Christian Mysticism

[Aetherous]

Good reminder that whatever we say or understand on here is 'through a glass darkly' or 'poor reflection in a mirror' and incomplete. BTW seeing 'face to face' is another ancient expression which occurs in pagan religions too - I say this to affirm that Christianity is part of the western tradition and not just a stand alone or even a sub-Judaic path.

 

Can you expand on this? What does it mean?

[Apech]

Can you expand on this? What does it mean?

 

 

Well I don't want to divert from Christian Mysticism too much BUT ... in the Egyptian temples there was a daily ceremony which is called the Ritual of the Divine Cult. The priest after purification entered the temple through the six gateways to the Holy of Holies where the statue of the god was kept in a shrine (usually in wooden shrine and on a boat (ark). the priest would take out the statue and undress it, anoint it and light incense and so on and then replace it in the shrine on the boat and then retreat backwards from the inner sanctum. The height of this would be when the priest stood 'face to face' with the god. The high priests were called hm-neter which is usually translated as 'the god's servant' but actually more correctly would be 'the god's incarnation' (avatar). And so when he was standing face to face he was recognising the divinity of the god and reflecting it in himself. He was seeing reality face-to-face.

[stefos]

Bolded some areas that are easy to miss, which are possibly in relation to the holy spirit.

Turtle shell,

 

That's a good one man!

 

Right on,

Stefos

 

P.S. Here is something for everyone:

 

The Holy of Holies in the Temple of Soloman was a perfect cube.

 

If one unfolds the cube to 2 dimensions, it becomes a cross composed of 6 squares having a measurement of 20 by 20 which can be inferred as a "40" per se.

 

Numbers in the bible almost always point to spiritual gems...

Ex.

6 = short of Godhood.....number of man

7 = Divine completion/fulness

5 = Grace

4 = Entire World

40= testing, trial, temptation (Each particular instance in the Bible gives one the proper context)

 

Now, Superimpose a human body upon that cross and where the ark of the covenant is, the heart of the human would be also!

 

To push the point further:

Before & During the Temple of Solomon, the High Priest would have a Breastplate with 12 gems that had the 12 tribes of Israel on each one, set on a gold plate which was placed over the HIgh Priests heart area of his chest.

 

The Urim and Thummin were actually placed underneath the Breastplate, over the High Priests heart...the bible says.

 

Think about this........

Edited August 25, 2013 by stefos

[Apech]

@stefos ... 20X20 = 400

[ॐDominicusॐ]

In what sense is the Holy Spirit the physical world - I don't quite get that - can someone explain a bit more?

 

In my experience, the Spirit was a presence that entered into me through the top of the head, and instantly activated the Now, Timelessness, Transcendence, Bliss, Heart opening like a flower blooming, channels opening throughout the body with electric energy flowing through, being stripped of all personality, ego, thoughts, and leaving behind only naked Awareness.

 

By the way, everyone I was living with at the time, was aware of this Presence throughout the house and felt massive power from it, had to respect it, but also felt a peace about it. So it's not "all in my head."

 

This eventually led to access to the Heart which operates on Love, Empathy, Honesty, Oneness, selflessness, etc...

 

But eventually, the old subconscious comes back in fragments and pieces for purification.

 

Also, the Awareness was expanding and detaching from all dogma, religion, church, labels, family members, mind, etc.

 

I can say that, the Holy Spirit is definitely a Presence that is part of Grace, which makes "the path" very Very easy, if....this is a big IF, If you have time and resources for solitude and contemplation, then the Grace will take you all the way into the One.

 

 

In my case, I had to quite my job and had savings for a years worth of acclimating to this new found reality. Unfortunately, having to go back to work after that, I kind of had to re-structure or re-formulate an identity/personality where there wasn't one.

 

Which brings the next point: The whole concept of "Born Again." After the Spirit entered into me, it literally felt like I had died, and all that remained was a blank canvas of Awareness. I had to literally relearn how to function in society again

 

Also there are some denominations like some Baptists and Charismatics, where they refer to the ego death as, "Getting Slayed by the Spirit." because it literally feels like you've died and are reborn. All the identities of "I am name, I am this body, I am from earth", all I am's get destroyed.

 

But this is where the 40 days in the wilderness comes from. It's an example for everyone, to go on lengthy solitary retreats, where you face the Subconscious and detach from it.

[rex]

Three in one.

 

Excellent thread! Just cracked open a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and here are a few quotes on the Trinity:

 

233 Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names, for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.

 

244 The eternal origin of the Holy Spirit is revealed in his mission in time.The Spirit is sent to the apostles and to the Church both by the Father in the name of the Son, and by the Son in person, once he had returned to the Father.The sending of the person of the Spirit after Jesus' glorification reveals in its fullness the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

 

261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseperable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine misssions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ॐDominicusॐ]

The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Christhood, is something very similar to Buddahood. Only in Christianity, you get there by the help of Grace, God's energy, Holy Spirit Empowerment, etc.

 

So the Holy Trinity would Transform a person into a Christ, like Paul says, "Not I, but Christ in me." This is actually a direct experience. The Holy Spirit indwells you, kills the Ego, replaces it with Transcendence, Holy Detachment, Bliss, and eventually you end up in Oneness with the Father.

 

So it's like what's left is basically the Body is a shell that Embodies the Oneness, there is no more "you." and that "you" is replaced by The Spirit which operates based on the will of the One, which is all Selflessness, Love, Empathy, Sharing, No Labels, no divisions, etc.

 

Of course with that comes access to all sorts of experiences of the Mystical natures. There are also some Christian Saints that have bodies on display that have yet to go into decay. The Monks also talk about he body transforming and channels opening up, turning into Light bodies that are able to do various miraculous acts, as long as they are in accordance to the will of the One...... if that makes sense

[Jeff]

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Christhood, is something very similar to Buddahood. Only in Christianity, you get there by the help of Grace, God's energy, Holy Spirit Empowerment, etc.

...

 

So it's like what's left is basically the Body is a shell that Embodies the Oneness, there is no more "you." and that "you" is replaced by The Spirit which operates based on the will of the One, which is all Selflessness, Love, Empathy, Sharing, No Labels, no divisions, etc.

...

 

Hi Dominicus,

 

The concept of there being "no more you" or the individual view of existence ceasing is not the case in Christhood ( or Buddhahood). In Christhood, one more like a subset of God that it is of God. A "son of God" who realizes it and then becomes a co-creator in God.

 

The Gospel of Thomas describes as below...

 

108. Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

 

The separate "him" does not cease. The percieved obstructions are just cleared (surrendered).

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Seth Ananda]

Hi Dominicus,

 

The concept of there being "no more you" or the individual view of existence ceasing is not the case in Christhood

I dont think i can entirely agree with this... Some Christian mysticism is focused on becoming so aware of Christ/God that the self is entirely forgotten... Texts like the Cloud of unknowing, St Teresa and St John of the cross's works, Bernadette Roberts book 'the path to no self' and so on...

[rene]

The separate "him" does not cease. The percieved obstructions are just cleared (surrendered)....

 

... becoming so aware of Christ/God that the self is entirely forgotten...

 

As wonderful as it would be for those two approaches to come to the converging point, it might be no small stretch to seam them together on this. Living the way of Both (simultaneously self and no-self) allows one to rest in the quiet of no-self, while enjoying the communion still-self brings. I find no downside; your mileage may vary. (-:

Edited August 26, 2013 by rene

[Jeff]

I dont think i can entirely agree with this... Some Christian mysticism is focused on becoming so aware of Christ/God that the self is entirely forgotten... Texts like the Cloud of unknowing, St Teresa and St John of the cross's works, Bernadette Roberts book 'the path to no self' and so on...

Hi Seth,

 

Things like the "Cloud of unknowing" are important steps along the way, but not the realization of "Christhood". Unknowing is the state of clearing the "local mind" of obstructions (anger, fears, etc...). In Christian terms, it is the realization of the "soul". From there it goes on to expand to oneness with all things. Christhood is beyond that, realizing the true primordial nature of God.

[Jeff]

 

 

As wonderful as it would be for those two approaches to come to the converging point, it might be no small stretch to seam them together on this. Living the way of Both (simultaneously self and no-self) allows one to rest in the quiet of no-self, while enjoying the communion still-self brings. I find no downside; your mileage may vary. (-:

Hi Rene,

 

The two really do come together, but it is sort of in the description of the details. The unknowing (or dropping of Ego) is the letting go of all fears and "local mind" obstructions. One then reaches a state of "clarity of mind", from this point there are sort of two ways to go. One can just sort of hang in the bliss of clarity (stay on the mountaintop) or reenter the world to continue the process of also clearing "non-local" obstructions (also called "oneness"). A Christ (or Buddha) is one who continues on for the benefit of all sentient beings. Many other traditions just stop and hang on the mountaintop.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[rene]

... from this point there are sort of two ways to go. One can just sort of hang in the bliss of clarity (stay on the mountaintop) or reenter the world....

 

Jeff, hi, yes those were the 'two' I was referring to, the seeming either/or choice that happens after the convergence. Sorry my words were unclear.

 

My point was that it does not have to be an 'either/or' choice' between either hanging in bliss or reentering the world... but getting past either/or mindset is not an easy thing to do. (-:

 

warm regards

[Jeff]

Jeff, hi, yes those were the 'two' I was referring to, the seeming either/or choice that happens after the convergence. Sorry my words were unclear.

 

My point was that it does not have to be an 'either/or' choice' between either hanging in bliss or reentering the world... but getting past either/or mindset is not an easy thing to do. (-:

 

warm regards

 

Very true...

 

[ॐDominicusॐ]

The concept of there being "no more you" or the individual view of existence ceasing is not the case in Christhood

 

I disagree. Read Miester Eckhart, Teresa of Avila, Saint John of the Cross, Desert Fathers, Philokalia, Cloud of Unknowing Jesus saying, "I and the Father are One." and there's another verse where he is praying that all people can be "One", the way he and the Father are one Also, to this very day, many of the Eastern Orthodox monasteries Practice the Jesus prayer for the sake of dropping into the HEart and merging into Union with God, a process they call Theosis/Deification.

 

 

In Christhood, one more like a subset of God that it is of God. A "son of God" who realizes it and then becomes a co-creator in God.

Well, the "Oneness" aspect would still hold true. Someone who is self-realized, can still be considered a co-creator by being a physical aspect, or acting vessel on the physical plain, of the Oneness

 

108. Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

 

The separate "him" does not cease. The percieved obstructions are just cleared (surrendered).

 

I think he's just using the relative "separate" terminology for the sake of comprehension, cause how else would you reference that there is no you and you are Inherently already One, to a bunch of Jews who only know Judaism and 800-some-odd rules to follow to make sure g-o-d is a happy g-o-d.

 

If he was One with God, and someone becomes like him, they too will be One with God.

 

Of course there are various schools that say: there's only the One. I say it's: The One, not the One, both, and none simultaneously as a whole

[Apech]

As a slight aside I just watched most of a vid on Youtube by Dr, Richard Carrier on how Jesus was not a historical character. I haven't read any of his books but the video was so full of straw man arguments and false interpretations of ancient religion that I felt quite certain, quite quickly, that he is wrong.

 

One argument seems to be that Christ embodies many features which can be found in earlier mystery cults (Mithras, Osiris and so on) ... this is an old argument which you can see repeated all over the place (by which I mean all over the internet). This approach seems to ignore the idea that Christ was actually fulfilling the mythic possibilities in these ancient cults. So if you have a cult which talks about resurrection then Jesus was actually demonstrating that this is not just words but a real possibility.

 

(just thought I'd post this while I was thinking about it)

[Jeff]

Hi Dominicus,

 

No problem, we just disagree.

 

My perspective is that what you are describing is the interim step of realizing/integrating with the soul. (Sort of like "saint level"').

 

As, Jesus say in the Gospel of Thomas, my experience is that "we" are that which "appeared" in God's image. Children of God that when realized are more like a "full operating subset" in God.

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

Or, from the Secret Gospel of Mary...

 

1. These are sayings, spoken by Salome the Maiden in the name of St. Mary Magdalene, which women of wisdom have held in trust. Mary said, “If you know the Woman of Light, you will know your Mother and be reborn of the Mother Spirit as a child of light. Because the light is bornless, you will have eternal life.”

[ॐDominicusॐ]

Hi Dominicus,

 

No problem, we just disagree.

Yes of course, all in Love and friendly discussion.

 

As, Jesus say in the Gospel of Thomas, my experience is that "we" are that which "appeared" in God's image. Children of God that when realized are more like a "full operating subset" in God.

In my case, and in cases of may of the Monks in Monasteries, as the Subconscious is being cleansed, eventually memories of me pre-existed as Awareness/Soul/Bodiless/Genderless type clarity and Being, prior to being born in a Body and being programmed with Ego. "In the Image of God" to me then, is that we are all in a sense, inherently, subunits of Consciousness, kind of like drops of water that emerged from the Ocean as Evaporation, formed clouds, and now as rain drops, experience separation and individuality, only to eventually return to the Ocean, of which the access is available within.

 

As a full operating "subset"....yeah I agree.....but then there's a question of that being just a sort of Illusion relative to the Oneness.

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Here's the thing. I still see Christ using parables and these kinds of examples to simplify things to a very dumbed-down population. To a people who have no clue about "nonduality, natural state, koans, etc." He has to speak, "their language" for them to comprehend. I would a bet a million dollars that had Jesus visited Tibet, or India, he would speaking using a different set of examples

 

1. These are sayings, spoken by Salome the Maiden in the name of St. Mary Magdalene, which women of wisdom have held in trust. Mary said, “If you know the Woman of Light, you will know your Mother and be reborn of the Mother Spirit as a child of light. Because the light is bornless, you will have eternal life.”

That's the light of consciousness, illumination, etc. Many cross-cultural religions/paths discuss this phenomenon, which gives it more of a Universality.

 

Good talks!!! Highly stimulating!!!!

[Jeff]

 

...

 

In my case, and in cases of may of the Monks in Monasteries, as the Subconscious is being cleansed, eventually memories of me pre-existed as Awareness/Soul/Bodiless/Genderless type clarity and Being, prior to being born in a Body and being programmed with Ego. "In the Image of God" to me then, is that we are all in a sense, inherently, subunits of Consciousness, kind of like drops of water that emerged from the Ocean as Evaporation, formed clouds, and now as rain drops, experience separation and individuality, only to eventually return to the Ocean, of which the access is available within.

...

 

Good talks!!! Highly stimulating!!!!

 

I also enjoy the discussion...

 

And I would agree that "ceasing" concept is common to many modern day traditions that think in terms of consciousness.

 

But, in some traditions it is realized as "outer form", with the deeper and "inner form" very rarely ever being realized.

 

The difference in the sort of levels that I described is found is described also described here in the Secret Gospel of Mary...

 

12. Disciples of Mary said to her, “We are going on a pilgrimage to the holy land so we might see where you and the Lord lived.” Mary said to them, “The holy land is wherever a child of Light goes, and it is where the child of Light abides. The holy land is where the Anointed and the soul are joined, it is the bridal chamber.”

 

In the spiritual advancement process, one first drops the "ego" (fears & issues) where one realizes the "clarity of mind". Many mistake this for enlightenment (God) and stop here. But after that has stabilized, one begins to notice the "light of God". This is the beginning of "oneness" or the realization of the soul. In other traditions, it is also know as beginning the "completion stage" or building the light body. The light body is the description of the deeper integration and connection to all existence/consciousness. Or, where one realizes that the inside and outside are the same. The anointed is a fully realized Christ/Buddha who is beyond "consciousness". An highly evolved soul begins to be able to perceive beyond consciousness and ultimately can "merge" with an anointed, and thus themselves begin to realize the "fabric" of consciousness.

 

The Lankavatara Sutra describes the stopping and getting "stuck" in the following words...

 

The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.

 

Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.

But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation.

 

p.s. Sorry about slipping again Apech... But, needed the clearer Buddhist words.

[Apech]

...

 

p.s. Sorry about slipping again Apech... But, needed the clearer Buddhist words.

 

Naughty!

[stefos]

@stefos ... 20X20 = 400

Hey man,

 

It goes like this:

 

Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament has a gematric value of 888.

 

The Beasts number is 666

 

Damascus's gematric value is 444

 

I'm not talking numerology....I'm talking gematria......Completely different actually!

 

Stefos

[stefos]

As a slight aside I just watched most of a vid on Youtube by Dr, Richard Carrier on how Jesus was not a historical character. I haven't read any of his books but the video was so full of straw man arguments and false interpretations of ancient religion that I felt quite certain, quite quickly, that he is wrong.

 

One argument seems to be that Christ embodies many features which can be found in earlier mystery cults (Mithras, Osiris and so on) ... this is an old argument which you can see repeated all over the place (by which I mean all over the internet). This approach seems to ignore the idea that Christ was actually fulfilling the mythic possibilities in these ancient cults. So if you have a cult which talks about resurrection then Jesus was actually demonstrating that this is not just words but a real possibility.

 

Look man:

 

If you read "The Two Babylons" you will come to an IMMEDIATE understanding between modern Catholicism being an amalgamation of Pagan concepts & Biblical Christianity.....The 2 are not the same.

 

Also, When you look at the "mystery cults," most of the happened AFTER Jesus showed up, not before.

 

Now, In Genesis, a primeval promise was made about the serpent killing a man by biting him in the heel....

This is found in world myth over & over with modifications: Thor & the Midgard serpent, Achilles tendon, Osiris & Thoth, etc.

 

My understanding and point is that when something is repeated over & over again in one, two, three cultures....It's probably true at a particular point.

 

Ex. The Great Flood:

EVERY ancient cultures roots mentions a flood & some mention 8 people surviving it too just like Genesis!

Native American nations mention a canoe with 8 people.........No, Christians & Jews didn't tell them about it!

 

Giants living with men:

Ancient culture spoke about giants as well: Greek, Norse, Indian, Mesopotamian myths.

 

Genesis states that "The Nephilim were on the earth both before AND after the flood!"

 

So these events would be easily transmitted orally.

 

See?

Stefos

[Apech]

Look man:

 

If you read "The Two Babylons" you will come to an IMMEDIATE understanding between modern Catholicism being an amalgamation of Pagan concepts & Biblical Christianity.....The 2 are not the same.

 

Also, When you look at the "mystery cults," most of the happened AFTER Jesus showed up, not before.

 

Now, In Genesis, a primeval promise was made about the serpent killing a man by biting him in the heel....

This is found in world myth over & over with modifications: Thor & the Midgard serpent, Achilles tendon, Osiris & Thoth, etc.

 

My understanding and point is that when something is repeated over & over again in one, two, three cultures....It's probably true at a particular point.

 

Ex. The Great Flood:

EVERY ancient cultures roots mentions a flood & some mention 8 people surviving it too just like Genesis!

Native American nations mention a canoe with 8 people.........No, Christians & Jews didn't tell them about it!

 

Giants living with men:

Ancient culture spoke about giants as well: Greek, Norse, Indian, Mesopotamian myths.

 

Genesis states that "The Nephilim were on the earth both before AND after the flood!"

 

So these events would be easily transmitted orally.

 

See?

Stefos

 

I was talking about Richard Carriers ideas not mine ... if you want to put him right he has a website and a blog I believe.

[stefos]

I was talking about Richard Carriers ideas not mine ... if you want to put him right he has a website and a blog I believe.

 

Please forgive me....I was NOT slamming you sir.

 

I was only explaining some things that I've discovered and to share on the thread.

 

That's all.....No insults meant to you!

 

Stefos

[RiverSnake]

Anyone ever personally "work" with the Being/Entity Jesus?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited September 1, 2013 by OldChi