The feminization of the Western male?

[freeform]

Hi Cat-

This reluctance to express opinions just doesn't ring true to me...The expressing of opinions seems pretty feminine in my experience.

 

Exchanging of oppinion in the masculine sense focus on the actual oppinion - in the feminine sense it's an exchange of energy and emotion - the actual content of the exchange matters very little (from my experience)

 

Ideas for men are part of this drive to make things permanant - ideas are permanent(ish) - For women it's just a way of exchanging emotional energy...

[三江源]

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Edited March 17, 2015 by 三江源

[Wayfarer64]

Hi Cat,

I thank you for the new word to me- termagant, the anti-christian demonic aspect has a wicked edge...

 

I've usually gone with harridan -which I feel needs the drunken adjective to make it depictive...

 

but back to topic-

 

I agree with you that all of these questions get a new meaning when speaking of any human who has evolved past the rigorous stereotypes we each deal with and evolve through. That is why comparissons are so very odious -they seldom actually have a meaningful thing to say by way of comparrison -its the individual that carries the responsibility of their own public face.

 

If many western men are more comfortible acting in a somewhat feminine manner while remaining hetro- as a sexual proclivity; it may be that they've been taught to repress their own masculinity so as not to upset mom or some other whom they needed to please while growing up. It is noticable... the phenominom is evident and obvious -particularly in urban areas...And with intellectuals too- for some reason when the cognitive aspects are developed to a high degree in both sexes many see them as neutralized (neutered) in thier sexual aspect.

[Taomeow]

Pietro,

 

if you want recipes, start a thread, I'll contribute. And no, I don't feel attacked, anymore than when I stub my toe chancing upon a brick in the dark alley. Nor do I feel like attacking, although a brief temptation was there... attacking not you, of course! -- but the demon of dumbing-down, heart-removing, penis-softening old-fashioned misogynistic machismo that possesses a few perfectly nice guys stuck in a loving embrace with him in a closet --

wherefrom I would liberate them by meticulously tearing the demon limb from twitching limb and leaving the cold demonic corpse behind in the dark abandoned closet where it belongs while letting the poor imprisoned guy out into the light -- if I had the time. Which alas I don't, so I'll have to leave it all at the recipes level, see you there!

[Lozen]

My experience is that the true feminine is a keeper of secrets, and has an instinct for sharing wisdom by being and emanating and by example, humour and glance. And touch. etc etc.

 

I believe this is a false dichotomy. One can share wisdom through example and also through words. Some of the best storytellers in many different traditions are women.

 

And historically, women have given counsel to the men. Sometimes in groups, sometimes individually. The men usually made the final decisions but the women were not afraid to give their perspective. Thinking of movies... in 300, the Queen was asked for counsel and was not afraid to give it. And in many ceremonies it is the men who would ask for help from the women. The women were not afraid to give it. They did not say "Um, I'm not really sure."

 

I think the whole "I dunno, I'm just a girl" thing is far from what being a woman is...and I don't think sharing ideas and thoughts is limited to men and unevolved women.

[三江源]

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Edited March 17, 2015 by 三江源

[Lozen]

So communication needs to be oblique to be feminine? That's news to me.

 

Being reticent to speak one's mind could have just as much to do with a lack of confidence or one's personal style of verbal expression as it does about gender.

 

If I were to categorize women as evolved or unevolved (which I'd rather not do), I'd rather base judgement on whether their words tear people apart or bring people together than on how many words they use or how oblique their communication is.

 

The false dichotomy is between communication subtly or overtly. I don't think women need to choose between one or the other.

[Wayfarer64]

In NYC there are very few of the Dunno types that are just not, well poorly-educated, and perhaps may just not know, rather than playing the "silly me" act. That society has little time to waste on such niceties. The sweet southern gal who wants her car door opened for her still exists but those sorts of good-manners are also going away.

Which isn't even the same sort of politness issue as the chair thing -showing how complex these things can get when we just start changing the rules on a weekly basis scene by scene and culture by culture.

 

I know there are several Ozies on this board and I have found all of these factors of class, education, along with masculine and feminine roles to be very pronounced as a cultural window. The differences in attitude between the very well educated and the less so -the ripper-mate-havea tinny-motocross-shela jumping-surf bums that hit Bali durring their school breaks and the very different sounding often English educated POHM wannabes anyway it is an illustration of these differences in attitude, there as well as in the States and elsewhere. We got our hicks and cowboys and snobs and all the rest too...

 

So, I'm starting to see this as being a class thing as well; where the better educated men may be more PC and feminine and the women more self-assured and assertive. It seems that education has done more to liberate women into fuller potentials but forced men to become sensitive to issues and weigh their responsive so as not to be quite so quick on the draw with their positions and assertions. This doesn't hold true in the classroom itself which is still pretty dog-eat dog and a place where many women still can feel intimidated...

 

The more i think about the ramifications the more complex it becomes and it is still changing all the time -so everyone is at a different vantagepoint to adjust to the struggle...

 

I quit here -

Edited May 14, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Cameron]

I am a fan of woman and think they are cool in many interesting ways!

 

*sips cappuccino*

[Wayfarer64]

I am a fan of woman and think they are cool in many interesting ways!

 

*sips cappuccino*

 

I heareded that. Ya must be a westerner pard. Ya chasin' fillies at this here caffee emporium...dang-

 

Watz that foamy muck yr drinkin' there pard -some sorta sassperilly?

I'm tellin ya and it ain't no lie-its mighty tuff bein' a westerner... these times is plum loco!

 

 

Imitating types is the classic ruse to cruise for the objects of our desires...We try to come across as that who we believe to be the best bait. Both genders (and any in between) do this. So some of this feminization may just be play-acting not an actual shift in inner values... Which may account for the high devorce rate in the west too. There is no truth in advertizing, just role-playing. Marriage becomes a taste of reality and the true colors are shown. Then we want our anima back to start a new hunting trip...The webs we weave etc...

[Lozen]

I guess I see the "don't ask me, I'm just a girl" thing as a distinct lack of confidence which is actually explained quite well in books like Reviving Ophelia (note that the book, written by a die-hard feminist, still makes the point that girls brought up in traditional religious families don't have the same issues with lack of confidence.) And although education can make women more assertive and confident, there are plenty of overly-PC and very aggressive women who are well-educated who have lost a part of themselves and think that being successful means acting less feminine.

 

This isn't to say that I'm opposed to education because it can really open doors for both men and women; I just think that popular culture (often exemplified in the university) can really confuse universal truths and make things more complicated than they need to be...

 

For me I see as distinctly feminine is not about pink and flowers, cooking or not cooking, speaking or not speaking but about being open and receptive.

[Cameron]

 

 

For me I see as distinctly feminine is not about pink and flowers, cooking or not cooking, speaking or not speaking but about being open and receptive.

 

 

One of my female teachers said in Satsang how she should have a bright neon sign abover her head that says "always open".

 

She doesn't need it. Just being in her presence changes the energy in the room and is pretty great. And I definetly appreciate the feminine quality of her awakeness.

[gendao]

Exchanging of oppinion in the masculine sense focus on the actual oppinion - in the feminine sense it's an exchange of energy and emotion - the actual content of the exchange matters very little (from my experience)

 

Ideas for men are part of this drive to make things permanant - ideas are permanent(ish) - For women it's just a way of exchanging emotional energy...

Right, well just take a look at big media. The most successful woman is Oprah - whose show revolves around emotional bonding. Meanwhile, her successful male "counterparts" involve a lot of intellectual conflict (shock jocks like Howard Stern and assorted wingnuts like Bill O'Reilly).

 

Of course, these are just generalizations and you do always have some "exceptions" like Ann Coulter or Dr. Phil...

 

As far as being under-opinionated...I think that may often have more to do with differing interests between the genders. Men and women tend to have different interests and are going to be under-opinionated about the ones of less interest. This site is a good example. Clearly, it is male-dominated and so your average woman out there is going to be more "I dunno" when asked about Taoism. But ask her about celebrity gossip and she might have far more opinions! In PU, these types of topics are known as "chick crack."

For me I see as distinctly feminine is not about pink and flowers, cooking or not cooking, speaking or not speaking but about being open and receptive.

True, but why have these particular things been associated with women? Again, evolution. Since women incubate the child, they have to screen out bad food. Hence, women tend to have better senses of smell and taste than men. They tend to be far pickier eaters, if anyone hasn't noticed. Well, this should theoretically also make them better cooks too - as well as able to enjoy fragrant flowers more. Not to mention they have smaller hands and greater fine manual dexterity. No surprise then that the recent texting champion was a 13-yo girl:

Point is, feminism looks down its upturned nose at these activities as "demeaning," but in reality they are simply logical extensions of natural feminine strong suits.

 

Seriously, so many young women today BRAG about how they can't cook!

 

Gee, when was the last time a guy BRAGGED about how he can't change a tire, or can't do ANYTHING, for that matter?

Edited May 14, 2007 by vortex

[Lozen]

Point is, feminism looks down its upturned nose at these activities as "demeaning," but in reality they are simply logical extensions of natural feminine strong suits.

 

Seriously, so many young women today BRAG about how they can't cook!

 

No I agree, I think it's ridiculous that women talk about not cooking, cleaning, being nurturing, etc. as if it's something to brag about.

 

Gee, when was the last time a guy BRAGGED about how he can't change a tire, or can't do ANYTHING, for that matter?

 

Then again I know a lot of men who brag about spending all day playing video games and getting wasted.

[Lozen]

P.S. I don't think being underopinionated has to do with subject matter. We see it in the school system. I think women need safer environments than men do to express themselves. Traditionally, it was men who would keep the environment safe but so many just don't anymore. And I do think it's a problem. I've read a ton of studies I can quote on women doing more housework than men, even when both work full-time, and I'm okay with that *IF* the man is doing his job instead of just acting like another child... see topic of thread.

[Pietro]

Clearly, it is male-dominated and so your average woman out there is going to be more "I dunno" when asked about Taoism. But ask her about celebrity gossip and she might have far more opinions! In PU, these types of topics are known as "chick crack."

 

Actually Taoism is full of chick crack.

[Ian]

My opinion:

 

There is an all-corrupting wave of "false yang" which has been surging through humanity for a few thousand years. It distorts men and women equally and there's no point at all at all to these discussions where we try to establish which gender should blame which and who needs to sort it out.

 

People attempt to correct the imbalance, but what have they got to go on? They try to be the opposite of false yang (arrogant, domineering, exploitative, explosive etc etc) and so end up being "false yin" (over-compliant unassertive, feminised in men, bimbos in women).

 

Then men who are fed up of false yin start trying to be cocky pick up artists. More false yang. Which "works" to an extent, but with women who are so full of false yang themselves that it's basically a type of homosexual relationship, even though the bodies are different.

 

It doesn't help. Problem is, getting a mental template of how you think you should be and then trying to impose it on your nature, is, wait for it, false yang. In a nutshell.

 

My advice: get patient. Stop trying to sort it out. Let a ltttle silence in and your nature, including its gender, will blossom in time.

[sean]

It doesn't help. Problem is, getting a mental template of how you think you should be and then trying to impose it on your nature, is, wait for it, false yang. In a nutshell.

 

My advice: get patient. Stop trying to sort it out. Let a ltttle silence in and your nature, including its gender, will blossom in time.

Awesome.

 

Sean

[gendao]

Actually Taoism is full of chick crack.

Ha really? Such as?

Then men who are fed up of false yin start trying to be cocky pick up artists. More false yang. Which "works" to an extent, but with women who are so full of false yang themselves that it's basically a type of homosexual relationship, even though the bodies are different.

So, we're all pseudo-homos with pseudo-yang now? Lol...man are things f'd up these days!

[Pietro]

It doesn't help. Problem is, getting a mental template of how you think you should be and then trying to impose it on your nature, is, wait for it, false yang. In a nutshell.

 

My advice: get patient. Stop trying to sort it out. Let a ltttle silence in and your nature, including its gender, will blossom in time.

So how would you catalog David Deida? Because he would really agree with you on how to proceed, and yet he is considered really high from the PUA world. We seem to have a shortcircuit here.

[Taomeow]

My opinion:

 

There is an all-corrupting wave of "false yang" which has been surging through humanity for a few thousand years.

 

Hear hear! 'tis the truth.

 

This is exactly why Laoists (and all "real," not pop, taoists are ideologically Laoists, Tao Te Ching being the ONLY taoist source of "ideological correctness" equally recognized and revered by ALL taoist schools and sects) --

this is exactly why they start out by recognizing the existence of this ancient imbalance already all-pervasive in the human "civilized" world, and focus on ways to correct it. "Know the male but keep the female." "I nourish at the Great Mother's breast" (not the Father In Heaven's barren nipple that nourishes Indo-European yang-skewed religions and ideologies). Our pop taoists are mostly Christians gone bad, but not so bad as to abandon the false-yang ideation they sucked in as infants with Father's imaginary "ideal," aka male, milk. Authentic taoism was, for millennia, the only ideology that had nothing bad to say about the woman and didn't discriminate against her either in ideation or in application. A taoist abbess who invented the martial art known today as Wing Chun or a taoist immortal female Sun Bu-er who invented dantien breathing are every bit as revered today by "real taoists" as they are ignored by "pop taoists" (who actually still haven't outgrown Father In Heaven's tit if you ask me...)

Edited May 14, 2007 by Taomeow

[gendao]

A taoist abbess who invented the martial art known today as Wing Chun or a taoist immortal female Sun Bu-er who invented dantien breathing are every bit as revered today by "real taoists" as they are ignored by "pop taoists" (who actually still haven't outgrown Father In Heaven's tit if you ask me...)

Hmm, I haven't read the TTC or HHC in years and need to re-read them anew with a gender context in mind...and will then report back with my interpretations.

 

Anyhow, slight correction here - Ng Mui was likely just a Qing-era cover story by Ming rebels who wanted to overthrow the Qing Manchurians:

Recent findings uncovered by historians and martial arts teachers feeding continuous streams of information and documentation to the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton, Ohio -- and verified through extensive travel by the Museum Curator and staff to substantiate sources and documentation -- reveal that Ng Mui played no role in the creation or development of Wing Chun Kung Fu, if she ever existed at all.

I would like to hear about this Sun Bu-er, though! Edited May 14, 2007 by vortex

[seadog]

All this back and forth is making me horny.

[Jonah]

Having let a lot of silence into my soul over the years, I can say my gender has indeed blossomed.

 

And what I find is that it is an animal.

 

An animal that drives me with wild passion to strongly slam my girlfriend up against the wall, and push deeply against her body. She may struggle, she may giggle, or moan. But that's all surface, for when I reach behind her and grab hold of her hair, pulling her head back and exposing her neck, she surrenders to me completely. I love this.

 

And so does she.

 

We eventually strip ourselves of our masks, our conventions, and our clothes, and become completely naked, both physically and psychologically, so that we may both express our truest selves to one another.

 

I am yang, and she is yin. It all makes sense in the bedroom, this dance of light and dark, hot and cold, power and yielding. When these two polarities combine, everything is created. (Including babies if we aren't careful.)

 

The question then becomes, how far do we take this primordial dance of polarities that works so well between the sexes and apply it to our everyday behavior?

Edited May 15, 2007 by Jonah

[Uncle Fester]

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Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak