though he can ride the wind there first must be wind on which to ride. So he waits. He is in a state of 'wu wei'. There is nothing to do so nothing is done. Waiting for life to call him into action.

 

The rest of it, I feel has already been explained.

Great.

 

 

I dunno what this part is about, yet....

 

Peace.

I hope this inspires some thought.

[Marblehead]

Something along those lines. theres a trend in humanity to take a small achievement and make it grand, not realizing there is something larger/ grander still ahead.

I have a saying, probably stole it from someone else but that doesn't matter, that goes: Even the smallest of advances lead to the greatest of victories.

 

For small things, small victories are great.

 

For large things, large victories are required.

 

 

I'm not ready to talk about compassion yet as Chuang Tzu hasn't alluded to it yet but it is forthcoming, I assure you. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

 

I was afraid that you might say that.......

Well, of course I was going to mention it at some point. You know me.