The MCO is Taoist fundamentalism

[Celestial]

I think the main thing my teacher had against the MCO is because it will interfere with the path of the 'Jedi', which was our path.

 

[Jetsun]

Yeah the Small Universe by Chunyi Lin is great, I could see how you could have problems with the microcosmic orbit if you are trying to do too much with it without the proper guidance. With the Spring Forest version you do it to a recording which harmonises your breathing, sounds, pace of practice and gives you access to the masters energy to help you, I have not heard of it causing anyone problems if done in this way.

 

https://soundcloud.com/rolf-h-corneliussen/01-sitting-meditation-small

 

I think without the recording I would probably do it at the same pace and breathing as my regular work rhythm which may just agitate whatever stress or whatever was going on inside of me rather than calm it down. Also I have learned through other practices that doing less is more effective than more, so you just lightly casually move your awareness around the orbit without concern rather than try to forcefully move the energy. I have read about people trying to add all sorts of thing like inner smile and trying too hard to feel or move energy, so their ego or minds try too own or add to the practice, but that wont help.

[xenolith]

Ah, the teacher complex, no...your body and your mind are your teachers; for the diligent student, lessons are clear. Facility with your MCO will ultimately introduce you to Indra's Web...you'll cry out of stunned amazement at the beauty of it...blazingly awakened will you be, while bodhicitta blossoms. A bodhisattva birth!

 

xeno

[Starjumper]

What? how? I've heard of MCO during tai chi or bagua. Is this what you're referring to?

 

I know the Yang and Chen styles of tai chi and a little bit of Pa Kua. I have seen nothing in the tai chi forms that I would call 'doing' the MCO, maybe some do it as part of a wartm up chi kung before practicing the form. All the ways of doing it with movement are in some tuypes of chi kung, and in them you would be in some positions which would get you killed if used in self defense. As far as Pa Kua is concerned, I know that some are chi kung and some are self defense forms, but from what I've seen and practiced of those I don't see any MCO being done like they are when done purposefully with chi kung movements..

 

You said about the punch, isn't there still an intent happening? You said the mind doesn't do much but have you really investigated the mind? Perhaps you're talking about the conscious mind that is full of false thinking. But I think people distinguish the mind as a thing sometimes.

 

You'll have to remend me what I said about the punch, I can't recal mentioning one in this thread.

[joeblast]

I do more laogung/yongquan breathing than MCO

[idquest]

I know the Yang and Chen styles of tai chi and a little bit of Pa Kua. I have seen nothing in the tai chi forms that I would call 'doing' the MCO, maybe some do it as part of a wartm up chi kung before practicing the form. All the ways of doing it with movement are in some tuypes of chi kung, and in them you would be in some positions which would get you killed if used in self defense. As far as Pa Kua is concerned, I know that some are chi kung and some are self defense forms, but from what I've seen and practiced of those I don't see any MCO being done like they are when done purposefully with chi kung movements..

 

 

You'll have to remend me what I said about the punch, I can't recal mentioning one in this thread.

 

Well these your words just prove you don't know taiji and bagua well enough to judge them wrt MCO.

[Green Tiger]

Well these your words just prove you don't know taiji and bagua well enough to judge them wrt MCO.

 

Hodor?

 

I think I know what he's talking about. Starjumper, is the MCO movement kind of like a wave up the body? I've practiced a Chi Kung where you slowly kind of create a wave in your body that starts in the feet and moves up to the head and then travels back down to the feet. There were hand/arm movements that correspond. I think in Jerry Alan Johnson's Chi Kung Healing DVD he calls it the golden bell or the golden ball or something like that.

[Green Tiger]

Yolo, go hard or go home!

 

 

If you are standing on top of a bridge that you want to bungee jump off and you keep thinking about all the negative possibilities you will be standing there for a very long time and in fear. The only way to succeed in your mission of jumping of the bridge is to stop thinking about it and do it.

 

Much like MCO, it doesn't require thought, just a change in focus of awareness away from the eyes. Don't look, don't think, just do. Unlike in Bungee jumping, in MCO if problems arise you can deal with them as they manifest.

 

If your mission isn't to bungee jump off the bridge then get out of the way! (And what are you doing on the bridge in the first place?)

 

P.S. This is just the perspective of one radical sorcerer.

 

Yeah, but I prefer to only bungie jump after a professional jumper dude has securely rigged my ass up and explained to me the finer points of jumping. Amateur bungie jumpers tend to have short life spans.

 

When I told my teacher about my little experiment and discovery he said "NO", in other words he didn't want me screwing with all the fine work he had been doing over the years and there is no directing of energy allowed for cultivation, and if I kept doing it he may have kicked me out.

 

Now it's time to make a distinction. focusing on a place in your body and having the energy go where your attention goes was one of the thousands of techniques we practiced, and we were to focus on a different spot each second. Like click, click, click, a new spot each time. That is allowed. It is the direction of flow that was not allowed.

 

This directing of flow (many do it with breathing) is using the mind to direct energy, which is forcing it and is a hard style. Those who said it was easy and unforced were, I think, simply saying that they had already worn the groove in their rock, which would therefore make it easy and seem unforced, but if it is directing flow with the mind that is the definition of 'forcing' in my book.

 

Yeah, that makes sense. There is a big difference between focusing your intent on a specific point and visualizing energy movement. The Stillness-Movement system also avoids visualization, for the most part and Bruce Frantzis advocates actually feeling energy movement rather than visualizing it. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that visualizing energy movement can be harmful but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out that it can be.

[balance.]

Max advocates use of an MCO variation (red dragon circulation) to be done during a specific pakua practice to empower that work. IME, this pakua variation becomes much more powerful when that circulation can be rallied effortlessly.

 

 

Different strokes for different folks. A lot of interesting things coming out of different approaches and different schools.

 

 

best.

 

 

balance.

[ChiDragon]

Well these your words just prove you don't know taiji and bagua well enough to judge them wrt MCO.

 

He knows; he knows.......

[xenolith]

Max advocates...

 

You don't need Max balance; in fact, you need to not need Max...or anyone...other than you.

 

Peace,

 

xeno

[voidisyinyang]

Chunyi Lin says the MCO is the foundation of the training and that you don't need his higher level classes if you just take the small universe/MCO to the highest levels.

 

When I brought the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" to class Chunyi Lin quoted from the book - even though I kept the book in my unopened backpack. Chunyi Lin said he had just taken his small universe practice to a very high level - and the quote from the book was about seeing snow fall in the sky and like flowers in the winter - it means right before the yang spirit is created.

 

So that was around 2001 but Chunyi Lin achieved that in Minnesota - he had later said he had taken small universe/MCO to deeper levels --

 

The point is - if you read Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality it's all based on the small universe/MCO practice - it's a very practical concise training manual - it's not based on rhetoric, etc. but on precise psychophysiological and spiritual transformations.

 

The "moving of yin and yang" active exercise is the standing version of the small universe practice.

 

To summarize - the right hand and upper body are yang and the left hand and lower body are yin.

 

This information is even found in a hadith on the Koran - Mohammed trained based on this information!

 

So - this is the focus of chapter six of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - the tiger and dragon channels.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_1sPDntOTs

 

So also when you do healing using hands with Spring Forest Qigong then you open the small universe channels of the person being healed - using your hands along their body with no touching....

[Starjumper]

Hodor?

 

I think I know what he's talking about. Starjumper, is the MCO movement kind of like a wave up the body? I've practiced a Chi Kung where you slowly kind of create a wave in your body that starts in the feet and moves up to the head and then travels back down to the feet. There were hand/arm movements that correspond. I think in Jerry Alan Johnson's Chi Kung Healing DVD he calls it the golden bell or the golden ball or something like that.

 

There is a type of minor mco that can be done with body movement and yet without the hands, and it's part of making shoulder rolls but putting your whole body into it, not including the legs, just the torso.

 

But my path of the wizard requires achieving the most powerful chi/energy/force in your hands possible, so we focus on the hands. Have you heard of wizards with wimpy hands? Even Disney knows how to portray a sorcerer's hand motions, it's common knowledge. SO, if we do some practice without using our hands as the focal point then we're wasting our damn time, aren't we? Kind of like just playing with yerself instead of cultivating is how I see it. Sometimes I exagrate. These movements also help build muscle and flexibility.

 

Before I said I would make a video and call it 1001 ways to do the MCO.

 

Also, you can run the energy both directions in the mco, taking turns. ... who's the fundamentalist that sez the energy should only go one way in the mco, who's the fundamentalist that only runs the energy in one direction in the mco? Do you think this is wise or healthy? More fundamentalism.

 

The main difference is that doing it "with the flow" is more relaxing so it's best to finish off with it going in this direction. But why always the 'more relaxing'? hm? everyone's so nice'n relaxed they hardly get around to really examining their path =)

Edited September 2, 2013 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

what methods are you cultivating? Could you give a layout if that's permissible?

 

That's a bit of a difficult question. Partly because I'm illiterate in the jargon that is used so much in these places by the accademics, and partly because my system is so broad.

 

It is said that the most powerful Taoist systems contain ten thousand techniques, so eviden;ty mine os one of them =)

 

It includes chi kung movements which combine a rarely seen form of chi kung that is both exotically beautiful in its flowing, all energy based exercises, many of the movements you would think are spiritually symbolic but they have energy functins. We focus on cultivating a lot of power in the hands. It includes sitting and standing meditations (all of which are high energy versions,, sound and oice meditations, plus some Pa kua syle walking meditations, plus a bunch of other stuff I can't think of right now. It seems to include just about everything useful I've seen in other chi kung systems. like my teacher sez: take the best from each system and leave the rest (to the others.) It's a real live path of the Taoist sorcerer. It could be considered an exercise and spiritual cultiation system for martial artists, and martial artists seem to have a lot more common sense than the average Joe.

 

What it does NOT include is sitting around doing visualizing type meditations and wimpy chi kung, or simple calisthenics type chi kung, etc.

 

I also practice some Yang and Chen style tai chi.

 

I don't know, does that help?

 

 

Oh in Bruce Frantiz's Bagua Mastery video, he gives you the posture for the macrocosmic orbit when doing Bagua. There's stuff that you can fit in there. Certain stuff that teachers will show you maybe years long. It's a matter of doing experiments and practicing for a long time.

 

 

 

I think you could do the MCO with any posture. The point is that if it's a posture and not a movement then that means its done with the mind, not the body, end of story. I'm talking about moving, and I mean moving quite a lot.

 

 

The point is - if you read Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality it's all based on the small universe/MCO practice - it's a very practical concise training manual - it's not based on rhetoric, etc. but on precise psychophysiological and spiritual transformations.

 

 

 

I've read here that some people do well and heal themselves by doing it, yet they seem to be a small percentage.

 

Keep this in mind: There are many more people who accomplish the same things with other methods that are a hell of a lot more entertaining and also provide more benefit in other areas.

 

Then there is the thing about safety. Some people can do the sitting MCO eveidently with no harm and others have been harmed quite a lot and I've seen a couple of them. So why is that?

 

I imagine that someone who does well with the MCO probably mixes it up with quite a few other activities, and gets a good rounded complement of techniques.

 

For example, if some farmer is out working under the hot sun sweating all day, or a warrior who is out battling all day (edit: or what applies more to us: if they spend plenty of time on other practices like tai chi, standing, moving chi kung, dancing, etc) then when he goes home he can do well with sitting meditation . On the other hand I saw one of the 'victims' of the MCO.

 

It was a young lady who came from the East and asked about chi kung, said she had been doing the MCO and was having problems. I told her to come on over and I would show her some real chi kung.

 

Well, she was terribly unhealth, being extremely overweight yet with short stature, and not the firm type of overweight you would have seen at the previous turn of the century, but toxin laden flab full of inflamation.

 

She said she had a sitting job! Does anyone see the problem here yet?

 

The "moving of yin and yang" active exercise is the standing version of the small universe practice.

 

Since Lin does his MCO with hand movement then that is acceptable in my book concerning safety. What is not acceptable to me is what seems to be his extremely simplistic approach to a subject with huge potential. HOWEVER, I realize that most Westerners do not have what it takes and want something simple and easy so some masters adapt to this situation by teaching wimpy chi kung, it IS acceptable to me that they teach wimpy chi kung to the masses. It was NOT acceptable to my teacher to teach wimpy chi kung, instead he rejected almost all applicants.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Starjumper

[Ish]

Can you give us an example of what your teacher is capable of Starjumper?

[Starjumper]

Thanks for answering. Where are you learning your system from? In the states or in a place like China? Obviously in person it seems.

 

A very few of the most advanced Chinese masters in the world moved to America before it became popular in China to come here to make money by teaching. Those first teachers were much more dedicated to personal excellence than money, of course this is a generalization, some excelent Chinese teachers have come here later with the most ethical of intentions.

 

Examples of these early top level masters were Cheng Man Ching and (grandmaster) Tchoung Ta Tchen who was my 'other' Yang teacher. Another was my teacher, who has been unknown.

 

So yes I learned this in the states but there is no doubt I got a better education than if I had gone to China and found the most advanced master to learn from. He passed away last year, at the age of 98, a victim of the American populattion control/poisoning program.

 

You ever consider teaching people your type of MCO? although it's probably implied that you would make a video or a few short pages of how to do the MCO as taught by your system. That's actually what I meant by if you could give a layout like instructions. But I do understand that certain teachers are against doing that in open. But I guess times has changed as teachers are willingly teaching people methods that was held secret for thousands of years.

My 'type' of MCO is such small potatoes in my system that it is simply done as a byproduct of movements that have broader application and is absolutely ignored. The MCO is so absolutely completely unimportant that we never did it, discussed it, or anything of that nature. All my teacher said was to never do it.

 

So while I could describe or make a video it would really be of an exercise movement that is for something else and itjust happens to have a component where the MCO piggy backs along for a ride.

 

Concerning the teaching of secrets, I have been advised by a local Indian sorcerer (like Don Juan, I'm teaching him my martial art) to not do it.

 

Can you give us an example of what your teacher is capable of Starjumper?

 

Keep in mind that masters like this only show you 1% of what they can do, but anyway:

 

He could feel the inside of people's bones from across a room and know if they had good marrow or not.

 

He knew what I was thinking in class

 

He knew what I did and thought at home. He never clained to do these things, instead he proved it.

 

He could move his hand one inch, quickly, and from ten feet away the energy from it felt like getting hit by a presure wave from an explosion.

 

He communicated telepathically with me both before and after he died, which I guess means he is an immortal.

 

He taught the deadliest of Jedi methods plus the art of invisibility to the top Shaolin grandmaster in the US (also one of my teachers), another 'hidden' master.

 

Oh yes, and he was Bruce Lee's 'real' teacher.

[Isimsiz Biri]

The way my teacher, who was one of th emost powerful chi kung masters in the world, put it: "If you do the MCO it is like training a dog to stay, so when you need the dog for help it will not come." I

4. I've seen a couple of people who developed some serious health problems fas a result of doing the MCO, and when I asked my teacher about healing them he said he would never heal a person who had hurt themselves by doing chi kung incorrectly.

 

I am sorry, I am new in the forum, may I ask who is your teacher that you mentioned?

[Starjumper]

Fook Yueng is the name.

[RiverSnake]

My understanding of the word fundamentalism is that it is by nature a divisive ideology, it insists that "OUR WAY IS THE ONLY WAY"......therefore the very nature of the title of this thread is incorrect....as any Daoist would agree there are varying paths and that the MCO is not the only valid technique in the world.....but that there are many methods which are beneficial.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[Green Tiger]

Fook Yueng is the name.

 

Oh yeah, I've heard of him. I thought he was more of a wing chun guy.

[Starjumper]

Interesting, how did you hear of him? Where did you live when you heard of him? It used to be that only a few locals in the Seattle area knew about him, plus some in Hong Kong new about him.

 

I don't know if 'more' is a proper word, but yes he specialized in a secret type of wing chun that was only taught within the Chinese Opera. This art was banned by the Chinese government because it was so effective, so it went underground.

 

This type of wing chun is very soft, and while I'm no expert on wing chun I've seen people do what looks like quite a hard style of it. So =) I would say that the hard style is fundamentalist

My understanding of the word fundamentalism is that it is by nature a divisive ideology, it insists that "OUR WAY IS THE ONLY WAY"......therefore the very nature of the title of this thread is incorrect....as any Daoist would agree there are varying paths and that the MCO is not the only valid technique in the world.....but that there are many methods which are beneficial.

My 2 cents, Peace

 

I would say fundamentalists are divisive because they are immature. Fundamentalism to me is where you take some little pieces out of a wholistic system and then sell it as "This is IT".

 

Of course there are many methods which are beneficial, but the nature of yin and yang goes kind of like this: The greatest number of people will do the poorest form of exercise (or anything) and the fewest number will do the greatest form of exercise. There's an inverse proportional relationship, the better is is the fewer do it, the poorer it is the more do it. This is a generalization, of course, but it's the way the world works.

 

The most immature people are attracted to fundamentalism, the most mature are more attracted to the mystic side of spirituality.

[NotVoid]

I can tell you for certain that in at least some daoist cultivation traditions the MCO (as you refer to it) is not opened intentionally and actually opens by itself naturally as a result of meditation and other related practices. No intention is really involved to open the MCO or direct its flow. This all occurs naturally. There are various practices out there that people call 'daoist' nowadays mainly as a marketing strategy from what I can tell. It seems to me a lot of these other practices are more likely not at all related to real daoist practices, or are divergences from original daoist practices. The authentic practices are hard to come by from my experience.

[RiverSnake]

 

I would say fundamentalists are divisive because they are immature. Fundamentalism to me is where you take some little pieces out of a wholistic system and then sell it as "This is IT".

 

Of course there are many methods which are beneficial, but the nature of yin and yang goes kind of like this: The greatest number of people will do the poorest form of exercise (or anything) and the fewest number will do the greatest form of exercise. There's an inverse proportional relationship, the better is is the fewer do it, the poorer it is the more do it. This is a generalization, of course, but it's the way the world works.

 

The most immature people are attracted to fundamentalism, the most mature are more attracted to the mystic side of spirituality.

I tend to disagree with such broad sweeping generalizations.

 

My 2 cent, Peace

[mjjbecker]

I can tell you for certain that in at least some daoist cultivation traditions the MCO (as you refer to it) is not opened intentionally and actually opens by itself naturally as a result of meditation and other related practices. No intention is really involved to open the MCO or direct its flow. This all occurs naturally. There are various practices out there that people call 'daoist' nowadays mainly as a marketing strategy from what I can tell. It seems to me a lot of these other practices are more likely not at all related to real daoist practices, or are divergences from original daoist practices. The authentic practices are hard to come by from my experience.

 

This. I'll go further and say unless the dantien is filled with qi, there is little sense or purpose to attempting to start the MCO. The qi has to be there to circulate, in the same way you'll get no light out of a torch if there are no batteries or the batteries are flat.

[deci belle]

Opening the MCO is certainly beneficial and should be accomplished early on in one's task of exploration in the rudiments of taoist praxis (not that I did). Finding the refinements that enable adapting this basic subtle-body function to whatever crops up in one's daily living requirements is taking this minor technique further~ these are all valid activities within the rubric of general health, hygiene and advanced chi-concentrating disciplines.

 

I cannot imagine that the MCO exercise is even fundamentally taoist; but taoist fundamentalism? To pin down what constitutes that would be an impossibility in itself… as the sources of prehistoric shamanic endeavor are as old as the Kun Lun range. Not that emerging cultures haven't been visited at different times and places in order to re-introduce these techniques to naturally virtuous beings in the course of history.

 

It is not even necessary to have opened your MCO to enter any of the profound mysteries that fundamental taoism holds as core to its esoteric traditions, whether it be immortalism or even wizardry.

 

Anything to do with energy work is already created. This should indicate where it (MCO activity and its lore) stands in the overall hierarchy of taoist praxis.

 

 

 

 

ed note: "not that I did"

Edited September 7, 2013 by deci belle