Christian Mysticism

[3bob]

Thanks to all the folks who gave a vote of confidence for my involvement here, that was cool,

I'll check in now and then. Bob

[Apech]

not saying I agree necessarily, but the Holy Spirit is the Shekinah.

 

Shekinah is the 'female' face of God, and some see part of her as being existence. The part of God that Is the World...

 

Also in the flow of wisdom traditions the words Shekinah, Shakti and Sekhem all share the same root...

 

Shak, Shek and Sek... Female power, and the manifest display...

 

 

I agree with that ... but that does not = physical world does it. Anyway I think the Trinity is a good subject to explore a little more ... but its late here and I'm going to bed so tomorrow is another day.

[stefos]

Hi everyone,

 

Here's something:

 

Non-duality in Genesis!

 

God & Adam & Eve.......1st Non-Duality

Adam & Eve being called "Adam"...........2nd Non-Duality

 

Non-duality in the New Testament!

 

"Before the foundation of the world, we were in Christ"

"Before the foundation of the world, The lamb of God was slain"

 

As Jacob Boehme would say "God is Love reposing in Love"

[rene]

Apech..if it's this "From what I read, it could be deduced that the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost are the Spirit, Mind and the physical world." of Idiot_stimpy's you're asking about... he just mixed the terms out of order in the sentence - but they straightened out in his below stuff. If it's otherwise, he can clarify. G'nite.

[Seth Ananda]

I agree with that ... but that does not = physical world does it.

Some times yes. The Shekinah is referred to numerous times as being the world. I sometimes think of her as being the immanent side where God 'Is' the world as opposed the to God that 'contains' yet is beyond the world...

Anyway I think the Trinity is a good subject to explore a little more ... but its late here and I'm going to bed so tomorrow is another day.

Good night!

[Jeff]

In what sense is the Holy Spirit the physical world - I don't quite get that - can someone explain a bit more?

Hi Apech,

 

The Holy Spirit is also called the "word" in the bible. It is the primal "vibration" that defines all energy. All form or the physical world is made of energy. Hence, the Holy Spirit is the aspect of God that is manifest in energy/form.

 

Regards,

Jeff

[Seth Ananda]

In living form Jesus had realized beyond the sort of "universal human" level of oneness and could be with all souls/beings that wished to share presence with him. Normally, that would be lost upon his leaving the material plane. But, in his acension, he sort of became a the "living network" or connected everyone to the "community of Christ". This network upgrade made it possible to "feel" the Holy Spirit at "less evolved" spiritual levels. He lowered the bar so that anyone with an "open heart" (or open 4th chakra) could start to notice the broader aspects of existence (in God).

 

Peace,

Jeff

 

Very interesting. One of the things I love about the Christian tradition is how relationship focused it is.

 

The ultimate healing it aims for is the healing of the heart, which comes about through the relationship of Jesus to the heart, by allowing Jesus to see and meet and love every dusty corner within it...

 

I have been surprised to see how much genuine mysticism there is still alive and being practiced in Christianity today ~ Even seemingly dodgy exoteric communities. {I still dont like their dogma though lol}

 

 

As a side note, the reason I could never stay too long with various Non duality paths, is that they bring complete satisfaction to the mind yet the heart stays wanting. The heart can only find perfect happiness within the deepest relationship...

Edited August 22, 2013 by Seth Ananda

[Apech]

Insomnia ... so just wanted to post this:

 

 

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.[5]

 

So a great wind and tongues of flame ... this is the Holy Spirit ... surely.

[idiot_stimpy]

Esoteric Christianity is an interesting one. It has well been kept under lock and key like the western mystery traditions.

 

Many people are flocking to eastern religions, as out of their compassion they have opened up their highest and most secret teachings to the west.

[Apech]

Hi Apech,

 

The Holy Spirit is also called the "word" in the bible. It is the primal "vibration" that defines all energy. All form or the physical world is made of energy. Hence, the Holy Spirit is the aspect of God that is manifest in energy/form.

 

Regards,

Jeff

 

I don't quite agree with this. The 'word' is Logos which is Christ which is the Son. or that is my understanding.

[Seth Ananda]

Logos in neo platonism and in much esoteric christianity is the divine animating principle, the Gods creativity...

 

I am trying to remember where Plotinus put it in his cosmology, I think with spirit/nous which is the Ones first expression and is the world of divine forms, but ill check that and get back to you...

[Apech]

Just some thoughts on the Trinity (this reflects how I was taught by a Christian Hermeticist):

 

The Trinity , three persons in one, is an ancient idea or way of looking at things which appears in the pre-Classical religions as well as Christianity. I don't mean this is a Zeitgeist kind of a way, I am not saying that this invalidates Christianity but actually it affirms it. The Egyptians, for instance, often grouped gods in father, mother, child trinities and also there was the sun with a three-fold soul.

 

The experience of the presence of the persons of the Trinity is profound, moving, joyful and ecstatic, so in analysing the meaning I am not trying to make it into a dry philosophy but just to elaborate the concepts behind the Trinity (as I see them) for clarities sake.

 

The idea of God as a person, or three persons, is interesting. It also provokes a reaction from many who prefer the impersonal ideas of energy, consciousness or spirit. So God as a person marks out the Abrahamic religions in this respect. But we have to understand what 'person' means. It is derived from a word for 'mask' and was the mask worn by actors in the Greek and Roman theatre. So the actor would speak through a mask which depicted the character he was playing. Some derive the word from 'through sounding' as it refers to the voice of the actor coming through the mask. Either way the idea is that what you see is the mask, behind the mask is the actor (Spirit) which appears in certain forms to you.

 

The three persons, or characters in this case are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a kind of disguised version of the female Shekinah, or the immanent world soul, that is the presence of Spirit in being.

 

Beyond, but not beyond in space, but behind perhaps the Trinity is the Godhead, the ineffable absolute about which it is difficult, impossible in fact to speak directly. We go to the Godhead via the Trinity and also within the Trinity to the Father via the Son.

 

There is no Father without a Son, nor Mother either. Until a child is born people are not 'parents'. So Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) spring into being at once. This is why, I think, it say the 'word' the Logos, the Son was with God in the beginning. If we say God the Father is the originating power which creates everything, which brings into being the whole cosmos, then the Son is the Light, and light is about communication and information from point to point within that cosmos, it's structure in other words. So the creative power and the structure of that which created sponge into being together, as does the Holy Spirit which is the dynamic within this relationship. So we can say, power, form and function are 'one'. Except they are not 'one in the sense of the same but one in that they arise as a consequence of each other. The Trinity then to my way of thinking is a non-dualism.

 

So you could say there is one actor, the Absolute, the hidden Godhead and it has three masks, three personas, through which it is expressed.

 

If someone were to object to this saying, that it is not a person but an impersonal energy or some such then the answer is that you cannot constrain the Absolute by saying it is absolute in everything but it cannot be a 'person'. the absolute can be either a person or a not-person, or neither or both. If you constrain it then it is not absolute, it is limited to all that is not a person.

[Apech]

Logos in neo platonism and in much esoteric christianity is the divine animating principle, the Gods creativity...

 

I am trying to remember where Plotinus put it in his cosmology, I think with spirit/nous which is the Ones first expression and is the world of divine forms, but ill check that and get back to you...

 

 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

 

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[C T]

I don't quite agree with this. The 'word' is Logos which is Christ which is the Son. or that is my understanding.

I thought Christ is Son only when he became flesh. What about before manifesting in the flesh.. maybe there is room to consider the Word (in the beginning before being made flesh) as the Holy Spirit as Jeff mentioned. I can see how its not hard to see it this way since the Trinity is essentially One and not separated.

 

(sorry for interrupting)

[Apech]

I thought Christ is Son only when he became flesh. What about before manifesting in the flesh.. maybe there is room to consider the Word (in the beginning before being made flesh) as the Holy Spirit as Jeff mentioned. I can see how its not hard to see it this way since the Trinity is essentially One and not separated.

 

(sorry for interrupting)

 

That's not how I understand it ... but I shall wait for others to comment.

 

Don't apologise for interrupting by the way ... this is a discussion after all

[RiverSnake]

 

 

As a side note, the reason I could never stay too long with various Non duality paths, is that they bring complete satisfaction to the mind yet the heart stays wanting. The heart can only find perfect happiness within the deepest relationship...

 

Seth, I find the above very interesting. Could you perhaps elaborate on your experiences in this area?

 

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[Jeff]

I think that Apech's posting of the beginning of the gospel of John is a helpful point in the overall discussion. But, I believe that a few more lines will paint a more complete picture of the topic. Below are the words with my comments added...

 

 

John 1: 1-15 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

In the beginning of "existence", the Holy Spirit was with God and was God. (Or Form=Void and Void=Form)

 

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Everything is made by and also "from" God. No separation. Everything is God stuff.

 

⁴ In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

God is life and this "life" is the self-awareness of men. It is a reference to man being in the image of God.

 

⁵ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The light of God(or Holy Spirit) is everywhere, but it is not noticed in existence.

 

⁶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

⁷ The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

⁸ He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

John describing himself. Here to tell about it, but not "enlightened".

 

⁹ That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Now John is telling us... That the Holy Spirit (and God) is in every person that exists.

 

¹⁰ He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

The Holy Spirit is in the world and made of/by him (as God in existence), but nobody notices.

 

¹¹ He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

The Holy Spirit reaches out to everyone, but no one pays attention.

 

¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

But, anyone who pays attention, he teaches to be a son of God (not only "one" son) or "enlightened".

 

¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Which is not a product of the body or the mind, but beyond mind (of God).

 

¹⁴ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now we are finally starting to talk about Jesus...

 

¹⁵ John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John telling us that Jesus is enlightened or a true "son of God".

The story of Jesus told by John continues from this point...

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Jetsun]

As a side note, the reason I could never stay too long with various Non duality paths, is that they bring complete satisfaction to the mind yet the heart stays wanting. The heart can only find perfect happiness within the deepest relationship...

 

Adyashanti says some interesting things about this, he studied with Zen masters for about 20 years but when he talks about opening the heart he generally talks about the Christian mystics more than the Zen or Vedanta masters. Where the Christian path differs and has its strength is that it brings your entire life onto the path, there is a complete embrace of your entire humanity; the essential gist from his interpretation of Christianity is that life/god/tao is always bringing you towards the things you need to confront and the things you try to avoid in yourself through your regular day to day life through the tough people and experiences we have to deal with, yet we tend to try avoid these things brought to us or resent these problems, I have noticed this in my life how I seem to draw towards myself the things I most try to avoid or are scared of. Anything you have failed to embrace and love is going to be constantly drawn towards you in day to day life until you have embraced it, life itself it trying to bring you back to harmony and wholeness yet we always curse our luck and resent life when we are confronted with exactly the thing we need to grow and label it a problem.

 

So the Christian path is a way to start to say yes to all of life to embrace it all with all its problems, the life of Jesus is an example of this, he didn't have a nice quiet life sitting in the mountains meditating, he went from one catostrophe to another without friction without saying no to whatever he was confronted with. There are others like St John of the Cross and Dag Hammarskjold who embraced life no matter the problem or stress involved in a similar way, saying yes to it all it opened their heart to it all.

[rene]

Jetsun, agree and well stated.

 

Any path that includes both non-dual and the fullness and richness of communion with life, would be more fulfilling, imo. Is Christianity the only tradition that supports this concept of Both? I don't know; perhaps someone here does.

[3bob]

Main line Christianity does not support non-dualism, since one remains a separate creation/soul. As far as what semi-secret or secret "esoteric" Christianity supports who knows? (or has the need to know until they have the need to know?)

[rene]

3bob - right. My question should have been more clear. Thanks!

[Apech]

 

I think that Apech's posting of the beginning of the gospel of John is a helpful point in the overall discussion. But, I believe that a few more lines will paint a more complete picture of the topic. Below are the words with my comments added...

 

 

<...>

The story of Jesus told by John continues from this point...

Best wishes,

Jeff

 

The first John referred to is John the Baptist and not the Apostle John.

 

I still feel you are mixing the Logos and the Holy Spirit and prefer the Holy Spirit as Shakhinah of Seth (I think)

 

But maybe its a mute point since they are three in one anyway.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

isnt Logos the masculine singlepointedness and the Holy Spirit a movement, a wind, a definite counterpoint to the Logos.

 

that's more like how I see it ... do you have a source for this?

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat