A little on David and course costs

[Pietro]

people like you Pietro will be the butt of every joke to cross the lips of the immortals for the next million years. Your pathetic.

 

S

Maybe.

 

I said that I did not want things to appear and disappear too quick, and I did what I did to make sure the post was still there when I was coming back. You might not realise it but most of my posts during the weekend are written at the uncertain connection of other's wifi which I steal from the campervan where I live. As I expected I was not going to connect again for some time. I will probably eventually delete it. But, you see, I did not sign any agreement. I just went with the flow, and my understanding is that the karmic retribution when you go with the flow is not that heavy. It is different to make a million dollar by playing in the stock market (going with the flow), or making the same amount of money by psychically changing the universe.

 

I have to say I find your behaviour insulting for the whole community here. You arrive and treat Vidiami, who is one of the oldest posters here, as your doormat to which you give orders. You invite people to put together money to get one in Your Great School, and then when it comes out that someone has actually being into one of your special special training, then you panick when he starts to tell around what was going on there. But when we describe what were we expecting from the person who is going there you keep your mouth quiet and avoid to tell that it will not be possible for that person to describe the practices. It is hard to describe how double faced this behaviour is.

 

But worse, it comes out that there is a difference in price. Not a small one. Nearly one order of magnitude.

 

Do you know what is a pimp Sean? It is a person who promises you something that you desire a lot and uses the promise to get all sort of advantages. Well, this is exactly how you have been acting in this community. In the HT you left because Michael, who might not understand a lot about meditation, but understands about business really a lot, saw your game. And started calling it a cult. And now your behaviour, as the vague description of this information went out is of a person who is panicking. For our own good, of course. Not because suddenly you saw the possibility to loose all that little bit of power you felt you gained on us.

 

And more, you call me and plato on PU, and you absolutely use the same tricks and movements in the community. Gaming the whole community, trying to game one of the female members: "you have a crash on me, don't deny it would make it even more obvious". What is that Swingcat speaking? I might even find the page.

 

This has nothing to do with David, nor Vidiami. David is fine. It is you who stinks. It is you who with your behaviour gave the understanding that it was ok to share the practices, because you felt that in this way you would have got a person under your wing, and into your school.

 

And if it IS such a big thing, the David can send me an sms in italian, from his email address (which I have), and ask me to take it off, and of course I will do for an old friend.

 

I wonder why Plato is still silent.

[spyrelx]

Maybe.

 

I said that I did not want things to appear and disappear too quick, and I did what I did to make sure the post was still there when I was coming back. You might not realise it but most of my posts during the weekend are written at the uncertain connection of other's wifi which I steal from the campervan where I live. As I expected I was not going to connect again for some time. I will probably eventually delete it. But, you see, I did not sign any agreement. I just went with the flow, and my understanding is that the karmic retribution when you go with the flow is not that heavy. It is different to make a million dollar by playing in the stock market (going with the flow), or making the same amount of money by psychically changing the universe.

 

I have to say I find your behaviour insulting for the whole community here. You arrive and treat Vidiami, who is one of the oldest posters here, as your doormat to which you give orders. You invite people to put together money to get one in Your Great School, and then when it comes out that someone has actually being into one of your special special training, then you panick when he starts to tell around what was going on there. But when we describe what were we expecting from the person who is going there you keep your mouth quiet and avoid to tell that it will not be possible for that person to describe the practices. It is hard to describe how double faced this behaviour is.

 

But worse, it comes out that there is a difference in price. Not a small one. Nearly one order of magnitude.

 

Do you know what is a pimp Sean? It is a person who promises you something that you desire a lot and uses the promise to get all sort of advantages. Well, this is exactly how you have been acting in this community. In the HT you left because Michael, who might not understand a lot about meditation, but understands about business really a lot, saw your game. And started calling it a cult. And now your behaviour, as the vague description of this information went out is of a person who is panicking. For our own good, of course. Not because suddenly you saw the possibility to loose all that little bit of power you felt you gained on us.

 

And more, you call me and plato on PU, and you absolutely use the same tricks and movements in the community. Gaming the whole community, trying to game one of the female members: "you have a crash on me, don't deny it would make it even more obvious". What is that Swingcat speaking? I might even find the page.

 

This has nothing to do with David, nor Vidiami. David is fine. It is you who stinks. It is you who with your behaviour gave the understanding that it was ok to share the practices, because you felt that in this way you would have got a person under your wing, and into your school.

 

And if it IS such a big thing, the David can send me an sms in italian, from his email address (which I have), and ask me to take it off, and of course I will do for an old friend.

 

I wonder why Plato is still silent.

 

 

 

I wouldn't have put it quite so nasty (I mean, it is pretty nasty Pietro), but I think Pietro raises a lot of good points.

 

I'm not expecting Sean to hear any of them, or to respond with anything but his trademark bile and smugness.

 

But I would suggest the rest of you give the above a good read.

[DentyDao]

Hi Pietro,

 

Your pathetic nonsense and warped sensabilities are of no concern to me. You're lost in a world of petty jealousy and have no real understanding of the issue. Vidiami, once he realized what he did wrote the following:

 

 

1. "I know - I'm sorry. This thread wasn't supposed to be about the practice. I tried to keep the description as general as possible, but I probably should've said even less. And it would have been better to say nothing. Anyway - I will talk no more of the practice details."

 

2. "Ok, I removed the description. And again I'm sorry."

 

3. "I will contact David.

 

I will also post an apology and I will ask webmaster to remove any referencies to the description I wrote. The reason I started this thread was because of differencies in price info and nothing else.

 

You wrote I was ignorant not realizing how offending my description would be - and obviously, in light of what passed since, you're absolutely right. When I wrote the description I really tried to be general and I thought it would be ok. But of course, I was wrong. So I'm sorry.

 

Sincerely, Vidiami"

 

CLEARLY PIETRO, YOU LACK THE SIMPLE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS VERY SIMPLE ISSUE. IT'S ABOUT RESPECT AND HONOR AND INTEGRITY; QUALITIES WHICH YOU CLEARLY LACK.

 

Vidiami on the other hand is just a nice guy who made an understandable mistake. And since he has no hang-ups or insecurity to defend, he did right thing and didn't hesitate in his actions.

 

This is the way of our tradition. The masters have always asked that the practices and descriptions of the practice be kept private. It's not something we expect others to understand, but it is our way and we hope that people respect our way.

 

Comments and concerns like the ones you and Spyrelx made have no meaning, relavence or weight. I'm sorry, that the truth of the matter.

 

Sincerely, S

 

 

 

 

Pietro, rest assured, I have been in contact with David throughout this affair and your action will be shared with him. He made it very clear that Vidiami's actions are totally inappropriate. In fact his words were, "Tell the guy to Shut UP!" I can assure you that you are NOT David's friend in this matter and that I am acting in the best interest of my teacher. Now please get a life.

[freeform]

I see what Pietro means about pimping - it's really quite accurate (not necissarily 'wrong')

 

There is this constant promise of these amazing practices - that with dedication are the only way to achieve profound 'superpowers' and spiritual ascension.

 

All this pimped-out hype points to the fact that you'll need to pay a substantial price to even get a glimpse of what the training involves.

 

I'll be honest - what Vidiami wrote has made David's system much more appealing - seriously! I'm not going to try to replicate the training, that would be ridiculous, and I'm not going to go spreading the information to others.

 

I'm trying to say that no harm was done, and if anything, the training seems a bit more 'real' now...

 

the issue of respect is whole other topic - to say that we have to supplicate to the chinese way of secrecy holds no more weight than saying that we have to follow the western way of sharing information - which tradition is more 'right'? In this case it's probably more polite to follow the chinese way, since the information originated there, but again - no harm was done from my p.o.v.

[sunshine]

the issue of respect is whole other topic - to say that we have to supplicate to the chinese way of secrecy holds no more weight than saying that we have to follow the western way of sharing information - which tradition is more 'right'?

 

I won't argue about whether what "was done" was wrong or right... but the above statement is an interesting one: maybe one should just stay in line with the tradition one was taught in? that way one does not have to compare the two and try to find and answer to wrong and right...

 

 

Harry

[DentyDao]

the issue of respect is whole other topic - to say that we have to supplicate to the chinese way of secrecy holds no more weight than saying that we have to follow the western way of sharing information - which tradition is more 'right'?

 

It's perfectly good point, but this is exactly the attitude that creates further seperation between the two parties. Trust me, I would be writing a book about the practice and teaching it for free if there were no restrictions, but David's teachers have their reasons to do what they do and I respect that tradition while I'm a part of it.

 

The big reason is to protect the integrety of the lineage and keep ineffective practice from being spread or half truths and misconceptions from being created. This is what happens with big schools. The techniques methods and teaching get watered down and become a useless shadow by comparrison. It's important to respect this traditional way, even if we don't always like it. This is a rule in many successful groups and school; Kriya Yoga comes to mind, etc...

 

It's also about the bond of trust that is created between master and student, which in many ways is deeper than marriage. David is the 19th generation lineage holder of the Dragon Gate that is lead by Wang Liping. It's not for him to question the guidelines of his teachers. When he himself achieves and becomes the leader of his lineage, it will be up to him to call the shots, but until that time, the tradition will remain traditional in that regard.

[sean]

SeanD, you have to see some irony here in insisting on respect for your lineage. Since you've come to this forum you've systematically insulted almost ever active member, made insulting generalizations about the community as a whole, made sweeping character assassinations of multiple teachers that members here are students of, and in this very thread suggest that Pietro is cursed with millions of years of disrespect from immortal masters of your lineage. LOL! You got some balls dude, I will give you that. And seriously, what kind of lineage of enlightened masters gets upset and hangs on to a post on a message board for millions of years?

 

The whole idea of Tao Bums is that we are regular modern people not swept up in uncritical Asian fetishism. David is selling a course for close to 10 grand. Normal people in THIS CENTURY are going to discuss it and take it apart and analyze it and review it. Get over it. I don't give a shit what people in China or India or anywhere two hundred years ago or today think of the Euro-American emphasis on free, open and skeptical exchange of information. This the basis of science which is how we clawed our way out of the brutality of the dark ages when occult wackos like us had all the political power. Peer review, people!

 

Respectfully,

Sean

[thaddeus]

SeanD, you have to see some irony here in insisting on respect for your lineage. Since you've come to this forum you've systematically insulted almost ever active member, made insulting generalizations about the community as a whole, made sweeping character assassinations of multiple teachers that members here are students of, and in this very thread suggest that Pietro is cursed with millions of years of disrespect from immortal masters of your lineage. LOL! You got some balls dude, I will give you that. And seriously, what kind of lineage of enlightened masters gets upset and hangs on to a post on a message board for millions of years?

 

The whole idea of Tao Bums is that we are regular modern people not swept up in uncritical Asian fetishism. David is selling a course for close to 10 grand. Normal people in THIS CENTURY are going to discuss it and take it apart and analyze it and review it. Get over it. I don't give a shit what people in China or India or anywhere two hundred years ago or today think of the Euro-American emphasis on free, open and skeptical exchange of information. This the basis of science which is how we clawed our way out of the brutality of the dark ages when occult wackos like us had all the political power. Peer review, people!

 

Respectfully,

Sean

I'm adding my best wolf howl to this one!

[sunshine]

guys, girls, guys...

 

all these threads and talks from the point of view of an "outsider" make one thing clear in a most fascinating way:

 

that each of us tends to be able only to look so far as his own neurology is set up to allow.

 

Many statements made, but answers tend to stick only to one or two completely ignoring the other, which in itself can not be understood without all else... arguments often seem to be given from not an emphatic position (being able to take the viewpoint of the other) but from a narrow-(not to say narrow-minded) point of view...

 

further: discussions of that kind make clear why the world is so fu...ed up. Basic level of understanding can not be achieved with a neurological structure that is tight in those narrow ways and not fluid enough to evolve...

 

luckily battles of that kind tend to allow each of ours neural connectivities to grow and change, even if it takes a long long time...

 

Edited May 8, 2007 by sunshine

[freeform]

It's perfectly good point, but this is exactly the attitude that creates further seperation between the two parties. Trust me, I would be writing a book about the practice and teaching it for free if there were no restrictions, but David's teachers have their reasons to do what they do and I respect that tradition while I'm a part of it.

 

I appreciate your respectful reply and completely understand what you mean. thanks. It would be great if more of your posts were as respectful.

[DentyDao]

SeanO,

 

LOL. Anyway, I'm glad for the people who felt there was something positive in my contribution here. I recieve many many emails of positive support every month from people expressing their thanks for my 'work' here in light of all the idiotic remarks and attitudes which I feel are the minority here. You have to understand that I'm just sharing from a personal perspective as 'just another member.'

 

And the Foundation forum now has over three hundred members who seem to share my enthisiam for David's teaching and the perspective it represents. We all seem to get along fine, and certainly there are different views and guidelines as well. As you know I don't mince words with the members here; part of the problem is that many of your members were rude and made silly stupid, disrespectful comments from the beginning. Some equally if not more rude than mine. My response is who gives a shit as well, so on that we agree.

 

I prefer to focus on the positive that comes out of these exchanges. In any case, David will be contacting Pietro or relaying a message through me shortly to request that he remove the description. As you know from Vidiami's PM to you, this is his wish as well. Problem solved.

 

Cheers, Sean

Edited May 8, 2007 by seandenty

[freeform]

A secret tends to draw people in - it creates a percieved value, whereas information freely available seems to hold no value, because it's accessible to everyone.

 

That's why there are closed-door systems and sometimes exorbitant fees for spiritual teachings - it creates a perception of value...

 

This has two effects - a person who parts with that much money will have to take it more seriously - and it creates a double bind - in that if you pay for the training you're implicitly agreeing that the training is at least as valuable as what you paid - this is a trick used by marketers to ease 'buyer's remorse' - most people would rather fool themselves that something holds more value than it really does than to admit they were stupid enough to fall for such a trick. I bet you if you put a seminar together and charged $10,000 for it and then repeated the same seminar and made it $10 you would find glowing reviews and life-changing experiences from the first one and moderate reviews and results from the second one. (in fact this has been shown to be the case, but I cant remember the details and couldn't provide references)

 

I'm sure there are other, very valid reasons to keep something secret, but I'm pointing out what happens psychologically in such cases - only because I've studied this a little. The valid reasons are gonna be based arround the fact that some students wont take it seriously, will sell the info as their own, might hurt themselves misusing it etc.

 

There is another way ofcourse - which is to make all information freely available, in which case there is no need to 'protect the pot of gold' and the actual value would be in the contact with a master/practitioner and the relationship which is formed - I would be happy to pay for that - information by itself holds no actual value for me... I think this is the only way it's likely to be sustainable in the future, especially since we're fully engulfed by the Information Age - again when there is limitless amount of information, human relationships hold far more value...

 

anyway - ramble over

[DentyDao]

The whole idea of Tao Bums is that we are regular modern people not swept up in uncritical Asian fetishism. David is selling a course for close to 10 grand. Normal people in THIS CENTURY are going to discuss it and take it apart and analyze it and review it. Get over it.

 

One more note: not if David and his teachers have anything to say about it. He intentially structures his seminar, as do many Daoist masters, so that the first course is the basic, general stuff. Critical teaching is left out and reserved for close students. This is probably not going to change anytime in the next millenium. Anyone who has notions of taking David's course and 'reporting back' to the Taobums or in any public way would not be welcome back and, the only reason I have been so open is because I have express permission from David to do so.

 

If this turns people off or makes them less interested, good. That is what it's intended to do. You and others have made it clear that you don't agree with this way of doing business, but it's not about business. You are out of your depth and have not even the faintest clue what the tradition that I speak of is about. So why bother attacking it and trying to undermine it when you can never succeed in doing that and don't understand it in the first place.

 

Some of David's students who share similar views have gone to rediculas lengths to get to David's teachers. Contacting them privately and offering huge sums of money. Everyone wants a piece of immoratality. What they fail to understand is that the masters know, just by looking, what's in your heart. It's really not about power games, it's just that there is a gate between the throngs of ignorant seekers and the Heavens. If you want to come in, you have to forget your stupid western ideas about personal freedom and self serving illusions of altruistic grandure; you have to surrender to a greater authority, something most westerners have a great fear of doing and most would never think of it; especially Americans.

 

This is the traditional path to Sainthood in the Daoist canon; it's why we use the term Master. Master here means the same thing as Guru; one who dispells the darkness. Everything that you do you do for the master. I know it's sounds so foreign to American ears, but we forget, with all the health craze around Yoga, what the term really means. YOGA; it means to Yoke to, or to bind yourself to the master. In this process, the student has to be willing of course and he must surrender his identity; the mind must become one with the master.

 

This is why real power and achievement will always be beyond the reach of the ego. It's why so many fail to achieve, they fear the surrender. It's to much for the mind to take or they think they will become a slave or be tricked. It is why the Dao is like a razors edge.

 

When your Guru one day reveals for you the face of God, you will understand that it's not about being a slave. You will thank your Guru for cutting out the sickness that is your ego, like a good doctor, the Master has to have your total trust and surrender to cut you open and remove the cancer of the limited self cherishing of our pride that say we need to be in control.

 

It's a lot swallow, I understand and I do have compassion. It's a process that takes time to see clearly.

 

Let the shit storm rain down!!!!

[Pietro]

CLEARLY PIETRO, YOU LACK THE SIMPLE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS VERY SIMPLE ISSUE. IT'S ABOUT RESPECT AND HONOR AND INTEGRITY; QUALITIES WHICH YOU CLEARLY LACK.

 

I never claimed to have them. The good thing about not having them is that I don't get so pissed off when people piss on my tradition, which in this forum happens almost daily.

 

Pietro, rest assured, I have been in contact with David throughout this affair and your action will be shared with him.

 

You speak as if David was my father.

Send him my greeting. I have no desire to harm him, so if this is harming him in any way he should contact me directly and I will immediately delete my copy of that infamous post from the public square.

 

I can assure you that you are NOT David's friend in this matter and that I am acting in the best interest of my teacher.

 

Friendship is given, not asked.

 

Now please get a life.

 

I'm ok, thanks. My taoist master, lineage holder, believes in opening up the tradition, following the examples of western universities with science. Because, he said, the old way made the art become weaker and weaker at each generation.

 

But honestly are you sure you want to be in that school Sean? I mean, it can't be such a good school if it never taught you the magic word.

 

 

part of the problem is that many of your members were rude and made silly stupid, disrespectful comments from the beginning. Some equally if not more rude than mine. My response is who gives a shit as well, so on that we agree.

 

Oh boy, oh boy!

 

David will be contacting Pietro or relaying a message through me shortly to request that he remove the description. As you know from Vidiami's PM to you, this is his wish as well. Problem solved.

 

Thanks, I had enough of messages relayed through you. I'll be very happy to hear him. Look what one has to do to get back in touch with a friend, LOL.

 

when occult wackos like us had all the political power

 

LOL!

 

when there is limitless amount of information, human relationships hold far more value...

 

Wow, freeform.

[DentyDao]

Pietro,

 

It's clear I have struck deep nerve with you. I can only suggest you take a good look at what your doing and the motives for your actions. David made his wishes on the matter of the post in question extremely clear.

 

I personally could really care less what you say or think.

[thaddeus]

Pietro,

 

It's clear I have struck deep nerve with you. I can only suggest you take a good look at what your doing and the motives for your actions. David made his wishes on the matter of the post in question extremely clear.

 

I personally could really care less what you say or think.

This is getting weird.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[freeform]

This is getting weird.

 

- it's getting weird?

[freeform]

Totally arrogant and ignorant statement. You should try politics dude.

 

I dont think it's arrogant - when I go to a Chinese household I take my shoes off - when I invite Chinese people to my house I dont expect them to take their shoes off...

 

The cultural differences are chances to learn to relate like humans rather than like Chinese and Westerners.

 

At our office we had a Chinese company as clients - I met with them regularly, we got the brief and started working on the project - we were working on it for over months, meeting weekly to discuss the progress - every time they left with a big smile, seeming really happy with the work...

 

but I started noticing that the project was dragging on, and every month they slightly undermined what we were doing and gave subtle hints that they wanted changes, so we did the changes, and still the project wouldn't come to an end - so I finally broke and asked them frankly: "You dont like the idea at all do you?" They all went red, put on their big smiles and admited they didn't like the project from the outset So they spent a lot of money, time and effort (and so did we!) on something they were too embaressed to say they didn't want...

 

So I started training myself to callibrate the 'chinese smile' as we called it in our office - I could tell just about 99% of the time whether the smile/facial expression was genuine or not - this scared them ofcourse - because I was always up-front and told them as soon as I saw some of their internal disapproval... As a result they started opening up a little bit, coz they knew they cant hide behind their smiles - and I think we finally started enjoying each others company - barriers broke down and we were humans again...

[Lozen]

I can't figure out which part of which post is the part that we're not supposed to know!

[Uncle Fester]

..

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Pietro]

I can't figure out which part of which post is the part that we're not supposed to know!

 

LOL! it was the second post from vidiami, which I quoted in full in the first entry on this thread I did.

Go and read it, but quick because as soon as David contacts me directly I'll have to take it off, as I have promised so.

[Cameron]

I can't figure out which part of which post is the part that we're not supposed to know!

 

 

Your better off that way, believe me.

[Pietro]

Well that is not the best analogy. It may work when you are participating in something cross-cultural like business. When you are trying to understand something that is deeply, deeply rooted in secrecy and in the fabric of a culture, it is up to you to adapt yourself so that you can understand everything in context.

If you don't give a shit about how the people you want information from view your approach, then you are being arrogant and disrespectful. It is the same sort of arrogant ignorance displayed by people who publish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

 

But that kind of respect is ok when you are inside their school. In the same way in which if you go to a western University, even if you are from the east you treat each other openly and unassumingly. How then eastern science students treat each other in the privacy of their culture is their personal affair. Once you bring any information over here (to the taobums) you must be ready for it to be copied, teared apart, criticised, and discussed, and if it resists, well this is our proof that it had actually something valuable inside.

 

If a culture has problem with cartoons they should disallow it in the nations where they are controlling the political power, and they should not go to nations where they cannot handle the cultural requirement.

Killing people of another culture because in their homecountry they follow a culture different from yours is a not a proper answer and will only lead to more violence.

We don't have much cultural requirement about respect but we have a strong cultural requirement about free speech. Who cannot handle it should simply not come to the west.

[gendao]

Actually, speech and knowledge isn't free in the West either - it gets copyrighted and must be paid for.

It's really probably technically more free in China...but only to those deemed worthy of receiving it (based upon ming, yuan fen, 德, etc.).

 

So, I can respect conditional terms that were initially agreed to.

 

Anyhow, the upsides of having a guru are all obvious...expert guidance, safety, etc. etc.

But the downsides are that you don't OWN your information - they do. And so you can't simply do with it what you want. You are borrowing, not owning.

 

The great thing about self-discovery is that you OWN your whole experience. You can talk about it as freely as you wish or don't wish. You can charge for it or dole it out for free. To whoever you want. And you don't have to worry about describing it wrongly, because you are the judge. YOU know what you are trying to say. And you can explore and deviate more from it at will. Real intellectual freedom.

 

Not to mention, I find that when I self-discover things I often fill in some blanks that were missing from the orthodox dogma. A great example of this is Bob Cooley's resistance stretching where he discovered that contracting (not relaxing) the muscle being stretched made all the difference in the world! And this was really key to making yoga work - yet I've never heard it being taught in yoga.

 

There's a real subtle difference between following the Tao and following a finger pointing at the Tao. And yet it is one of those key differences that separates entire paradigms. Ideally, I would like to rely primarily upon self-discovery but using advanced masters to periodically keep me on track and their teachings as verification for what I have already accomplished. I don't think I do well with paint-by-numbers methods. But there's an optimum balance there somewhere.

Edited May 8, 2007 by vortex