Christian Mysticism

[3bob]

Well without three there is no creation taking place, the "law of three" (and law of seven) mentioned in 4th way materials is another term for same.

[Jeff]

Well without three there is no creation taking place, the "law of three" (and law of seven) mentioned in 4th way materials is another term for same.

 

What is the law of seven and the 4th way materials? Do they relate to Jesus's teachings or Christian Mysticism?

[Apech]

What is the law of seven and the 4th way materials? Do they relate to Jesus's teachings or Christian Mysticism?

 

This si Gurdieff I believe.

[Jeff]

This si Gurdieff I believe.

 

Do you think his stuff is similar to gnostic Christianity or closer to other traditions?

[Apech]

Do you think his stuff is similar to gnostic Christianity or closer to other traditions?

 

No idea not interested really. What do you think?

[Jeff]

No idea not interested really. What do you think?

 

I don't have any experience with Gurdieff or his concepts.

 

(That is why I asked. )

[3bob]

From "fragments of an unknown teaching" or "In Search of the Miraculous", by P.D. Ouspensky, thus not Mr. G. per-se being that he to was a messenger. Use caution with all the stuff that has spun off of the "4th way" with some of it being quite dubious or worse as is the case with many such materials that often get caught up in unfortunate personality and ego dramas. - But the "law of three" and "the law of seven" are of the best explanations I've come across -

Edited September 16, 2013 by 3bob

[Jeff]

... But the "law of three" and "the law of seven" are of the best explanations I've come across -

Best explanations of what? And do they relate to any of Jesus's words?

[Apech]

Is there any chance we could start a separate thread on Gurdieff/Ouspensky ?

[3bob]

They relate to a very large amount of material! You'll have to decide for yourself about their value to you, I'm not going into any further thread wise.

[Apech]

Hi 3bob,

 

I would agree that gnostic Christianity (and specifically what I have been saying) is not a Brahman style description. If anything, it is much closer to Buddhism with Jesus being the equivalent of a Buddha. He is "one with God", yet he is a "son/child of God". Jesus (and he teachings) are about us becoming "one in Christ".

 

Regarding your comments on nonduality, are you using the Buddhist meaning of the word or the "oneness" meaning of the word? In a light transmission, the being "giving it" operates from a level of oneness with all beings, but from the perception of the "receiver", they are obviously operating at a level of duality.

 

Finally, I.completely agree that what a "soul to do" is that everyone should "go inside" and find out the truth for themselves.

 

In Christian Mysticism how do we deal with (or perhaps how do we express) the distinction between 'oneness with all beings' and the not-twoness of the Father and the Son. It is the latter to me that is the equivalent (breaking my own rules here) of the inseparability of Emptiness and Luminosity in Buddhist thinking.

[Seth Ananda]

Hmm to me I stick with the teachings {like Kashmir Shaivism} that describe divinity as having an Active side, and a Passive side.

 

And neither side can be separated. Nonduality alone {the passive side} can do nothing. One is One is One... No transmissions, no discourse, no awareness of other, no movement, nothing...

 

Fortunately though that is not the whole story. There is divine activity, motion, discourse, people who can tell us about and transmit the experience of the One, and all the other amazing or less amazing things that also 'seem' to happen within the One...

[3bob]

Apech, I can't make that correlation... or I'm not going to try since doing so is part of the point I'm trying bring out - namely that these different paths may have some common ground but they can't really be rolled into one. (although if one says up front that they are trying to roll them into one and name it so (such as: The New Christian/Buddhist mixture Church) without taking the names and texts of established traditions as their own then that is different to me compared to so much of the dubious co-opting of various traditions that is taking place.

[h.uriahr]

Jesus does say that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. The Holy Ghost would be the third addition.

No different than Ice Water Steam. All the same yet different physical properties.

 

I'll try to dig out verses that speak on the Trinity. The WORD trinity is never used but then again the Bible never refers to itself as the Bible either. The concept is there. I have to get up early so I'm retiring for the night but I will snag some scripture when I can.

 

Blessings

[stefos]

Hi everyone,

 

Non-duality is one thing..............Atheism vs. Theism another.

 

-In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen which is the non-dual essence of each one of us, is considered as non-Buddhist by different sects in Tibetan Buddhism!

 

Mahamudra or the non-dual state found in non Bonpo/Nyingma schools, in Tibetan Buddhist circles, is not considered "non-Buddhist."

 

-What the Buddha taught, or is perpetrated as having taught in the Pali texts, is a state beyond the conditioned consciousness or the state of unconditioned consciousness.......This sounds identical with Advaita Vedanta any way you slice it.

 

So now to speak about Christianity and it's mystical bent, which was IN Christianity from the beginning anyway:

 

The New Testament records Jesus as saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in me."

The Holy Spirit is described as the Paraclete or in Greek= "one who stands aside/with another"

The Holy Spirit is God, not an angel or deva or a Will O' the Wisp thing.

 

Paul said "God's Spirit has become one with your spirit making you children of God."

 

So, that's our bible and not Stefos's bent about the bible.....Read it for yourselves.......I rest my case.

 

God bless you,

Stefos

[Apech]

Apech, I can't make that correlation... or I'm not going to try since doing so is part of the point I'm trying bring out - namely that these different paths may have some common ground but they can't really be rolled into one. (although if one says up front that they are trying to roll them into one and name it so (such as: The New Christian/Buddhist mixture Church) without taking the names and texts of established traditions as their own then that is different to me compared to so much of the dubious co-opting of various traditions that is taking place.

 

 

I agree with you - although if we are careful comparisons can be made.

 

Hi everyone,

 

Non-duality is one thing..............Atheism vs. Theism another.

 

-In Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen which is the non-dual essence of each one of us, is considered as non-Buddhist by different sects in Tibetan Buddhism!

 

Mahamudra or the non-dual state found in non Bonpo/Nyingma schools, in Tibetan Buddhist circles, is not considered "non-Buddhist."

 

-What the Buddha taught, or is perpetrated as having taught in the Pali texts, is a state beyond the conditioned consciousness or the state of unconditioned consciousness.......This sounds identical with Advaita Vedanta any way you slice it.

We are not discussing these things so I am not going to reply - except I don't agree with some of what you say here - but please take it to the Buddhist/Vedanta sub fora.

So now to speak about Christianity and it's mystical bent, which was IN Christianity from the beginning anyway:

 

The New Testament records Jesus as saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in me."

The Holy Spirit is described as the Paraclete or in Greek= "one who stands aside/with another"

The Holy Spirit is God, not an angel or deva or a Will O' the Wisp thing.

 

Paul said "God's Spirit has become one with your spirit making you children of God."

 

So, that's our bible and not Stefos's bent about the bible.....Read it for yourselves.......I rest my case.

 

God bless you,

Stefos

Yes paraclete sometimes translated as 'comforter'.

[3bob]

"I agree with you - although if we are careful comparisons can be made." by Apech

 

Fair enough, and I'd be interested in hearing how far you and other people think such comparing should go?

(something I'm not sure about myself)

[Apech]

"I agree with you - although if we are careful comparisons can be made." by Apech

 

Fair enough, and I'd be interested in hearing how far you and other people think such comparing should go?

(something I'm not sure about myself)

 

 

 

Comparing is useful because otherwise you might fall into the idea that the different traditions are talking about completely different things. For instance you might think that Christianity leads to a Christian heaven, or Buddhism to a Buddhist Nirvana or perhaps that the Dao is specifically Chinese. In other words you might think that the system of thought defines or determines the goal. But the systems while being internally self consistent are actually formally different. For instance the western four elements compared to Chinese five. This can get confusing if you get the correspondences slightly wrong. If you are involved in any energy work/cultivation then it can be disastrous. When you get to the 'beings' involved, like Bodhisattvas or Jesus for instance then I feel that you must deal with them as different persons - because they are - even if they embody eternal truths the expression is different.

 

Having said all this I still think its useful to study different ways - it makes you more flexible and open - but in the end you have to go with that which draws you most and to which you have the most connection.

[3bob]

"Having said all this I still think its useful to study different ways - it makes you more flexible and open - but in the end you have to go with that which draws you most and to which you have the most connection". by Apech

 

Thanks for the feedback, I argee 100% with your last sentence... not so much with the second sentence.

[Jeff]

Apech,

 

Any interest in a Gospel of Thomas discussion as a continuation?

 

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

[Apech]

Apech,

 

Any interest in a Gospel of Thomas discussion as a continuation?

 

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

 

 

Yes we need a continuation ... I wasn't sure which direction ... I think Gospel of Thomas is a good idea.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Apech

[h.uriahr]

The Gnostic Books are cool and everything but what is presented as the Holy Word of God aka The Holy Bible is FULL of goodies...if you have the eyes to see them.

 

Just the other day as I was reading the Word, I realized that I what'd stopped reading and He had started reading to me.

 

I need to read this thread lol because I jumped in without looking first.

[Apech]

Here's a resource for the Gospel of Thomas http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm and it doesn't say copyright for the translation but 'available to the net' - so I guess its all right for us to copy.

 

Everybody happy with this for the basis for another thread?

[Jetsun]

 

 

Yes we need a continuation ... I wasn't sure which direction ... I think Gospel of Thomas is a good idea.

The Gospel of Thomas is a fantastic gospel, certainly a piece of writing worth examining.

[chegg]

I like this mystic...found it to be interesting. I think he passed away in the 90's. Hope it is relevant

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2013 by chegg