A little on David and course costs

[vidiami]

Hi, I am vidiami - I used to post here a little when the forum was still young ...

 

I just stopped by for some reason which I can't remember - and noticed there's some talk about David Shen going on ... which made me a little interested.

 

I did a search on David Shen here on TaoBums and read some of the previous posts on him.

 

For info on course costs in Denmark, please read Sean D's post on the matter.

 

In summer 2004 I went to Denmark to take the first step of Sheng Zheng Gong, which (as far as I understand) is part of the Lei Shan Dao training. My impressions of David are that he's a brilliant teacher and that I'd really recommend studying with him. However there are some foundation you may want to cover before: Xing Shen Zhuang which can also be taken in Denmark (or Sweden and others).

 

The course I took, Sheng Zheng Gong is about opening, or rather building, the Dan Tien (among other things) and this process is said to take about two years to complete (depending on how well you practice).

 

If you're interested in practicing with David, this would be a reasonable place to start in my opinion. Why go to China or Thailand and spend all that money before you have met the guy and formed your own impression? And what would be the point of doing so without the foundation?

Edited May 10, 2007 by vidiami

[sunshine]

Some good points... but it seems to be a little different. Actually the intro-cost for one week Denmark is 1000 Euros/per week... the amount mentioned by you then seems to be applied if you repeat training next year... the amount for China, according to David, is based on the master's wishes and, as it seems, includes meeting a master and maybe even get worked on by him... and maybe a few other things...

 

[vidiami]

I've removed this text as it held inaccurate information.

 

For info on course costs in Denmark, please read Sean D's post on the matter.

Edited May 10, 2007 by vidiami

[gendao]

Like I said I took one couse with David in Denmark in 2004 (Sheng Zheng Gong level 1). That was my first and only encounter with David and it cost around 3000DKK which is about 400 euros or about $550. There were no further tuition fees!

Hello and WB!

 

Well, could you give us a brief review of what you learned (don't have to go into details) and what level you feel you are at now? Basically, how do you think the practices you were taught have actually helped you thus far?

[sunshine]

What do you mean by intro-cost? Where do you get these numbers from?

 

Easy to answer. There is a Foundation training forum brought into life by SeanD. The cost requirements are discussed there...

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[vidiami]

Well, could you give us a brief review of what you learned (don't have to go into details) and what level you feel you are at now? Basically, how do you think the practices you were taught have actually helped you thus far?

Well, I haven't been a good student, so I can't really say about rewards and such.

 

Xing Shen Zhuang is a form of ten movements all designed to manipulate the spine in various ways basically to straighten the spine. After practicing twice in a six months period you're normally ready to go on to Sheng Zheng Gong.

 

Sheng Zheng Gong builds on Xing Shen Zhuang (at least in David's system). However now there are no movements, but only sitting and doing inner work. You're basically learning how to meditate properly and to build the Dan Tien. Of course in David's view, the Dan Tien is not something you automatically just have - you need to build it, and that takes a fair amount of practice.

 

In my practice I have decided to stay with Xing Sheng Zhuang until I can sit without distracting tension, so I haven't really practiced that much Sheng Zheng Gong. I will pick it up later though.

 

It seems that many meet David (take a course etc.) and decide to drop their other practice routines. One may wonder why this often is the case? I know a few people (including myself) where this has been the case. Whatever your preconceptions of him might be, there must some reason why people tend to "abondon their old ways" and jump on the David-train. I think he really is a brilliant teacher and that he's teaching brilliant stuff (as far as I can tell). Why not go see him?

 

Easy to answer. There is a Foundation training forum brought into life by SeanD. The cost requirements are discussed there...

So where's (url) this forum discussion?

Edited May 8, 2007 by vidiami

[gendao]

Edited May 8, 2007 by vortex

[DentyDao]

Jette sent me a letter explaining the reality of the prices for Denmark:

 

Hi Sean

 

Vidiami who has put this information on www.thetaobums.com should have cleared this whit me before starting this problem.

 

There is a very clear policy about the price.

 

The price for the seminar this summer is 1000 euro a week for people who never worked whit David or me before. People from the Danish group and people who have done seminars here in Denmark with David before pay a different price.

 

We have made this policy about the price to make sure that all the new participants are really committed students. If the people that starts the practice this year comeback next year, they will of course pay the same price as everybody else.

 

Please make this clear to everybody or better ask them to contact me if they have any questions. To make sure that every body gets the same answers I will suggest that any questions that has to do with the organisation of the seminar goes trough me. This is my job and David has plenty of other things to do.

 

See you soon

 

All the best, Jette

 

David Shen and Jette's Forum for more info about pricing.

 

http://www.foundation73.proboards55.com/

Edited May 11, 2007 by seandenty

[spyrelx]

Vidiami,

 

Nice to see your writing here. I have emailed David about the price differences and will report what he says. I have been working with Jette to assist people attending from overseas and I believe the lower prices are for Jette's circle of students and friends and those they refer only. But, Again, I will ask David.

 

S

 

 

Please do. I'd be curious as to whether the prices in China are also more fluid than previously believed.

 

Thanks.

[vidiami]

I've removed this text as it helt inaccurate information.

For info on course costs in Denmark, please read Sean D's post on the matter.

Edited May 10, 2007 by vidiami

[DentyDao]

Please do. I'd be curious as to whether the prices in China are also more fluid than previously believed.

 

Thanks.

 

Definitly not... unless David says otherwise to you personally. In which case that would be between you and him.

[Spectrum]

It amazes me that there is someone making this much money from sharing the Art. 2 years "foundation" sounds about right.

 

The closed school/system shifus I have encountered in which a certain "quality" resonated all said two years to make your intent/body one. These sifu's students engaged in hours of standing and neutralizing practices for the benifit of clearing and harmonizing the meridians. 5 element arm positions were also used.

 

In the Taoist system I was introduced to the breakin period was the same 2 years. Things change after that. You just don't move the same ways again.

 

I have found shifus using the traditional 100 day standing regime for the beggining of the 2 years. You can have a lot if major postural adjustments and mind/body break through sessions in something as simple as that "method"; something that I don't think you can put a price on.

 

Reminds me of Gary Clymans 600$ pricetags a number of years ago for taichi/chigung "knowledge".

 

Real teachers know that the real coins of learning are more valuable than a pricetag on their karmic bonds. I would be extremely cautious. Perhaps requesting a weeks stay w/ associated cost before laying down the whole sum if I was remotely close to serious about recieving said training. I've witnessed to many monsters in the making to take anything on faith alone. Investigate, ask questions, seek answers, inquire.

 

Spectrum

Edited May 7, 2007 by Spectrum

[DentyDao]

Just a few corrections to avoid confusion

Read Michael Winn's letter on Sean D and David and I just want to say: who came up with the number $7500 for practicing with David? I mean, this very summer, you can go to denmark and take all in all four courses in four weeks with David.

 

The limit for beginners is the first two weeks. The higher price is for the seminar in China which is something completely different. The price is actually about $6500 USD.

 

If you're interested in practicing with David, this would be a reasonable place to start in my opinion. Why go to China or Thailand and spend all that money before you have met the guy and formed your own impression? And what would be the point of doing so without the foundation?

 

The purpose of the seminar in China is to provide students an opportunity to train with David's teachers directly and receive qi transmission to help assist progress in the training. Naturally you would have to well informed to make a commitment of this level. Most of the people going have spent considerable time researching the Foundation Forum and want the experience of meeting and training with a master.

 

Vidiami, I have already PM'd you regarding what you have written here. I certainly appreciate the fact that you had a positive experience and want to share. However, as you can see, people are already making misleading judgements and unskillful comments, convinced they have seen the truth of these matters and so on... Rest assured David has been made aware and, I can pretty much garentee he will be offended even though your intentions were good. The Taobums is a very public forum with many varied view points and attitudes regarding the way traditional Daoism is taught. Your writing has already, I'm sure, been download and will be spread throughout cyberspace as the definitive teaching of David Shen. What's more, even though your general description is too vague to practice from, dozens of young 'Taoist Masters' will be practicing this 'method' convinced that they can make a workable practice from the outline you provided. Sadly, they will just be deluding themselves and wasting their time and energy.

 

Nothing good can come from this.

[gendao]

Your writing has already, I'm sure, been download and will be spread throughout cyberspace as the definitive teaching of David Shen. What's more, even though your general description is too vague to practice from, dozens of young 'Taoist Masters' will be practicing this 'method' convinced that they can make a workable practice from the outline you provided. Sadly, they will just be deluding themselves and wasting their time and energy.

 

Nothing good can come from this.

Well, I can't say a few idiots might not do that - but I simply took vidiami's impression for what it was - his own personal impression. Nothing more, nothing less. And, certainly not a "definitive teaching of David Shen."

 

Nor do I feel like I have a "workable practice" from his brief outline.

 

And let's be honest - this site is far from mainstream and I rarely see over 5 people logged in at a time. The number of regular posters here seems to be about a dozen at most - with most in at least their 30s (and assumedly more mature, then).

[DentyDao]

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree. From what I understand, and I have discussed it many times with my teacher, David feels the same. I'm confident that you and most of the Tao Bums are mature enough not to misunderstand the situation, but this forum has a large non-member audience and over 1000 members, that's an important consideration.

 

 

 

Vadiami has already expressed his regret about writing it to me in his PM and cleary respects David's wishes on the matter, so the only request I have is for the description to be removed from all posts here; Unless David's wishes are NOT respected on this forum which would only prove my point further.

 

Please remove the description. There is a very good discussion that can happen without it. Thank you.

 

Sean

[Pietro]

 

 

The previous description has been deleted after Vidiami's request.

 

Go in peace,

Pietro

Edited May 9, 2007 by Pietro

[DentyDao]

Hi Pietro,

 

All I have to say is that I will do my best to convey your attitude to those in our community of students and friends. Since Vidiami's description is far too simplistic to be of any use and will only confuse people, the only real issue is one of respect for David who has spent a lifetime trying to honor the wishes and attitudes of his teachers.

 

When we were in Thailand, David told us some of the stories of people who, lacking any real depth of character or respect, would begin teaching the practice to their friends without permission. One Romanian guy even started teaching his buddies during a lunch break at David's seminar.

 

This is the same attitude of Michael Winn and Mantak Chia, who have no regard or respect for tradition or the teachers who give up a normal life to uphold those traditions. Fittingly they have no achievement and, lost in there own self serving game, gain nothing but bad karma. Vidiami is at least just ignorant, but people like you Pietro will be the butt of every joke to cross the lips of the immortals for the next million years. Your pathetic.

 

S

[freeform]

Pietro

 

[spyrelx]

[Smile]

Michael, you are funny.

But the cost thing of $546 for locals vs. $1,360 for Americans looks interesting.

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

Gotch ya! Oh that was rich!

 

Actually David was upset about it and did say there is a confidentiallity agreement and that he expects all his students to respect that the practice is not to be discussed openly. He would also really like you (Vidiami) to please contact him. Thank you

 

As for the price difference, he is checking with Jette. My understanding is that things have changed for new students, including Danish and other European varieties. Of course return students do get a considerable price break. In anycase, it's possible it's just a hiccup in communication with the Danish contingent, as David was totally unaware.

 

S

[Smile]

If this is a private school info, Sean O. should deal with this.

[DentyDao]

If this is a private school info, Sean O. should deal with this.

I PM'd him and asked him if he would step in earlier today. He says he remains impartial and the forum is an 'open space;' apparently he just steps in if things get really crazy. Which basically means, Gotch ya now sucker, pay back for all the adyshanti comments I guess. I can respect that, but I can't protect him from the immortal wrath... That's another joke.

 

Anyway, it's a respect issue. I think Vidiami will do the right thing.

[sunshine]

If I might chime in on the price issue, as it is discussed anyway: it is not for Americans alone... and as I already mentioned: it is an intro cost to Denmark training and if one rearrives next year to continue training then one gets the Danish discount. If nothing changes after David talks to Jette than this is as it is.

 

with smiles

 

Harry

Edited May 8, 2007 by sunshine