Christian Mysticism

[Apech]

On your evolution point... I guess it depends on where one thinks evolution is naturally "taking" the human form. What do you think "happens through spiritual work - which is something greater and more significant"?

 

 

I think what I was trying to say is that if you simply waited for eons without any spiritual searching or cultivation then would that lead to the same conclusion as 'enlightenment' - its just a thought and I don't want to go too off topic.

[rene]

ॐDominicusॐ, outstanding post.

Thank you. _/\_

I just want to speak from experience. When I was in early 20's, I got deep into Christianity and eventually got baptized. Quickly after the Baptizm, I was indwelled by a conscious Spirit being that killed off my ego and replaced it with Divine Love of all beings, nonjudgment, bliss, inner channels flowing, it was basically activated grace.

Eventually I reached Dark night of the Soul. The only thing that remained was awareness and heart, as well as dipping in and out of the No-I state.

So Christ was a purveyor, I believe, of Enlightenment through Grace. Of course in the NT he was basically dumbing everything down to the jews stuck in 800-some-odd rules they were trying to follow where no one was reaching enlightenment. Judaism is a dead school, unless you work on the Kabbalah.

Also I thing the OT/NT is for the simple minded average joes, but the nag hamadi, gospel of thomas, etc, is for those who have Grace activated and need deeper teachings. Even in the NT it says that once you get the Holy Spirit (Grace Activated) that no man can teach any more, because you are learning from direct mystical experiences which are transcendent and can only be know from direct experience.

That was roughly 12-15 years ago, and since then I have had/been in a constant Now, timelessness, transcendence, detachment from all labels, direct mystical experiences.

I don't think Christ came to start a religion, but to destroy all religions which eventually get corrupted and become exoteric shells of what they are supposed to be originally.

Technically, the term "Christian" was given to those who followed Christs blueprint, by outsiders looking in. The original Christians called themselves the Followers of "The Way."

"The Way" ...is a way of no labels, no church, no religions, detachment, enlightenment, Tao/God, Grace, Love, acceptance of all, and much much more.

What we see in the US is a massive exoteric shell that came here based off Catholicism and the majority of is watered down.

In my parlance, it is called WuDao, 無道, no fixed path, and you are right, it is so much much more. It is the natural mechanism for approaching all worlds. (-:

 

warmest regards

 

[Jeff]

I think what I was trying to say is that if you simply waited for eons without any spiritual searching or cultivation then would that lead to the same conclusion as 'enlightenment' - its just a thought and I don't want to go too off topic.

 

Fair enough...

 

On the topic, what is your (or anyone else's) concept on the definition of the "second coming" of the Christ? (Your turn to go first)...

[Apech]

Fair enough...

 

On the topic, what is your (or anyone else's) concept on the definition of the "second coming" of the Christ? (Your turn to go first)...

 

 

The Johannine succession and the quote from John "what is it to thee if he tarry till I come" always stuck in my mind. So I think the main transmission was to John and this was the beginning of the new phase of the lineage ... since Christ was the culmination. So in this sense the second coming is end point of a new cycle of teachings post the life of Jesus. Beyond that I have to thought .. tell me what you think.

[Jeff]

The Johannine succession and the quote from John "what is it to thee if he tarry till I come" always stuck in my mind. So I think the main transmission was to John and this was the beginning of the new phase of the lineage ... since Christ was the culmination. So in this sense the second coming is end point of a new cycle of teachings post the life of Jesus. Beyond that I have to thought .. tell me what you think.

 

My perspective is a little different. Depending on the context, I think it means both the "enlightenment" of the individual, but also, more interesting for our discussion, the coming of a second Christ ( or Maitreya Buddha). Evolution (or the Holy Spirit) marches on, or as Jesus says "greater works are coming"...

 

 

John 14:10-12

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

[Seth Ananda]

I see the second coming within a looser more allegorical frame. I see it as personal, although if enough of us get there, we may start awakening others...

 

But it says Christ will return to the Hearts and Minds of all mankind.

 

It describes seven mighty trumpets being played that open the 7 seals, and cause all mankind to drop to its knees.

 

It describes a river passing 32 gates {vertebrae} and branching into 8 streams {cranial nerves}... {ill have to check that again, its been a while}

 

 

Christ returns to our {personal} awareness, our seals/chakras open and we fall to our Knees rejoicing.

[3bob]

it's interesting that there are many interested in this subject at this site...

 

Here is another point to consider among others: Jesus did not name a successor as happens in many other traditions, although he did choose key helpers and representatives to carry on the work. (in His name)

 

The Golden Jesus I've met has complete freedom and power within the wheel... as for further who knows?

[Jeff]

it's interesting that there are many interested in this subject at this site...

 

Here is another point to consider among others: Jesus did not name a successor as happens in many other traditions, although he did choose key helpers and representatives to carry on the work. (in His name)

 

The Golden Jesus I've met has complete freedom and power within the wheel... as for further who knows?

Hi 3bob,

 

I would definitely agree that the Jesus that I have met has complete freedom and power within the wheel.

 

Regarding a successor... The following words are from the Gospel of Thomas...

 

12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?" Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

 

May be why the Roman bishops and emperor did not include the Gospel of Thomas in the early bible...

[rene]

Jeff, before I read your post re James the Just - my thinking was no successor because none of the disciples had the same perspective as Jesus, i.e. understanding what he understood, seeing as he saw.

 

Does the Gospel of Thomas suggest that James also understood these things - in the same manner that Jesus understood them? Or is your take that maybe Jesus thought James was the closest to seeing? Or?

 

And if so, then yes, I can see how that would keep the Gospel of Thomas out of the Bible.

[3bob]

Hello Jeff,

 

I'm not familiar with the text you quoted or its related context - namely, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being"; ...but it doesn't make sense as stated being that "heaven and earth" coming into being is obviously about and involves myriads more than just one soul even a very great soul!

 

Also Jesus does talk about or say something sending the Holy Ghost/comforter, although I haven't read much from the Bible in a long time.

[Apech]

 

Hello Jeff,

 

I'm not familiar with the text you quoted or its related context - namely, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being"; ...but it doesn't make sense as stated being that "heaven and earth" coming into being is obviously about and involves myriads more than just one soul even a very great soul!

 

Also Jesus does talk about or say something sending the Holy Ghost/comforter, although I haven't read much from the Bible in a long time.

 

 

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

John 16.7

 

Jesus' departure was necessary so that the Holy Spirit would come.

[Jeff]

Jeff, before I read your post re James the Just - my thinking was no successor because none of the disciples had the same perspective as Jesus, i.e. understanding what he understood, seeing as he saw.

 

Does the Gospel of Thomas suggest that James also understood these things - in the same manner that Jesus understood them? Or is your take that maybe Jesus thought James was the closest to seeing? Or?

 

And if so, then yes, I can see how that would keep the Gospel of Thomas out of the Bible.

Hi Rene,

 

The Gospel of Thomas is primarily a list of sayings of Jesus and does not give any more details about levels of understanding. But, other gospels (that did not make the cut) speak to it directly. They describe that there was sort of an inner/higher understanding group that was led by James and Mary Magdolene and a outer/lower understanding for the masses that was led by Peter. There is even a gospel where one of the apostles actually tells Peter to stop being sexist and listen to Mary Magdolene, because they all knew that Jesus loved her (and her understanding of his words was) best.

 

Many gnostic Christians see the lineage flowing through Mary Magdolene as Jesus's living in the world consort/partner. At one point the Cathlolic church made up the story that she was a protestitute to undermine the perspective. Amazingly, the Catholic church has retracted the statement (admitting that it was wrong) in recent times, but the "story" persists.

 

Best,

Jeff

[Jeff]

Hello Jeff,

 

I'm not familiar with the text you quoted or its related context - namely, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being"; ...but it doesn't make sense as stated being that "heaven and earth" coming into being is obviously about and involves myriads more than just one soul even a very great soul!

 

Also Jesus does talk about or say something sending the Holy Ghost/comforter, although I haven't read much from the Bible in a long time.

 

Hi 3bob,

 

In gnostic Christian terms, the purpose the existence (or Heaven and Earth) is for a soul to realize their oneness in God. Kind of like giving a stable environment for the growth and development as a full child of God. Rather than saying that it was just specifically for James, the text is referencing him as an example of a very advanced soul with a clue. It is sort of the "positive" version of the "don't throw pearls to pigs" statements in the gospels.

 

Also, I will touch on your Holy Ghost comment in my response to Apech.

 

Regards,

Jeff

[Jeff]

 

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

John 16.7

 

Jesus' departure was necessary so that the Holy Spirit would come.

These words are very important in describing what Jesus did and what a "Christ" is...

 

It is always very challenging to describe things like this without an agreed upon set of "defined" terms (that is why I often use Dzogche/Buddhist ones). It may be helpful for those who are interested to review my old thread on the stage of progression in the contributed articles section. http://thetaobums.com/topic/25866-stages-of-progressionenlightenment/

 

As one develops spirtitually, they go through various levels of perception. First the local mind, then beginning aspects of "universal mind", and ultimately aspects of "oneness". When one truly realizes oneness, they know that they are all beings and can also "be with" all beings. Hence, at the level of oneness you can gain knowledge/insight from various divine beings. In Christian terms, they are angels, saints and divine beings like Jesus & Mary (in other traditions various Gods and Buddhas or visiting higher heavens).

 

Historically, reaching these higher beings and higher energies was very rare and required a significantly advanced soul ( beyond the 7th chakra in a seven Chakra system). As I said in the previous network analogy, normally a living master/guru would be the conduit. In living form Jesus had realized beyond the sort of "universal human" level of oneness and could be with all souls/beings that wished to share presence with him. Normally, that would be lost upon his leaving the material plane. But, in his acension, he sort of became a the "living network" or connected everyone to the "community of Christ". This network upgrade made it possible to "feel" the Holy Spirit at "less evolved" spiritual levels. He lowered the bar so that anyone with an "open heart" (or open 4th chakra) could start to notice the broader aspects of existence (in God).

 

Peace,

Jeff

[3bob]

Jeff,

 

The information you gave in #38 partly addresses or answers my previous post, but I would not make the distinction about advanced souls as you did since creation is for all souls at any and all levels.

 

p.s. I see the throwing of Buddhism (of any school) into the "Christian" mix as being highly problematic, to say the least. Btw, some forms of Hinduism have some similar aspects to some forms of Buddhism but the two are still 180 degrees apart when it comes to certain principles and to mix them up even when there is some cultural common ground often brings grief and confusion.

Edited August 21, 2013 by 3bob

[Jeff]

Jeff,

 

The information you gave in #38 partly addresses or answers my previous post, but I would not make the distinction about advanced souls as you did since creation is for all souls at any and all levels.

 

p.s. I see the throwing of Buddhism (of any school) into the "Christian" mix as being highly problematic, to say the least. Btw, some forms of Hinduism have some similar aspects to some forms of Buddhism but the two are still 180 degrees apart when it comes to certain principles and to mix them up even when there is some cultural common ground often brings grief and confusion.

Hi 3bob,

 

I definitely agree with you on the all souls point and apologize if my words were confusing. The "no pearls for pigs" concept is really more about the "right information" for the right time.

 

Regarding your p.s., how do you feel that I am throwing Buddhism into the Christian mix?

[Apech]

Hi 3bob,

 

I definitely agree with you on the all souls point and apologize if my words were confusing. The "no pearls for pigs" concept is really more about the "right information" for the right time.

 

Regarding your p.s., how do you feel that I am throwing Buddhism into the Christian mix?

 

Hey guys,

 

I don't want this thread to turn into another Buddhism/Christian thread ... I agree these may be important points but is there any chance you can either keep that discussion short and sweet or elsewhere on another thread/ or PMs possibly?

 

Thanks.

 

A.

[3bob]

I have somewhat of a thick hide and skull so mixing things up no longer causes me much of a conceptual abrasion, but I know it once did and can do the same with others depending on where they are at (?)... Anyway with many of the members here having mixes of concepts, practices, traditions, etc. I don't see how Apech can keep things all nice and pure conceptually but good luck in trying to do so. (thus I'm more or less checking out of this string)

 

Btw, here is one small example quoted from Jeff: "My perspective is a little different. Depending on the context, I think it means both the "enlightenment" of the individual, but also, more interesting for our discussion, the coming of a second Christ ( or Maitreya Buddha). Evolution (or the Holy Spirit) marches on, or as Jesus says "greater works are coming"... I also did a little mixing in one of my posts when mentioning the "Wheel".

Edited August 21, 2013 by 3bob

[Apech]

I have somewhat of a thick hide and skull so mixing things up no longer causes me much of a conceptual abrasion, but I know it once did and can do the same with others depending on where they are at (?)... Anyway with many of the members here having mixes of concepts, practices, traditions, etc. I don't see how Apech can keep things all nice and pure conceptually but good luck in trying to do so. (thus I'm more or less checking out of this string)

 

Btw, here is one small example quoted from Jeff: "My perspective is a little different. Depending on the context, I think it means both the "enlightenment" of the individual, but also, more interesting for our discussion, the coming of a second Christ ( or Maitreya Buddha). Evolution (or the Holy Spirit) marches on, or as Jesus says "greater works are coming"... I also did a little mixing in one of my posts when mentioning the "Wheel".

 

Sorry you feel that way. I don't object to the occasional cross reference and maybe I jumped in a little too soon there but there's a ton the threads on Jesus and Buddhism and we don't need another one. If you have checked out you won't read this ... but if you do please feel free to contribute along the lines of developing ideas about Christian Mysticism.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 16, 2015 by 三江源

[idiot_stimpy]

From what I read, it could be deduced that the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost are the Spirit, Mind and the physical world.

 

 

The only way to the Father is through the Son.

 

The only way to the Spirit is through the Mind.

 

 

The Son must die in order to be reborn.

 

The mind must die in order to be reborn.

 

 

How does it die, by sitting in emptiness/complete surrender to the Father.

[Jeff]

Hi 3bob,

 

Like you I have a pretty tough hide on these things. I find the greatest challenge is to find words in which one can agree to the meanings. Hence, rather than attempting to mix traditions, I periodically slip in using another tradition's word/term because I think it has a more universally agreed meaning for the Toabum readers.

 

To respond to you point, while also staying on topic for Apech, I will give a quick overview regarding what "comes" in the broader second coming (the reader can do their own comparision or not to other traditions...).

 

As I mentioned before, for Jesus to "help" in growth towards God, direct communion (or Union) with "form" of the master was necessary. The master becomes the network or broader path.. With the second coming, there is an even broader expansion. Human potential has expanded, allowing the integration of all paths. The human network now allows for greater and broader network processing and expanded oneness with all of the "other" human networks (traditions) and people. It is kind of like there is now a multidimensional internet, where in the past only multiple separate computer networks existed. Additionally, the new network expands beyond time and to all "parallel" human world systems.

 

That one should give everyone something to discuss.

 

(edit - comma and ")" )

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jeff

[rene]

I agree with Cat in hopes that 3bob stays. I think it's easy for us to see how different traditions call these things by different names - even though the concepts developed downstream vary.

 

Adding in my nomenclature to what idiot_stimpy just shared:

 

 

From what I read, it could be deduced that the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost are the Spirit, Mind and the physical world, and are the Mystery, Manifest and nature of the Way.

 

 

The only way to the Father is through the Son.

The only way to the Spirit is through the Mind.

The way to the Mystery is through the Manifest

 

The Son must die in order to be reborn.

The mind must die in order to be reborn.

The Manifest must not be held as exclusive, in order to understand the nature of the Way.

 

How does it die, by sitting in emptiness/complete surrender to the Father.

How do we know these things? Because of this! (ddj21)

 

I very much appreciate this thread and learning how the depths (Mysticism) of Christianity also sees what others see, and hearing the words - especially of other traditions - of everyone here.

 

 

 

[Apech]

In what sense is the Holy Spirit the physical world - I don't quite get that - can someone explain a bit more?

[Seth Ananda]

not saying I agree necessarily, but the Holy Spirit is the Shekinah.

 

Shekinah is the 'female' face of God, and some see part of her as being existence. The part of God that Is the World...

 

Also in the flow of wisdom traditions the words Shekinah, Shakti and Sekhem all share the same root...

 

Shak, Shek and Sek... Female power, and the manifest display...