Chapter 1, Section 3 Concepts

[Marblehead]

I'll be the one that eats Roast Beef.

Yeah, you go ahead and 'wu wei' and enjoy your Roast Beef. Hehehe. But when something else needs be done you are going to do it. We just have to wait for that intuitional inspiration.

[Uroboros]

Well, let's see if I can add to the confusion.

 

We are being primed here for the concept of 'wu wei'. A covert action here by Chuang Tzu that we will see time and time again. He is getting our brain ready for when he does start talking about it.

 

Yes, waiting. When there is nothing to do we simply wait until there is something to do. And really, if you had nothing to do and could live spontaneously wouldn't you be pretty happy? I promise you, inner happiness arrives without effort after we have made room for it to enter.

 

Waiting for something that will move him. The 'riding the wind' is a perfect example. (The wind here should really be interpreted as Tao.)

 

Al though he can ride the wind there first must be wind on which to ride. So he waits. He is in a state of 'wu wei'. There is nothing to do so nothing is done. Waiting for life to call him into action.

 

Great.

 

 

I hope this inspires some thought.

 

Oh, wow. Thank you, MH! That helps allot... I can see now how that section is priming for Wu-Wei....

 

I had not thought of that before. Hehe, you didnt add to my confusion, you helped clarify it!

 

Which will eventually create new confusion. hah.

 

Interesting...

 

Is the Wu in Wu-Wei, the same Wu as in Wu and Yu?

 

If so, is there a Yu- Wei?

 

Hmm....Im going to have to contemplate the Wu-Wei thread in that section.hehe.

 

Peace

[Uroboros]

I have a saying, probably stole it from someone else but that doesn't matter, that goes: Even the smallest of advances lead to the greatest of victories.

 

For small things, small victories are great.

 

For large things, large victories are required.

 

 

I'm not ready to talk about compassion yet as Chuang Tzu hasn't alluded to it yet but it is forthcoming, I assure you. Hehehe.

 

Mmm....Longest journey, single step.

 

Hmm...that is another aspect to it. I know I can get so focused on the big, I do not see the small victories.

 

See both. Experience both, eh. Tis a wonderful way.

 

How do we know which is a small thing and which is large? Especially if we think the small thing is large or the large small?

 

Ok, good. Compassion is a big one. I look forward to delving into that!

 

Peace

[Marblehead]

Yeah, for right now I think your thought of finding that (those) wu wei threads and reading through them is a good idea.

 

Rene and Chidragon can speak nicely on wu and yu when they feel the time is right (if they don't get into an arguement, Hehehe).

[Marblehead]

How do we know which is a small thing and which is large? Especially if we think the small thing is large or the large small?

I'm afraid that mostly comes with experience. Just like not being attached to success and failure.

[Uroboros]

I'm afraid that mostly comes with experience. Just like not being attached to success and failure.

 

Hahaha. The answer that gives no definite answer......How very..Taoist?

 

I know what you mean, though. Thru experience we learn how to refine our awareness of things....

[ChiDragon]

Interesting...

Is the Wu in Wu-Wei, the same Wu as in Wu and Yu?

If so, is there a Yu- Wei?

 

Yes, Wu(無) and Yu(有) are complementary to each other. So is Wu Wei(無為) and Yu Wei(有為).

 

Wu Wei(無為): have no intention(to commit an act); let Nature take its course and be natural.

Yu Wei(有為): Have an intention(to commit an act); interfere with the course of Nature which considered to be unnatural.

Edited August 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Uroboros]

Yes, Wu(無) and Yu(有) are complementary to each other. So is Wu Wei(無為) and Yu Wei(有為).

 

Wu Wei(無為): have no intention(to commit an act); let Nature take its course and be natural.

Yu Wei(有為): Have an intention(to commit an act); interfere with the course of Nature which considered to be unnatural.

 

Interesting....Then what most people strive for is Yu-Wei....Action springing forth from conscious intention.

 

Wu-Wei...can you truly be in Wu-Wei/ embody it, if you do not yet have a root in your original nature?

 

Hm.....Why do they speak about Wu-Wei as the goal and not Yu-Wei?

 

 

 

Yeah, for right now I think your thought of finding that (those) wu wei threads and reading through them is a good idea.

 

Rene and Chidragon can speak nicely on wu and yu when they feel the time is right (if they don't get into an arguement, Hehehe).

 

Are there any Wu-Wei threads on here? Im pretty sure there used to be yet I cant find em now. HAH!

 

Strange.

 

Peace

[Marblehead]

Are there any Wu-Wei threads on here? Im pretty sure there used to be yet I cant find em now. HAH!

 

Strange.

 

Peace

Yes, there have been a couple (few?). I will look later to see if I can find them.

[Uroboros]

Yes, there have been a couple (few?). I will look later to see if I can find them.

 

I thought so, too. Searching for Wu-Wei brings up nothing and I dont see any listed when I look thru Taoist Section..

 

still, some really good threads on here. Reading some on Te and Ch 2 of TTC...Really great perspectives here.

 

Heh, thats what we are doing with ZZ...seeing it from mutliple angles so we can see a more comprehensive, wide view.

 

LIKE PENG!

 

hahaha

[ChiDragon]

Interesting....Then what most people strive for is Yu-Wei....Action springing forth from conscious intention.

Wu-Wei...can you truly be in Wu-Wei/ embody it, if you do not yet have a root in your original nature?

Hm.....Why do they speak about Wu-Wei as the goal and not Yu-Wei?

 

 

Are there any Wu-Wei threads on here? Im pretty sure there used to be yet I cant find em now. HAH!

 

Yes, now you got hooked on Wu Wei.......!!!

 

In order to be Wu Wei, the initial intend was to be Yu Wei to get to Wu Wei. Wu Wei is a patented term of Lao Tze, so to speak. However, to be more exactly, Wu Wei is not to interfere with Nature to cause any harm. Not causing harm to Nature is Lao Tze's primary concern. Wu Wei is to keep Nature in harmony. Lao Tze thinks interrupting Nature will cause it to go off balance. Thu this is the goal of Wu Wei we are striving for instead of Yu Wei.

 

How does Wu Wei applied in one's life....??? There are many examples almost anyone can think of. For instance, if I am forcing you to believe what I believe, then I am interfering your personal thinking. Thus I was not being Wu Wei because I have interrupted the course of your life.

 

Yes, there are few threads about Wu Wei but it is many many pages back in the Taoist Discussion section. Let me see if I can find them....!!!

[ChiDragon]

Here are two thread in the TTB:
http://thetaobums.com/topic/26925-interpretations-of-wu-wei/

http://thetaobums.com/topic/22132-what-is-wu-wei/

Edited August 19, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

You done good Dragon. I was just getting ready to post the link to the first one you posted.

[Uroboros]

Thank you, CD! I will read those soon! Hehe, seems they alluded me! Not for long......

 

Thank you, MH! You both been mighty helpful like.

[Uroboros]

Yes, now you got hooked on Wu Wei.......!!!

 

In order to be Wu Wei, the initial intend was to be Yu Wei to get to Wu Wei. Wu Wei is a patented term of Lao Tze, so to speak. However, to be more exactly, Wu Wei is not to interfere with Nature to cause any harm. Not causing harm to Nature is Lao Tze's primary concern. Wu Wei is to keep Nature in harmony. Lao Tze thinks interrupting Nature will cause it to go off balance. Thu this is the goal of Wu Wei we are striving for instead of Yu Wei.

 

How does Wu Wei applied in one's life....??? There are many examples almost anyone can think of. For instance, if I am forcing you to believe what I believe, then I am interfering your personal thinking. Thus I was not being Wu Wei because I have interrupted the course of your life.

 

Yes, there are few threads about Wu Wei but it is many many pages back in the Taoist Discussion section. Let me see if I can find them....!!!

 

Interesting....So you use the Yu to enter into the Wu...I can see how that would work.

 

Sort of like how we start meditating (intention) to enter into emptiness (wu)...then once we are there at a certain point, it becomes natural and no intention is needed to "get" us there?

 

Nature? As in nature all around us and our original nature?

 

Not forcing someone to be other then they are....hmm...I will ponder this and read those threads.

 

Thank you for explaining me some things, CD..

[rene]

Interesting....So you use the Yu to enter into the Wu...I can see how that would work.

 

Sort of like how we start meditating (intention) to enter into emptiness (wu)...then once we are there at a certain point, it becomes natural and no intention is needed to "get" us there?

 

Nature? As in nature all around us and our original nature?

 

Not forcing someone to be other then they are....hmm...I will ponder this and read those threads.

 

Thank you for explaining me some things, CD..

 

Wu and Yu are never separate. Like standing in the colorado river and standing in it's water. No separation, no where to "get" to between one or the other. Perspective.

[dawei]

Has anyone seen this yet?

 

Well... that was the day of rest after all

[dawei]

To me, Zz used three actors (Peng, quail, Master Lieh) to represent 3 levels of spiritual attainment.

 

Quail = earthly, temporal;

Peng=heavenly, ethereal;

Master Lieh= numinous, the blending of both.

 

The overall 'message', I suppose, was don't go get up all actin' like you're Master Lieh - even if you're Peng - until you have the numinous well in hand.

 

Maybe good advice.

 

(I find nothing in idea or concept in conflict w/Lz)

 

I know we often both share a both/and perspective but my feeling might lean towards Master Lieh as the top echelon; Numinous is Spiritual attainment.

 

But your idea of mixing (Lieh) does offer an understanding to flying (Peng) on the earth (Quail).

[dawei]

I think we cah also see where ZZ is suggesting that we should not judge anything from any prespective other than its own.

 

The quail is at its level, the Peng is at its level and Master Lieh is at his level.

 

To judege anything by statdards other than its own is an error.

 

That is true but the flip side is also part of the message:

 

Don't judge (glory self): and don't care if your judged (disgrace self).

 

Lieh was 'boundless'... those that fret about the above idea are 'bound' by their boundaries...

[dawei]

Uroboros... please be careful of self-interested definitions of Wu-wei and the excitement that some have to proclaim its meaning as harm... bring morality into this is so far off track.

As the Philosophy Department at the University of Hong Kong has written:

The "Inner Chapters" of The Zhuangzi mostly avoided the wu-wei slogan. It is far more frequent in theLaozi influenced "outer Chapters."

 

And it is funny to note that there was some chastising to bring LZ into a discussion of ZZ... but that is what has happened in particular forcefulness now... Just beware of what you read; don't believe everything; question everything. Even this.

 

I would say that ZZ is engaging us in a concept of Wu wei, he just doesn't need to use any description or word for it... It is one's own nature or natural following which occurs for Peng, Quail, Lieh, etc... No judgments needed. No harm comes into the equation. It happens as it happens for each in the realm in which they exist.

[dawei]

Wu and Yu are never separate. Like standing in the colorado river and standing in it's water. No separation, no where to "get" to between one or the other. Perspective.

 

In a way, this is very much a ZZ idea... as LZ does develop the dualistic idea more so... but nice to see how you bring it all together very simply.

[rene]

I know we often both share a both/and perspective but my feeling might lean towards Master Lieh as the top echelon; Numinous is Spiritual attainment.

 

But your idea of mixing (Lieh) does offer an understanding to flying (Peng) on the earth (Quail).

 

No "but" needed, we're in agreement. My post was unclear, I was lazy. Should have typed:

 

 

Quail = earthly, temporal;

Peng=heavenly, ethereal;

Master Lieh= numinous, the blending of both Quail and Peng - i.e. Both, i.e. spiritual attainment

 

same same (-:

 

 

edit: re above post, kind words, thanks!

Edited August 20, 2013 by rene

[rene]

Uroboros... please be careful of self-interested definitions of Wu-wei and the excitement that some have to proclaim its meaning as harm... bring morality into this is so far off track.

 

As the Philosophy Department at the University of Hong Kong has written:

The "Inner Chapters" of The Zhuangzi mostly avoided the wu-wei slogan. It is far more frequent in theLaozi influenced "outer Chapters."

 

And it is funny to note that there was some chastising to bring LZ into a discussion of ZZ... but that is what has happened in particular forcefulness now... Just beware of what you read; don't believe everything; question everything. Even this.

 

I would say that ZZ is engaging us in a concept of Wu wei, he just doesn't need to use any description or word for it... It is one's own nature or natural following which occurs for Peng, Quail, Lieh, etc... No judgments needed. No harm comes into the equation. It happens as it happens for each in the realm in which they exist.

 

Warrants repeating in total. Especially the bolded bits. Well met.

[Uroboros]

Uroboros... please be careful of self-interested definitions of Wu-wei and the excitement that some have to proclaim its meaning as harm... bring morality into this is so far off track.

 

As the Philosophy Department at the University of Hong Kong has written:

The "Inner Chapters" of The Zhuangzi mostly avoided the wu-wei slogan. It is far more frequent in theLaozi influenced "outer Chapters."

 

And it is funny to note that there was some chastising to bring LZ into a discussion of ZZ... but that is what has happened in particular forcefulness now... Just beware of what you read; don't believe everything; question everything. Even this.

 

I would say that ZZ is engaging us in a concept of Wu wei, he just doesn't need to use any description or word for it... It is one's own nature or natural following which occurs for Peng, Quail, Lieh, etc... No judgments needed. No harm comes into the equation. It happens as it happens for each in the realm in which they exist.

 

Thank you for the advice! No worries. I know Wu-Wei and Te have little to do with morality. Morality itself is a concept I care little for.

 

We each have our own idea as to what is right or wrong. That seems to fit nature far more then absolutes.

 

What I think Wu- Wei is, is a state or way of being....thats about where I am. haha.

 

Peace.

[Uroboros]

Wu and Yu are never separate. Like standing in the colorado river and standing in it's water. No separation, no where to "get" to between one or the other. Perspective.

 

Hmm...Ok. Wu and Yu are always together. Like words and meaning. The meaning is not the word and vice versa...

 

One can be seen/ heard, the other can only be felt. Sort of like that?

 

If Wu an Yu are always together....how does one Wu-Wei? It a shift in perspective? In the moment, shifting gears, per say?

 

Such a strange yet powerful concept....Grr. haha.