Jeff Posted August 22, 2013 The first John referred to is John the Baptist and not the Apostle John. I still feel you are mixing the Logos and the Holy Spirit and prefer the Holy Spirit as Shakhinah of Seth (I think) But maybe its a mute point since they are three in one anyway. Hi Apech, How are you describing the word Logos? Wikipedia gives the following... Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (ca. 20 BC–AD 50) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[6] The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[7] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnate Logos. Is not the Holy Spirit... the divine, through which all things are made? Best, Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted August 22, 2013 Insomnia ... so just wanted to post this: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.[5] So a great wind and tongues of flame ... this is the Holy Spirit ... surely. What seems to be an important part of that verse is how they started speaking fluently in languages they hadn't previously studied... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 22, 2013 Also, Psalms 33-6 specifically says... By the word of the Lord (Logos) were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. Also, the first words of creation in Genesis match John pretty directly, describing that the Spirit of God was with God when there was only void... 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 22, 2013 What seems to be an important part of that verse is how they started speaking fluently in languages they hadn't previously studied... I would definitely agree that "So a great wind and tongues of flame" is describing the power of the Holy Spirit. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Hi Apech, How are you describing the word Logos? Wikipedia gives the following... Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (ca. 20 BC–AD 50) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[6] The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[7] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnate Logos. Is not the Holy Spirit... the divine, through which all things are made? Best, Jeff Are you saying Logos = Holy Spirit? Edited August 22, 2013 by Apech Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 23, 2013 Are you saying Logos = Holy Spirit? Yes. God is primordial and beyond word and form. The Holy Spirit is God in creation/existence. God as word (Logos), thought, energy or any form. Christ is the "word made flesh". Or, God in existence, "realized" in flesh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 23, 2013 3bob - right. My question should have been more clear. Thanks! No biggy Rene, and such (along with some other major points) might make for a good topic in another string in this sub-forum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 23, 2013 Yes. God is primordial and beyond word and form. The Holy Spirit is God in creation/existence. God as word (Logos), thought, energy or any form. Christ is the "word made flesh". Or, God in existence, "realized" in flesh. Only very slight nuance of difference to that. God (as absolute) is primordial and ineffeable. Trinity - God the Father .... creative power, God the Son ... Logos, form and energy, God the Holy Spirit ...activity - hence power, form, function. Three in one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 23, 2013 Only very slight nuance of difference to that. God (as absolute) is primordial and ineffeable. Trinity - God the Father .... creative power, God the Son ... Logos, form and energy, God the Holy Spirit ...activity - hence power, form, function. Three in one. Hi Apech, I would agree that your perceptive is more similar to the platonic and also the institutional Christian view. But, you have to remember that the concept of the Trinity in the early church did not even exist at the time of the writing of the gospels. The first of the early church fathers to use it was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century. And he defined the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia). The first real use of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and used it as a defense against aspects of the early church that said that Jesus was a human prophet and not "God". The Christian tradition did not declare Jesus God until Constantinople's council of Nicea in the 3rd century. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 23, 2013 Hi Apech, I would agree that your perceptive is more similar to the platonic and also the institutional Christian view. But, you have to remember that the concept of the Trinity in the early church did not even exist at the time of the writing of the gospels. The first of the early church fathers to use it was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century. And he defined the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia). The first real use of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early 3rd century by Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and used it as a defense against aspects of the early church that said that Jesus was a human prophet and not "God". The Christian tradition did not declare Jesus God until Constantinople's council of Nicea in the 3rd century. OK I'm not a fundamentalist and if my view is like the Platonic and 'institutional' view then so be it. I regard the Christian mystical tradition as the the whole story, through the medieval philosophers to now. So I am not overly concerned with when in history ideas were first mentioned. For instance we may get onto Christian Kabbalah and Grail Legends (again) yet and I count them all in. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 23, 2013 OK I'm not a fundamentalist and if my view is like the Platonic and 'institutional' view then so be it. I regard the Christian mystical tradition as the the whole story, through the medieval philosophers to now. So I am not overly concerned with when in history ideas were first mentioned. For instance we may get onto Christian Kabbalah and Grail Legends (again) yet and I count them all in. Sorry if I implied that you were a fundamentalist, I definitely did not mean to do that. My point was really in relationship to the concept of Christian Trinity in general. I believe that it was a much later concept and has been "read into" the ongoing interpretations of the bible. I think that there is actually more support for Theophilus of Antioch's position regarding Sophia (Wisdom). The best description of Sophia can be found in Proverbs... proverbs 8:22-31 22 The Lord created me at the beginning* of his work,* the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,* or the world’s first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;* and I was daily his* delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted August 23, 2013 Only very slight nuance of difference to that. God (as absolute) is primordial and ineffeable. Trinity - God the Father .... creative power, God the Son ... Logos, form and energy, God the Holy Spirit ...activity - hence power, form, function. Three in one. A salient & subtle point is being missed: The "is-ness or Am-ness" of God always & everywhere. What do I mean? This: God is..............God is motion in rest.......Love reposing in Love......Whether Active or Passive, the "is-ness" abides. Boehme's Aurora speaks of this. We tend to think of "rest" as cessation of physical labor or Love as an emotion. Rest is relying upon God who IS..........Love is God manifested in gross manifestation & as inner qualities/states. "I swore in my wrath: They will not enter my rest" Hebrews "Therefore, there remains a rest for the people of God" Hebrews Biblical Christianity is spirit & spirit intermingling: God & man and then on a continual "personal" and subsequent "corporate" level....Not the hierarchies seen today. As Paul is recorded as saying "God does not dwell in temples made with human hands nor does he have need of human hands to serve him.." Book of Acts.............Sure changes one's perspective about "Modern Christiantiy" now doesn't it. Biblical Christianity is not denominational Christianity and is actually the antithesis of it. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) Sorry if I implied that you were a fundamentalist, I definitely did not mean to do that. My point was really in relationship to the concept of Christian Trinity in general. I believe that it was a much later concept and has been "read into" the ongoing interpretations of the bible. <...> No I wasn't suggesting you implied that I was simply stating a fact ... that I am not a fundamentalist in that I don't think that a) there is only one correct version of things and b )that by going back in time to the 'original' version you get any closer to the truth than you do by taking in the whole history of thought from then till now. It is possible that the way in which the Logos and the Holy Spirit are understood has evolved over time and that the way it is expressed has changed. This is not to say the Logos itself has changed but only the way in which it is conceptualised by thinkers. I just see it as all 'in the plan' from alpha to omega and all that matters is consistency within each formulation. [as a short aside I think the same about the Buddhist path and am not a fan of back to Pali thinkers] Traditions are living things and all the participants are included. Same with this thread ... we are not after all (I hope) interested in dogma. Edited August 23, 2013 by Apech 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seth Ananda Posted August 24, 2013 Seth, I find the above very interesting. Could you perhaps elaborate on your experiences in this area? My 2 cents, Peace Hmm I am not sure what else to say. The Heart is inherently relational, and while I have found Non Dual paths very blissfull and also very mentally satisfying {from both the incredible peace, and with the logical reason behind them} my heart never felt satisfied... But in Theurgy style paths, some aspects of Shamanism, Christian Mysticism and so on, the heart itself enters into deep communion and relationship with some exalted other, which totally uplifts, heals and transforms the heart, and via the heart, the Soul... For me personally it feels 'too good to be true' or so beyond my wildest expectations I cant figure out how I got so lucky... Its helping me appreciate why some Christians go so batshit "Horay Jesus" that they just want to stand around holding signs and trying to convert others all day long. When my heart is in communion with a true spiritual being, with all its incredible Goodness, grace, purity and holiness then it seems almost intolerable that others should not get to have that experience as well... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted August 24, 2013 The Holy Ghost is but a reflection Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 24, 2013 The Holy Ghost is but a reflection a reflection of what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted August 24, 2013 That which is holy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seth Ananda Posted August 24, 2013 I wouldn't say the Holy Ghost is 'only' a reflection... Not when for many it represents the divine activity in us and in the world, a holy radiant consciousness that flows into the body and awakens subtle capacities, or gives advice and direction. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiverSnake Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Hmm I am not sure what else to say. The Heart is inherently relational, and while I have found Non Dual paths very blissfull and also very mentally satisfying {from both the incredible peace, and with the logical reason behind them} my heart never felt satisfied... But in Theurgy style paths, some aspects of Shamanism, Christian Mysticism and so on, the heart itself enters into deep communion and relationship with some exalted other, which totally uplifts, heals and transforms the heart, and via the heart, the Soul... For me personally it feels 'too good to be true' or so beyond my wildest expectations I cant figure out how I got so lucky... Its helping me appreciate why some Christians go so batshit "Horay Jesus" that they just want to stand around holding signs and trying to convert others all day long. When my heart is in communion with a true spiritual being, with all its incredible Goodness, grace, purity and holiness then it seems almost intolerable that others should not get to have that experience as well... Thanks for sharing Seth. One of my favorite bible quotes: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love" My 2 cents, Peace Edited August 24, 2013 by OldChi 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted August 24, 2013 When my heart is in communion with a true spiritual being, with all its incredible Goodness, grace, purity and holiness then it seems almost intolerable that others should not get to have that experience as well... Very beautifully said. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 24, 2013 Thanks for sharing Seth. One of my favorite bible quotes: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love" My 2 cents, Peace Wonderful quote Dude! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted August 24, 2013 One of my favorite bible quotes: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love" My 2 cents, Peace Bolded some areas that are easy to miss, which are possibly in relation to the holy spirit. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 24, 2013 Bolded some areas that are easy to miss, which are possibly in relation to the holy spirit. Good reminder that whatever we say or understand on here is 'through a glass darkly' or 'poor reflection in a mirror' and incomplete. BTW seeing 'face to face' is another ancient expression which occurs in pagan religions too - I say this to affirm that Christianity is part of the western tradition and not just a stand alone or even a sub-Judaic path. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted August 24, 2013 I wouldn't say the Holy Ghost is 'only' a reflection... Not when for many it represents the divine activity in us and in the world, a holy radiant consciousness that flows into the body and awakens subtle capacities, or gives advice and direction. All out there, is but a reflection. Separate heaven and earth and then integrate them. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 24, 2013 All out there, is but a reflection. Separate heaven and earth and then integrate them. A sage is in the house. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
