The MCO is Taoist fundamentalism

[Starjumper]

'Doin' the MCO is Taoist fundamentalism, and it gets you the kinds of results that you would expect from fundamentalism.

[Apech]

'Doin' the MCO is Taoist fundamentalism, and it gets you the kinds of results that you would expect from fundamentalism.

 

I think it would help if you expanded this a little because I don't really understand what you are saying.

[Uroboros]

There are, in my experience, different "layers", though.

 

There is a common, superficial opening of the MCO that does not completely open the Three Gates.

 

Plus, how do we differentiate between our minds and Qi?

 

Meaning, we can visualize it and then a feeling manifests....did we truly open it? Its already open to a certain extent, it would have to be.

 

Did we truly open the Three Gates and transform the current way it operates?

 

What effects have happened?

 

Most important question, IMHO, has the practice transformed/ changed the way I experience life?

 

Some things to ponder.

 

Peace.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

'Doin' the MCO is Taoist fundamentalism, and it gets you the kinds of results that you would expect from fundamentalism.

I'm a fundamentalist gamer.

And a fundamentalist breather, but not as hardcore as some MCO breathers

 

But i am first and foremost a fundamentalist thinker.

And i think your thoughts are only half complete.

[Apech]

Por favor explique lo que quiere decir.

[Starjumper]

Por favor explique lo que quiere decir.

OK, en un rato, quiero ver que mas escriben.

[Apech]

OK, en un rato, quiero ver que mas escriben.

 

Claro, esta bien.

[teknix]

'Doin' the MCO is Taoist fundamentalism, and it gets you the kinds of results that you would expect from fundamentalism.

 

I like this train of thought . . .

 

I think that the phenomena that MCO describes is more than the basis for itself, but the basis of all spirituality.

 

Each just has their own way to describe it with their own focus in some cases.

 

I personally think that there are other adequate methods to describe the phenomena rather than to subscribe to any particular one ..

[Starjumper]

OK, there are a lot of aspects to this practice, and what it does, but more importatnly, what it doesn't do, and it is NOT safe. Safety is important in energy cultivation.

 

1. When you direct energy in your body for a practice then that is considered to be a hard style because you are forcing it. Forcing it, particularly by a beginner, can cause problems, and hard styles, forcing things, go contrary to the Way. It also tends to make people die young. As it sez in the TTC, those who do the hard styles do not last long (in general), so all that directing of energy and stress and tension exercises made popular by someone who shall remain namele$$, is not so good for longevity.

 

For achieving health and longevity a practice must be as soft and relaxed as possible.

 

2. The MCO is included in most types of chi kung as a moving exercise, where you focus on the movement and the movement automatically moves the energy in the proper way without your ever having to think about it, and it does it much better than the mind can. Doing the MCO with body movement is NOT fundamentalist, particularly if it is part of a whole system of movements and isn't just a stand alone exercise. So sitting around with your finger in your nose, doin or pretending to do the MCO is, inneficient, or doesn't work, or causes damage, and is kind of a waste of time compared to doing a more wholistic practice, because when you do it with movement it also helps with other things.

 

3. There are many many energy flows in the body, and to focus mainly on one of them is neglecting the rest of the body. Maybe your body needs more energy work somewhere else. If you do chi kung soft style, no directing energy, then the energy will automatically go where it is needed most for healing. Sending it instead into the MCO is slowing down progress if not causing irreversible damage.

 

The way my teacher, who was one of th emost powerful chi kung masters in the world, put it: "If you do the MCO it is like training a dog to stay, so when you need the dog for help it will not come." In other words the MCO does absolutely nothing for cultivating the kind of chi power that would be used for Jedi type stuff, for example. Nor does it free up more energy to go where it may be needed for self healing. It's like water wearing a groove in a rock, once the groove is there the water will not leave.

 

Not only is the MCO not that important (the central channel is more important) but according to common knowledge there are many energy meridians in the body that should all be worked equally with energy, and this is what a powerful system will do. According to uncommon knowledge, there are no energy meridians in the body, energy flows through every fiber of your body.

 

4. I've seen a couple of people who developed some serious health problems fas a result of doing the MCO, and when I asked my teacher about healing them he said he would never heal a person who had hurt themselves by doing chi kung incorrectly.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Starjumper

[LCH]

Thank you for your elaboration.

 

Which MCO are you speaking of? There are multiple. I think your concerns are valid, and I am interested to see others who have consistently practiced the MCO to chime in about their own personal experiences with it.

 

I will add if someone isn't very grounded, and generally is carrying around a lot of unprocessed emotional energy, this sort of stuff CAN be dangerous.

 

Qi deviation syndrome is a very legitimate "ailment" in my experience.

 

I practice the bringing up in the back and letting it fall in the front. I find that this feels very natural to me and it by no means forced. There are others I have learned, but I do not feel compelled to pursue them at this point as they tend to run against my normal qi flow.

[ChiDragon]

'Doin' the MCO is Taoist fundamentalism, and it gets you the kinds of results that you would expect from fundamentalism.

 

Doing the MCO is not Taoist fundamentalism. Wu Wei is.

MCO is only a process for Taoists to attain a condition for a healthier body.

[Apech]

I never understood forcing. And I agree its not good. But I suspect you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

I learned the MCO after having meditated for a long time and being able to feel qi anyway (naturally). So when I was shown this technique it was introduced as simply resting your mind on a series of places in the body and relaxing into that. Later I learned abdominal breathing but again in a relaxed natural way such that you are allowing the body to do what it wants to do ... and this stimulates the qi.

 

I don't do this practice regularly but on occasion when I feel blocked or stagnant qi I do it gently ... in the same way as you would stretch like a cat if you felt a bit tired or stiff. It works well. I have also noticed that if the MCO opens and the governing and conception channels are 'working' it frees up other meridians (arms, legs and belt) and some minor ailments like sore joints or whatever are cured quite quickly.

 

Just my experience ... very little from books.

[DeadDragon]

For me the small universe and standing meditations from Master Lin has helped me with depression, anxiety, instantaneously healing muscle pain, helping heal a sprained ankle in 1 hour after 1 day of spraining it back to full function, releasing me from most addictions except those pesky cigarettes. Within a couple of months of every day practice (consistency is key).

I require less sleep, food and water if my practice goes smoothly, with more energy to take on life. Which it doesn't always go smoothly in which case it can cause minor problems like headaches. Though Master Lin teaches so many practical and wonderful things, a lot of it going beyond healing, including a few techniques to stop a headache.

 

It doesn't go smoothly because I "think" something is going wrong (after all I have read many of these posts about how doing the MCO is bad). I "think" that maybe I'm putting too much energy into my head (because I know the channels there are narrow, supposedly), I "think" my energy is getting stuck somewhere in other places too, getting nervous about it. I "think" that what I'm doing might actually be dangerous.

When really just relaxing, reminding myself the energy can flow perfectly smoothly, that all blockages are gone, everything is being perfectly balanced, releasing any unhelpful information accumulated, it will flow properly and the pain disappears. Just by using messages and intentions, the energy knows how to best balance itself and where / how it is best to flow. Which doesn't always align with your focus as you go through the orbit, and it's best not to force anything.

 

It's not just rotating energy. There's more to it than that.

 

Messages are powerful things. It has been scientifically proven that a plant with the word "Love" taped to its container will grow much healthier and fuller as opposed to a plant with the word "Hate" taped to it...which will not be too healthy at all. Given the exact same growing conditions.

He says that doing the small universe will open blockages all throughout your body. It is like the great ocean that all rivers flow into, or something like that. I have no reason to disbelieve him, and it does work. For example doing pushups and leg lifts and my arms / legs have that acidic muscle pain. After doing the small universe it immediately disappears. (I never used to exercise previous to my small universe meditation practice, heh)

The technique or posture doesn't matter so much, as long as you feel it is working, or you enjoy it or it resonates with you. Personally I like the small universe. As I was told, it's not necessary to learn any techniques beyond the stuff in level 1. That you can go deeper and deeper just using those meditations.

 

I think bringing any excess energy back to your center (lower dan tien), and starting from that point is always important no matter what type or school of meditation you do. By imagining it spiraling or spinning clockwise when ending. And also keeping the tongue against the roof of your mouth and keeping your spine straight. Those are really the only keys you need to practice any kind of meditation.

 

The symptoms of schizophrenia and the fruits of very deep meditation are eerily similar. Thinking you can predict the future, thinking you can read other people's thoughts, seeing things that aren't there (or at least things that most other people cannot see), communicating with other beings, etc. That can happen with any meditation of any kind. Best not to worry so much. Everything is an illusion including this reality, everything is already one / Buddha and as such you have nothing to fear at all.

 

When doing all these practices he also incorporates acupressure and various stretching / exercises that are supposed to help balance energy as well, that you do right after the meditations. So I feel it is completely safe and effective, if you actually do what is instructed, and he also teaches that it is completely safe. Only good better and best.

 

You have to be careful what you tell people in regards to their spiritual practices. It's always a sensitive matter and you could be doing damage or setting people back without realizing it. Lucky me I don't really trust anyone, and can reject information pretty easily.

 

Best to learn more from him if interested and not me, I'm not a certified instructor...and I'm not sure how much I should be talking openly about his ideas / techniques and mixing them with my own ideas.

 

He says go spread the techniques and healing for your friends and family but...this is a public forum. Despite the fact that I like to think of everyone as family...even if I forget that sometimes.

Edited August 20, 2013 by DeadDragon

[joeblast]

I never really dug on the MCO until I made many connections and discovered the 3 dantiens method applied to the water wheel. The center is developed first, I spent years there. No leading. Any flow that manifests emerges of its own accord. Done it with bagua circle walking and it was stupendous. Its so strong and has enough inertia that I could not imagine doing it often or every day.

 

One does not need to spin a prayer wheel as if they are trying to paddle away from the top of a waterfall

 

Unskillful practice is just that.

Edited August 20, 2013 by joeblast

[Starjumper]

Really good answers. I want to say here that I am aware that doing the MCO has healing potential if done a certain way. I'm really not an expert on the sitting MCO because I've only done it a little bit. I was just sharing things I've seen in a couple of people and heard from my master.

 

I did do the sitting MCO once after gaining a lot of ability, and while it was very pleasant, I felt weaker for a few days after. Also, there is no doubt that the wrong person doing the sitting MCO the wrong way can be hurt quite a lot.

 

I think the main thing my teacher had against the MCO is because it will interfere with the path of the 'Jedi', which was our path.

 

I'll get into that more.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Starjumper

[joeblast]

Tsotgf cleary, p65
You suppose that attainment is possible in quietude but lost in activity; you do not realize that the reason for loss through activity is because nothing is attained through stillness.

[chi 2012]

I've posted a few times about how I have healed myself many times of heart and stomach blockages with Chunyi Lin's small universe(MCO). There was a post once on the Learning Strategies forum about how somebody healed themselves from paralysis by doing the SFQ MCO. Chunyi Lin says in his book that if you have time to do only one exercise - do the Small Universe because it clears all the major energy channels in the body.

 

There might be some dangerous MCO's out there but the SFQ MCO is an exception. Chunyi Lin can actually see energy - so I doubt that he would be making these recommendations if there was a chance that people can hurt themselves from his MCO.

 

Also I don't think it's a good sign when a Qigong master says that he won't heal somebody that has damaged himself from the MCO. The universe heals and forgives us no matter what we do. So why would a Qigong teacher deny somebody a healing just because they don't approve of what they did? Most of the Qigong healers that are commonly mentioned on this forum like Chunyi Lin, Clyman, Lomax, etc. will try and heal anyone - doesn't matter what kind of "sin" they committed.

Edited August 21, 2013 by chi 2012

[thelerner]

Lin Aiwei is a very down to earth and experienced teacher. He has many good audio at Time Monk Radio. Here is one on the MCO - http://timemonkradio.com/threads/expedient-means.269/page-3 (in case it moves, its # EMS 2065). Seems like an intelligent balanced perspective to me.

[Green Tiger]

I think the main thing my teacher had against the MCO is because it will interfere with the path of the 'Jedi', which was our path.

 

So your practice is more about killing goats with mind bullets?

[hydrogen]

Messages are powerful things. It has been scientifically proven that a plant with the word "Love" taped to its container will grow much healthier and fuller as opposed to a plant with the word "Hate" taped to it...which will not be too healthy at all. Given the exact same growing conditions.

 

Interesting experiment. Do you have a link to this? Thanks.

 

I just wonder if the word "love" and "hate" are visible to oboservers in the experiment. Did they do a bouble blind experiment, i.e. the word "love" and "hate" are unknown to the guy who conduct the experiment?

 

I don't believe that plants know the meaning of the words. I think the observers around the plant read the word, and project the resonate energy to the plants, such effect the grows of the plants.

 

We're the "co-creator" of the world, it makes sense that our emotion effect our environment.

 

Back to top:

 

The inner smile is the fundation.

 

The genuine belly laugh is more effective than MCO in most cases.

Edited August 21, 2013 by hydrogen

[Starjumper]

So your practice is more about killing goats with mind bullets?

 

Well some of my kung fu brothers can do that, but no. I suppose it applies more to martial artists in a couple of ways at least.

 

One is that when you want to project chi during a punch, for example, you want it to happen naturally, with the movement, instantly, and not having to send it with your mind, which would be way to slow. It also allows projection of softer chi, for healing, simply by using the correct hand positions and movement and not having to think about it nor direct it with the mind.

 

The mind is used for sensing, not directing. Same as: 'those who listen learn more than those who talk' and this is important for cultivation.

 

The second thing is that when someone confines most of their energy into the MCO, like my teacher warned, it is not available for projecting with much force because it will be staying in the one wide channel the person has created. Therefore the MCO is counterproductive for developing strong chi power in my opinion.

 

In my system of Taoist wizardry we are absolutely not allowed to direct enegy in the body due to some arbitrry stupid idea or whatever, due to something someone told you. The energy is always to move where it naturaly wants to go, which includes influences of posture and movement.

 

Many years ago, since I had so much energy at the top of my head, I decided to experiment and tried sending energy both ways, both outwards/upwards, and inwards/downwards. Doing this I discovered that the energy is usually going outwards. (Taosit wizards usually radiate healing energy 24/7)

 

When I told my teacher about my little experiment and discovery he said "NO", in other words he didn't want me screwing with all the fine work he had been doing over the years and there is no directing of energy allowed for cultivation, and if I kept doing it he may have kicked me out.

 

Now it's time to make a distinction. focusing on a place in your body and having the energy go where your attention goes was one of the thousands of techniques we practiced, and we were to focus on a different spot each second. Like click, click, click, a new spot each time. That is allowed. It is the direction of flow that was not allowed.

 

This directing of flow (many do it with breathing) is using the mind to direct energy, which is forcing it and is a hard style. Those who said it was easy and unforced were, I think, simply saying that they had already worn the groove in their rock, which would therefore make it easy and seem unforced, but if it is directing flow with the mind that is the definition of 'forcing' in my book.

 

The MCO I learned about was from Chia, I don't know about Lins methods, nor will I practice them.

 

I ONLY do the MCO with movement, and there seem to be hundreds of them that accomplish this task.

 

there's much more ... later.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Starjumper

[doc benway]

Dogmatic views on spiritual practices are rarely accurate or helpful, be they Christian, Buddhist, Daoist, or other...

Consequently, I'd like to offer an opposing position.

 

There are many effective ways to cultivate, many ways to meditate, many ways to heal, fight, and grow.

I disagree with much of what Starjumper has posted in this thread. His methods and school clearly have their bias and perspective. Out of respect, I will assume that it is a traditional, credible, and effective approach. That does not mean that it is the only approach or that alternative approaches are incorrect or less effective.

 

The microcosmic orbit has very successful and safe applications in a variety of Daoist schools.

In my system it is both a foundation practice and an advanced practice.

 

The major problem, as I see it, is that the majority of Daoist methods require supervision by an experienced guide and such teachers are few and far between. The MCO has been popularized in the West in a number of books and videos but I've never seen a published resource that is anything like what my teacher taught me regarding this practice. Furthermore, the published resources do not provide feedback, guidance, correction, and so forth. This is a very subtle practice that requires accuracy more than anything else, and that is tough to achieve without personal instruction.

 

Practices, such as the MCO, are generally only harmful or ineffective when misused without the benefit of skillful guidance.

 

I mean no disrespect and have no interest in debating the point, just wanted to offer an alternative perspective.

 

Peace.

[Starjumper]

Well said, it makes sense.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Starjumper

[teknix]

OK, there are a lot of aspects to this practice, and what it does, but more importatnly, what it doesn't do, and it is NOT safe. Safety is important in energy cultivation.

 

1. When you direct energy in your body for a practice then that is considered to be a hard style because you are forcing it. Forcing it, particularly by a beginner, can cause problems, and hard styles, forcing things, go contrary to the Way. It also tends to make people die young. As it sez in the TTC, those who do the hard styles do not last long (in general), so all that directing of energy and stress and tension exercises made popular by someone who shall remain namele$$, is not so good for longevity.

 

For achieving health and longevity a practice must be as soft and relaxed as possible.

 

2. The MCO is included in most types of chi kung as a moving exercise, where you focus on the movement and the movement automatically moves the energy in the proper way without your ever having to think about it, and it does it much better than the mind can. Doing the MCO with body movement is NOT fundamentalist, particularly if it is part of a whole system of movements and isn't just a stand alone exercise. So sitting around with your finger in your nose, doin or pretending to do the MCO is, inneficient, or doesn't work, or causes damage, and is kind of a waste of time compared to doing a more wholistic practice, because when you do it with movement it also helps with other things.

 

3. There are many many energy flows in the body, and to focus mainly on one of them is neglecting the rest of the body. Maybe your body needs more energy work somewhere else. If you do chi kung soft style, no directing energy, then the energy will automatically go where it is needed most for healing. Sending it instead into the MCO is slowing down progress if not causing irreversible damage.

 

The way my teacher, who was one of th emost powerful chi kung masters in the world, put it: "If you do the MCO it is like training a dog to stay, so when you need the dog for help it will not come." In other words the MCO does absolutely nothing for cultivating the kind of chi power that would be used for Jedi type stuff, for example. Nor does it free up more energy to go where it may be needed for self healing. It's like water wearing a groove in a rock, once the groove is there the water will not leave.

 

Not only is the MCO not that important (the central channel is more important) but according to common knowledge there are many energy meridians in the body that should all be worked equally with energy, and this is what a powerful system will do. According to uncommon knowledge, there are no energy meridians in the body, energy flows through every fiber of your body.

 

4. I've seen a couple of people who developed some serious health problems fas a result of doing the MCO, and when I asked my teacher about healing them he said he would never heal a person who had hurt themselves by doing chi kung incorrectly.

 

Yolo, go hard or go home!

 

 

If you are standing on top of a bridge that you want to bungee jump off and you keep thinking about all the negative possibilities you will be standing there for a very long time and in fear. The only way to succeed in your mission of jumping of the bridge is to stop thinking about it and do it.

 

Much like MCO, it doesn't require thought, just a change in focus of awareness away from the eyes. Don't look, don't think, just do. Unlike in Bungee jumping, in MCO if problems arise you can deal with them as they manifest.

 

If your mission isn't to bungee jump off the bridge then get out of the way! (And what are you doing on the bridge in the first place?)

 

P.S. This is just the perspective of one radical sorcerer.

Edited August 22, 2013 by teknix

[DeadDragon]

Interesting experiment. Do you have a link to this? Thanks.

 

I just wonder if the word "love" and "hate" are visible to oboservers in the experiment. Did they do a bouble blind experiment, i.e. the word "love" and "hate" are unknown to the guy who conduct the experiment?

 

I don't believe that plants know the meaning of the words. I think the observers around the plant read the word, and project the resonate energy to the plants, such effect the grows of the plants.

 

We're the "co-creator" of the world, it makes sense that our emotion effect our environment.

 

Back to top:

 

The inner smile is the fundation.

 

The genuine belly laugh is more effective than MCO in most cases.

 

The source is the movie "What the bleep do we know?". I haven't seen the movie in awhile, but I don't think they specify if it was double blind. Perhaps you can go learn more about it if you want.

 

From what I've learned, all words and objects already have an energetic signature, either naturally occurring or which has been developed through our individual or collective consciousness over time. Keeping a book like the Tao Te Ching or I Ching near you when you meditate is a good thing to do, because it has a very wise / high / enlightened energetic signature to it, or something like that. So I've been told.

 

You can do an experiment yourself. Place a piece of paper with the word love written on it on your friend's shoulder. Have them hold their arm out parallel to the ground. Put pressure on their arm, trying to force it down while they try and hold it in place. Next try with the word anger written on a piece of paper. Do the same thing, and watch as their arm crumbles with less pressure from you. Do not show your friends the words until after the experiment is concluded. Maybe you can have another friend put the pressure down, so that way it is double blind.

 

Studying Feng Shui might help you learn more, I don't know I'm no expert.

Edited August 26, 2013 by DeadDragon