A little on David and course costs

[Smile]

I don't believe in judging a cultivation method without studying and practicing it for sometime.

[Lozen]

I think it's rude to post information from private messages.

[Wayfarer64]

Edited May 10, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Lozen]

This mafia crap is really boring.

[Wayfarer64]

This mafia crap is really boring.

 

I guess we need a yawning smiley face.

[Lozen]

I just wish both of you would take the pissing match off the board.

[Wayfarer64]

Can do...Lozen it would be my profound pleasure to end these retorts and arguements... But I will always respond to challanges and lies. Particularly when directed towards systems that i have found worthwhile, by someone who has no credibility other than some erudition.

 

Also I think the correct terminology is Tong crap.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Spectrum]

The usual feeding frenzy.

 

Cult iva ti on

Edited May 10, 2007 by Spectrum

[Pietro]

Is it about Karinna Kittles?

Or Saida Desilets?

 

No. And since I am toying with the idea to tell the whole story don't ask me more, as you might inadvertantly come across the real one, and then I would be forced to shut up, as I will not lie.

[Smile]

 

No. And since I am toying with the idea to tell the whole story don't ask me more, as you might inadvertantly come across the real one, and then I would be forced to shut up, as I will not lie.

C'mon, I know you want to share it

Plus, that was before you got the skillz

[Pietro]

C'mon, I know you want to share it

Plus, that was before you got the skillz

 

Yes, I do. But I have no time. Plus it would not be possible to do it without writing a major essay on David. And I have done that so many times in the past, that I am just annoyed I can't simply link back to it.

 

And you are writing about the skills. Still at a beginning stage, but on this David have moved from being an object of envy to a role model for my cocky and funny routines.

 

Respect me coming over, the link was for a one week summer school at the mind and life institute wanted by the dalai lama to study meditation. They accept only contemplative meditators (most work done on vipassana), and doctors neurophysiologists. Their aim is to study the changes that happen in the brain (and body) due to contemplative meditation. So I applied as a double class (like in AD&D, you know ): scientist and meditator. The inner dissolving being the contemplative practice, and my researchh in artificial life which connects to autopoiesis being the scientific side. Now the Mind and Life institute was founded not just by the Dalai lama, but also by a number of scientists. One of them being Varela, the father of autopoiesis, so this provided a link to my daily research. So I applied thinking that they would never get me. I am not a doctor, and I am not a buddhist, but they did. And it was quite funny having to fill in the form after

what kind of meditation I have been doing:

1. How long have you had a meditation practice?

I have Never Meditated

Less than One Year

One to Two Years

Two to Three Years

More than Three Years

2. Does your meditation practice come from one of the following traditions? If so, which one?

Tibetan (shamata/vipassana)

Theravadan

Zen

Christian

Hindu

Sufism

Judaism

None of the Above

 

More than 3 years-

none of the above

 

Taoism was not even mentioned. I suppose they might have accepted me just to study me

 

The summer school should run for 5 days.

 

The Summer Research Institute will begin in the evening of Sunday, June 3, and continue for 6 days, through noon on Saturday June 9, 2007.

 

So I might come over the week end before, and leave the week end after. During the summer school I will sleep at their institute, but before and after I will need another place for one or maybe two nights. That is when your host would be precious. I also would like to see Plato, and Eric if possible. And, and... are there other taobums in NY?

 

BTW does anyone know what would be a good cheap flight company between dublin and NY?

[Wayfarer64]

 

BTW does anyone know what would be a good cheap flight company between dublin and NY?

 

 

http://www.hotfare.com

 

http://www..lowestfare.com

May be of some help -

 

I offer my place -just an hour from NYC -But it looks like my landlord (AIMCO) may win their case to evict me because I refuse to sign their lease.

I am using a (free) legal services atty. who is amazing but just too busy to be of much use in this. He is going for the expiediant compromise, which won't serve the cause of tenants rights, which is the only reason I am making the effort anyway.. .

I should be able to stay until June 1st no matter what, since there has been no court date set yet. If that can be of use, you are welcome.-

Pat

Edited May 10, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[spyrelx]

The summer school should run for 5 days.

So I might come over the week end before, and leave the week end after. During the summer school I will sleep at their institute, but before and after I will need another place for one or maybe two nights. That is when your host would be precious. I also would like to see Plato, and Eric if possible. And, and... are there other taobums in NY?

 

 

I'm in NY Pietro. Not sure I can host you but would love to meet up if you like. Hell, maybe Sean Denty will be in town and we can all grab that cup of coffee Sean's been so adamant about telling everyone about.

 

Send me a pm when your close to arriving if you'd like to hook up.

[DentyDao]

You are living a lie Denty. If you were not you would not behave as you do.

 

 

The point that you have missed here Pat is the fact that dispite my own addmission that I am not achieved or more than a beginner, the teaching and practices I experienced with David are designed so that anyone, experienced or not, can understand the real meaning of Daoist cultivation once they understand the underlying principles. That's what's so exciting, that an ordinary person like me can easliy grasp why most of the stuff out their that's being presented in the west as Daoist cultivation is very shallow and incomplete. Btw, I have been practicing and researching for over a decade and am a former HT instructor; it's not like I fell off the turnup cart yesterday. I have traveled to Euope and Asia fairly extensively over the past 6 years and learned the secrets of Daoism from people who have achieved th things many her dream of achieving and that have been written about is classical texts, but grossly misunderstood in the west and in China for that matter, the realities of these practices are there for those who look.

 

As for your challenge, I cannot accept. Our school has nothing to do with martial arts really. For what it's worth I'm sorry for any offense you have perceived. I certiany never intended to offend the memory of your Mother. I think that is very clear and there is really no need for you to behave the way you have because I have nothing against you personally. I just happen to think your criticism of me is unskillful and borish.

 

I will share some points from David's recent essay soon; hopefully this help clearify the message I'm putting out and the reason for secrets, etc. It is the masters obligation to keep secrets from his students, it's imortant for teh student's growth and the masters duty to only reveal what that student needs at the right time in his or her development. Simple, but easy to confuse from an outside perspective. Many traditions, such as the Jewish Cabbalists and Christain essenes held and do hold the exact same ways of secrecy and it's a safe gaurd for the student, nothing more. When you understand what cultivation is and how delicate and complex the process of creating the Dan tien and letting the process occur at the right time and in a balenced way, you will understand why the secrets are not secrets; there are actually very important karmic reasins for this and the student can bear that karma for life times if they go to fast or don't proceed according to the teachers perscription which can be different for each student.

 

As for the price of the training. Many of David's masters do actually teach for free and some do not. As has been made clear here, the prices for David's retreat are more expensive than some training and less than others. I happen to think they are pretty reasonable. I really don't see how this is corrupt or evil. The idea that David is somehow putting a price on enlightenment or immortality is not really close to the reality as he is not really garenteeing anything of this magnitude. There are many paths to enlightenment, all require sacrifice.

 

I understand your frustration and I hope we can make peace. The fact that I'm rude and sometimes crass has nothing to do with the truth of the experiences of myself and others. I think someone used the term 'Hornets nest,' this is basically how it gets in this board some times. I'm just one person and I'm human. When I feel unfairly attacked some times I react with sarcasm. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the net. Anyway, as I said I hope we can put our differences aside. I would like to suggest that both parties need to respect eachother more, I think MOST people here see that point.

 

With Love, S

Edited May 10, 2007 by seandenty

[spyrelx]

[Wayfarer64]

The point that you have missed here Pat is the fact that dispite my own addmission that I am not achieved or more than a beginner, the teaching and practices I experienced with David are designed so that anyone, experienced or not, can understand the real meaning of Daoist cultivation once they understand the underlying principles. That's what's so exciting, that an ordinary person like me can easliy grasp why most of the stuff out their that's being presented in the west as Daoist cultivation is very shallow and incomplete. Btw, I have been practicing and researching for over a decade and am a former HT instructor; it's not like I fell off the turnup cart yesterday. I have traveled to Euope and Asia fairly extensively over the past 6 years and learned the secrets of Daoism, which are there for those who look.

 

As for your challenge, I cannot accept. Our school has nothing to do with martial arts really. For what it's worth I'm sorry for any offense you have perceived. I certiany never intended to offend the memory of your Mother. I think that is very clear and there is really no need for you to behave the way you have because I have nothing against you personally. I just happen to think your criticism of me is unskillful and borish.

 

I will share some points from David's recent essay soon; hopefully this help clearify the message I'm putting out and the reason for secrets, etc. It is the masters obligation to keep secrets from his students, it's imortant for teh student's growth and the masters duty to only reveal what that student needs at the right time in his or her development. Simple, but easy to confuse from an outside perspective. Many traditions, such as the Jewish Cabbalists and Christain essenes held and do hold the exact same ways of secrecy and it's a safe gaurd for the student, nothing more. When you understand what cultivation is and how delicate and complex the process of creating the Dan tien and letting the process occur at the right time and in a balenced way, you will understand why the secrets are not secrets; there are actually very important karmic reasins for this and the student can bear that karma for life times if they go to fast or don't proceed according to the teachers perscription which can be different for each student.

 

As for the price of the training. Many of David's masters do actually teach for free and some do not. As has been made clear here, the prices for David's retreat are more expensive than some training and less than others. I happen to think they are pretty reasonable. I really don't see how this is corrupt or evil. The idea that David is somehow putting a price on enlightenment or immortality is not really close to the reality as he is not really garenteeing anything of this magnitude. There are many paths to enlightenment, all require sacrifice.

 

I understand your frustration and I hope we can make peace. The fact that I'm rude and sometimes crass has nothing to do with the truth of the experiences of myself and others. I think someone used the term 'Hornets nest,' this is basically how it gets in this board some times. I'm just one person and I'm human. When I feel unfairly attacked some times I react with sarcasm. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the net. Anyway, as I said I hope we can put our differences aside. I would like to suggest that both parties need to respect eachother more, I think MOST people here see that point.

 

With Love, S

Now you are making sense Sean.

I do think though, that what you believe to be very clear is seldon transmitted to us in a very clear manner.

 

Your last post had the tone of someone who is not a fool playing at spiritual searching. Knowing that you can be reasonable and open-minded and compassionate in spirit, gives me hope for all mankind! Keep that mind-set and these flame-ups will not happen.

 

I accept your appology and return mine in kind- I do not have anything but respect for yr erudition and yearning to understand Taoist concepts.

 

I in turn have little erudition and lots of experience. Such an Oil and water mixture needs severe shaking to ever create an emultion. And that state of inter-mixture seldom lasts very long, at least on any noticable plane of existance. At the quantum level things changed a hell of a lot and some inter-mixture will remain as part of the new constant in flux...So there is hope for us yet to get past these bouts of animosity.

 

I hope we are on the same "side of the light" in most ways. My serious concerns & doubts about David's system may be, and I indeed hope are, ill founded.

 

When we each & both get and keep our minds back into the cause of our efforts ... where we are striving to find ourselves, our inter-actions will be smoother.

Namaste-PDG

Edited May 10, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[spyrelx]

Oh, I can feel the love.

 

 

 

I also notice there's about 8 people on line reading this thread right now. Don't you people have jobs or something?

[Pietro]

http://www.hotfare.com

 

http://www..lowestfare.com

May be of some help -

 

I offer my place -just an hour from NYC -But it looks like my landlord (AIMCO) may win their case to evict me because I refuse to sign their lease.

I am using a (free) legal services atty. who is amazing but just too busy to be of much use in this. He is going for the expiediant compromise, which won't serve the cause of tenants rights, which is the only reason I am making the effort anyway.. .

I should be able to stay until June 1st no matter what, since there has been no court date set yet. If that can be of use, you are welcome.-

Pat

 

Thank you Pat,

I will check your url out.

 

I think I'll stay at Max place.

I have been there before, and I am confident that Max will not force me to read Bodri's book... too much .

I would love to meet up as I come to New York.

Pietro

 

I'm in NY Pietro. Not sure I can host you but would love to meet up if you like. Hell, maybe Sean Denty will be in town and we can all grab that cup of coffee Sean's been so adamant about telling everyone about.

 

Send me a pm when your close to arriving if you'd like to hook up.

 

Sure we should meet up. I probably will be around only for a day or two so I suspect we should just throw a taobum party and get everybody to sign up. I mean it doesn't have to be at Max place if he isn't happy to have all those martial artists coming around and just fooling around as usual. I am sure Max and Plato will know all sort of cool public places around there. And who can't come should just turn up in their chi or shen body.

[Yen Hui]

Max will not force me to read Bodri's book... too much

 

Awe, come on, Max. Don't let him off that easy!

[Pietro]

I accept your appology and return mine in kind- I do not have anything but respect for yr erudition and yearning to understand Taoist concepts.

 

 

No com'on Pat, you can't do this. Not to all of us who have been here silently cheering.

Think of all he have said, do you think it is enough to just say that his tradition is a non martial one.

Com'on I'll invite him to meet up when I am in New York and then two of you can have your little discussion while we film. We'll get the Cameron video for real! And then we can sell the video for thousands of dollars, and use the money to get the training in Denmark.

 

Regarding the second sentence in the quote above, any honest reading of your posts and mine over the last few months would show that you are demonstrably ruder, nastier, vindictive, childish, etc. by MANY MANY TIMES than I am.

 

You are more childish than me-e! La-la-la-la-la-la.

 

I will check your url out.

 

Hmm, Unfortunately the url only handles flight inside the US. This is the fact, there are plenty of cheap companies that work inside the US, or inside Europe. It's moving from one to the other that is expensive. Maybe I should go to Groenland (which I gather is Denmark) cross with a ferry to Canada, and then get a cheap flight to NY.

[Yen Hui]

It is the masters obligation to keep secrets from his students, it's imortant for teh student's growth and

the masters duty to only reveal what that student needs at the right time in his or her development.

 

It's not that I wish to interfer in anything, but I would have to agree with this much, for whatever it's worth.

I am not a master, for sure, and probably know less than many members here, but I think it is common sense

that a student's timely progress depends on his/her being whole-heartedly concentrated on the lesson at hand;

and not being bothered with or about things way above his head. A good master would only encourage that

kind of concentration, I should think; and entirely avoid distracting him with esoterica that is way beyond his

ability or degree of achievement. Orderly progress is gradual and follows a well-defined path, one step at a

time. Skipping steps in an effort to leap ahead will only lead to misfortune, in the end, I feel.

[Spectrum]

Ironically who talks and who walks. Taoist Art is defensive. The nature of dialog is multidimensional. Thoughts so easily become/are actions. To heal and hurt is a serious responsibility, leave your ego at the gate of emptiness, balance requires clarity. Challenges reveal & conceal.

 

Touching hands should be enough for seekers.

 

Spectrum

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

There is no logical connection between the first sentence and the second. Of course I'm interested in David's teachings. And again, why should I be ashamed of that? But me being interested doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you or he says (or, frankly, even by nice to you or him).

 

I have, publicly and privately, tried to get you to be less angry and adolescent and to have a mature dialogue with you. And I may continue to try. I'm not ashamed of that either, I don't think it's hypocritical and if you're offended by it . . . well, I guess that's just another irrational thing you have to be angry about.

 

Regarding the second sentence in the quote above, any honest reading of your posts and mine over the last few months would show that you are demonstrably ruder, nastier, vindictive, childish, etc. by MANY MANY TIMES than I am. Like everyone else I get snippy.

 

You have answered your own question here. You are far too concerned about me and my behavior. It's silly. Why would you care so much, it pretentous; you don't even know me.

 

Of course there is a logical connection. You're trying to judge whether or not David's teaching is valid based on one of his student's behavior; as you keep insisting over and over again. David has hundreds of practicing students. Don't you see how nonsensical this is. This would be like me saying, "one of Michael Winn's students called me a gerk, so I now will make it my personal mission to hold that student accountable because 'I' need to see if Michael's student meets my standards of politness before I decide to learn from Michael."

 

I have just reacted to this incorrect approach with a bit of sarcasm from the beginning, which you then interpret as hatred and anger. It's you own feelings that are being reflected, not mine. I just think you are silly.

 

I'd be glad to share that coffee now, but if you think I'm flying to New York just so David and his masters can prove the efficacy of their teaching to you, you are sadly mistaken.

 

Be well, S

Edited May 10, 2007 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

It's not that I wish to interfer in anything, but I would have to agree with this much, for whatever it's worth.

I am not a master, for sure, and probably know less than many members here, but I think it is common sense

that a student's timely progress depends on his/her being whole-heartedly concentrated on the lesson at hand;

and not being bothered with or about things way above his head. A good master would only encourage that

kind of concentration, I should think; and entirely avoid distracting him with esoterica that is way beyond his

ability or degree of achievement. Orderly progress is gradual and follows a well-defined path, one step at a

time. Skipping steps in an effort to leap ahead will only lead to misfortune, in the end, I feel.

 

 

This is pretty close to what I'm saying, but not really the 'whole' issue, which has far more to do with the temptation for people to practice something that would only hurt and hinder their progress. Once a student has progressed to a certain level, many things are revealed, but so is the correct understanding of how to progress without stunting your development. Certain practices which are totally authentic, if done at the wrong time in the student's development, can actually cause so much damage that the student loses the ability to cultivate what they wer trying to in the first place, sometime permently.

 

This has huge karmic implications. It's also why the attitude that everything should just be free and out in the open is dangerous and foolish. This will be always misunderstood by people who lack experience and understanding. This is very common in the public eye to see people screaming about 'black magick and money scams.' Even if we look at history, this is practically par for the course. What people don't understand is that this is the test of the divine; the masters don't create this invisible wall it's just there, totally independent of anyone's will. If people want to learn cultivation they need to risk everything. This goes for all traditions and all spiritual practices if the goal is really enlightenment. If you think seeing the face of God, or Dao is going to happen whith you still holding on to doubts and fears and that you can just test the waters and see if the temperture suits your comfort level, you might as well give up now.

 

There are a few interested in David's work, I would guess, who look very carefully at how well I'm received here as a measure of whether or not they should take David's course. This is a classic blunder that happens in spiritual groups of every nation and variety. It's like people at Sunday mass, or temple ignoring the message of the Rabbi or priest and paying attention to the crying babies and what people are wearing and who is dating the preachers son It has nothing to do with the opportunity at hand and they miss the blessing as well.