My 3-Month Experiment with Testosterone Blockers

[i am]

And healthy, I'm sure. I'm sure they're all on the path to enlightenment, and the people you've quoted would approve of their lifestyles . What are we debating here? Lets define it. Because I don't look to college kids for cues on how to cultivate. Its cool that I guess they've clearly thrown off their Puritan brainwashing shackles, though.

 

If you really think that what the OP describes in the OP is good, healthy living, and that his desire to change those habits is only because of his brainwashing, then I have nothing to debate with you. That's not what I've been talking about.

 

It just seemed to me as though you came into this thread with your mind already made up that this was a guy with puritan guilt, and you were going to preach your argument against it no matter what the post really said. When in reality, this was a case of an actual unhealthy excess, which was hurting people around the OP and certainly not helping him.

 

Again, if we really have such different views on how to lead a spiritual life, there's not much left to debate on this topic.

Edited August 29, 2013 by i am

[i am]

I am,

 

Are you supporting the use of testosterone blockers?

 

Are you really telling me that?

 

Now that's just silly and childish; stick to the issues.

 

No, is the answer.

 

I'm supporting the choice to change an unhealthy lifestyle, and genuinely interested in what the effects of the blockers were. I don't support the use of any pharmaceutical to address an issue, except as a last resort.

 

 

[RongzomFan]

Now that's just silly and childish; stick to the issues. No, is the answer. I'm supporting the choice to change an unhealthy lifestyle, and genuinely interested in what the effects of the blockers were. I don't support the use of any pharmaceutical to address an issue, except as a last resort.

 

Stick to the issues?

 

Read thread title which includes the phrase "testosterone blockers"

[RongzomFan]

It just seemed to me as though you came into this thread with your mind already made up that this was a guy with puritan guilt,

 

I don't know about him, but you are definitely a puritan.

[ॐDominicusॐ]

This all seems totally normal to you? I'm sorry...

 

Funny you mention the straw man, as it seems to me that's exactly what you're doing here

"Normal" is relative to "culture, so what's the need to be sorry?

 

No straw man, just an interesting field report. Lust has always been Alien to me. 12 years of life with none of it, puberty, then boom I'm drunk, under the influence of it, and have to do "things" to take care of it.

 

Of everyone I've known, friend/family wise, as far as men go, I've had the highest lust levels of all, and lust has caused me various difficulties in relationships where I really wanted, in my heart, not to cheat.

 

Not to mention my Spiritual practice. If you've been drunk before, and done stupid things while drunk, that's how lust always was for me

 

Back on topic, though, and sorry if you addressed this already:

 

So other than clear headed and all that, I'd be interested to hear what the rest of life was like. We hear that it's the harnessing of sexual energy that you use to further your practice. I don't know how testosterone relates to sexual energy... But if you were doing any energy work, I wonder if it suffered much with testosterone blockers?

 

I've always figured that my mental state (somewhat unique among most people I know, but nothing special in this community) was due to low testosterone. But the times I've mentioned that, female friends of mine have commented that they would not assume that I have low t. So who knows. Maybe it's more my upbringing that gives me my attitude, and not hormone levels.

I never practiced harnessing. My practiced consisted of letting go, surrender, meditation, mindfulness, anapanasati, zazen, just observing the arising & passing away of lust, of course after a lengthy build up, just a fly landing on your arm is enough to, you know, etc.....

 

A decade full of insights has led me to believe my hunch was right all along; I am inherently not this body, or superimposing mind, or lusts or needs. Problem solved. The body and everything that comes with it, is also and arising and passing away.

 

I meant this post is field study of an experiment I did. Those 3 months with no lust, I felt like a child again, clear headed, focused, peaceful, artistic, nonjudgmental, could be friends with hot women without bringing sex into the picture, etc.

 

Lust, induced by testosterone, which itself is caused by a number of other reactions, causes all sorts of mental illusions, psychological defects, narcissism, psychopathy, alpha-male syndrome, unethical and immoral behaviour in business and society in the name of profit....it runs so deep, I don't think many people realize how big of an impact it has on the all singing all dancing crap of the world. It's the cause of wars, rapes, molestation, pillage, I can go on and on, very easily bringing in recent news articles as exmaples

 

But alas, in the tao bums board it'll probably be alwayson to come by and say I'm projecting this all, making it all for naught in the end. Touche

 

What have you say about molestation and rape then? Especially the one guy on Ohio who had all those girls kidnapped for over a decade in his bassment. You want to knwo what he said? He said he's not guilty because he's sick. Something comes over him (lust) and causes him to act a certain way, all morals and ethics out the window.

 

Lust is just as much a root of cause of terrible acts as is ego

[i am]

I don't know about him, but you are definitely a puritan.

 

Glad to see your true colors come out!

 

You can't debate a point, you can only quote others and give out what you think are insults. Funny. Well, I'm done with you.

[i am]

Dominicus, the first post of mine you quoted above with the "I'm sorry" and straw man stuff was directed at alwayson, not you.

 

What I understand of what you're saying, I pretty much agree with.

 

People who molest children ARE sick, and I'm not sure testosterone has anything to do with it. Not that you would have brought it up...but with all your lust I don't see that you were molesting children or raping...I mean no one makes a decision that molesting a child is a good idea. They somehow can't help themselves...and so the very slippery slope and difficult argument about what to do with sick people and what sort of "punishment" they deserve...I don't know how I feel about it but I know I don't want people like the walking the streets.

Edited August 30, 2013 by i am

[ॐDominicusॐ]

Dominicus, the first post of mine you quoted above with the "I'm sorry" and straw man stuff was directed at alwayson, not you.

 

What I understand of what you're saying, I pretty much agree with.

 

right on, sorry bout that, context is difficult to gauge online at times

 

People who molest children ARE sick, and I'm not sure testosterone has anything to do with it. Not that you would have brought it up...but with all your lust I don't see that you were molesting children or raping...I mean no one makes a decision that molesting a child is a good idea. They somehow can't help themselves...and so the very slippery slope and difficult argument about what to do with sick people and what sort of "punishment" they deserve...I don't know how I feel about it but I know I don't want people like the walking the streets.

I have not raped/molested, however I have had periods of being under the influence of Lust to the point where most of my morals/ethics went out the window and I found various ways to justify one night stands or even paying for sex. 2 things I usually would not have done in the event I was level headed.

 

For example, when there is clear level headedness, I usually have standards when it comes to women/relationships and like there to be some sort of emotion and bonding involved. Especially if she's spiritual and philosophical, that's like a million extra brownie points. But when lust is there, practically anything walking is good enough, that's why I used the term being no different than an "animal"

 

When I was 20, I had a chance to sleep with a well developed 15-16 year old, who looked/acted much older. I Knew her age, but the lust was so strong, I was at one point getting ready to take my chance. However, logic/reason/standards prevailed and the night was won. It was at that point I realized what molesters/rapists must go through. In them, Lust is so strong, that they drop all morals/ethics/standards and then anything goes regardless of age/consent.

 

You can see this in male teachers who sleep with female students. In many interviews, they say, "I don't know what came over me or what I was thinking, it all happened so fast."

 

Certain Spiritual Paths can lead to similar acts. When one says that there are no universal ethics/morals/standards/laws/cultures, because they are all illusions anyway, well you can see how that can turn out.

 

But to further stretch the point, since I believe these bodies to be forms that stem from evolution, and that science says we share 99% of dna with chimps, that's exactly what I feel the lust is, a form of arising that creates the need to procreate, a chimp/animal like need

 

As we evolve, I don't think we will keep the lower natures. Animalism along with ego creates a massive heap of global psychological issues that are the causes of all ills

[i am]

Agreed, but there's a difference between sleeping with someone much younger, or someone "illegal", and being attracted to small children.

 

One is more just general ethics, the other is seriously wrong. I can see testosterone causing you to sleep with a 16 year old. To "sleep with" a 6 year old takes an illness...that's not extreme lust. That's sick.

 

But yeah, I hear you. I finally started "thinking with the right head" on a reliable basis probably 5 years ago. I love it. If I want to get turned on and focus all my energy on sex, I can. But it's a decision. When there's some girl after me and I know she's NOT good for me, but hey, she's kinda sexy...I am in control, not my hormones. Saves me and everyone else a lot of grief. I can now go about my day with higher ideals in mind, not taking part in the "monkey dance" (from Meditations on Violence; great book) ie alpha male games, and make clear headed decisions.

 

So if I'm attracted to a girl, but also think we're compatible and would be good for each other, THEN I can act. I can still see situations where "casual" sex would be ok and healthy, even though she's not someone I want to date, but its a bit more rare.

Edited August 30, 2013 by i am

[RiverSnake]

But it's a decision. When there's some girl after me and I know she's NOT good for me, but hey, she's kinda sexy...I am in control, not my hormones. Saves me and everyone else a lot of grief. I can now go about my day with higher ideals in mind, not taking part in the "monkey dance" (from Meditations on Violence; great book) ie alpha male games, and make clear headed decisions.

 

So if I'm attracted to a girl, but also think we're compatible and would be good for each other, THEN I can act.

 

Consciously making decisions i think is the key. Its so hard to be conscious and self-aware when your young. Nature doesn't really want you to be aware, just procreate. I feel this is often why in many cultures for both Men and Women have there own "rights of passage" in which youngins go through certain culturally defined rituals to mark their growth and safely integrate themselves into the social structure.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[Tibetan_Ice]

Gee Alwaysoff, you have managed to desecrate the practice of using a consort and diminish it to the level of just 'sex'.

This not only shows a lack of understanding on your part, but you are further deceiving readers by suggesting that Buddhists are having 'sex' when they practice with a consort.

 

Consort practice does not include orgasm nor does it include loss of seminal fluid. It is not conventional sex by any means.

 

Some points: before even attempting practice with a consort, a practitioner must be able to take the inner heat, the yoga of inner heat, up the sushumna in order to melt the kundalini drops in the crown, and they must be able to do this by themselves. If they cannot do this on their own efforts, consort practice is useless and just a fraud or an excuse to have ordinary sex. The final goal of consort practice is to dissolve the winds into the heart, which is supposed to produce tremendous bliss and realization of emptiness.

 

As Lama Yeshe puts it:

A CONSORT According to Lama Tsongkhapa, meditators are qualified to practice with a consort when, through inner fire meditation, they have perfectly learned the three stages of entering, stabilizing, and absorbing the winds; and, through familiarity with this practice and the power of the absorption of the winds, they have developed complete control over the flow of kundalini and thus experienced simultaneously born bliss. In order to increase the experience of the four joys, the yogi or yogini can then practice with a consort.

 

The great yogi Je Pabongka, on the other hand, explains in his commentary on the completion stage of Chittamani Tara that the yogi or yogini can practice with a consort when the heart chakra opens and the kundalini flows. His view is that they should not practice with a consort until they have opened the tightness of the knots of the heart chakra. In other words, they are not qualified for the practice until the airs have not only absorbed in the central channel but begun to absorb at the heart chakra. To engage in the practice before this point is a mistaken action and a cause of rebirth in the lower realms.

 

Now, I would like to debate with Lama Tsongkhapa. Je Pabongka’s view is that a yogi or yogini is ready to practice with a consort only when the winds have absorbed in the heart chakra and opened it by releasing the knots there. Lama Tsongkhapa, however, says that they can practice with a consort when the entering, stabilizing, and absorbing of the winds becomes a habitual experience and they can control the flow of kundalini.

 

I am not quite clear myself about these two statements. It seems to me that it is still possible that the heart chakra will not be open even though the airs have entered, stabilized, and absorbed in the central channel, as Lama Tsongkhapa explains. In this case, how can the practitioner be qualified to practice with a consort? Even though the energy has entered, stabilized, and absorbed in the central channel, it is possible that the yogi or yogini still does not understand emptiness and thus is not ready to practice with a consort. Think about this point.

 

Why is a consort necessary? At this point, the airs have already entered the central channel, stabilized, and absorbed. The four elements have ceased and the yogi or yogini has seen all the visions. With the flowing of the kundalini energy, they have experienced the four joys, culminating in the experience of simultaneously born bliss, and with that bliss they have comprehended nonduality. In other words, they have gone beyond grasping. Since they have already experienced simultaneously born great blissful wisdom, why do they need to practice with a consort?

 

The point is that there are degrees of these experiences: degrees of air absorption, degrees of bliss, and degrees of realization of nonduality. Practice with a consort causes the airs to enter the central channel more strongly; and the more strongly the airs enter, the more strongly they will stabilize and absorb, and the more bliss will be generated. The purpose of practicing with a consort is to increase these experiences, and eventually to energize total absorption of the winds at the heart chakra, total bliss, and total realization of nonduality. Up to this point, the yogi or yogini has used a mental consort in meditation and has only begun to open the heart chakra. They need the help of a daka or dakini to totally open it. To energize the complete experience of great bliss, the male and female must help each other to bring the embracing energy into the central channel.

 

There is a lot of confusion about consort practice, so you should understand clearly what Buddhist tantra has to say about it. The completion stage experience of great bliss achieved with a consort is incredible. It is beyond expression, beyond all concepts, beyond words. Accepting a consort is the unsurpassed way to achieve enlightenment. In fact, having reached the point of being qualified to take a consort, a yogi or yogini will definitely become enlightened in that life; they will achieve Vajradharahood.

 

It is also explained that both the male and female practitioners should be qualified to practice and should be of equal good fortune and intelligence.1 When the male and female partners are equally qualified, they both experience the absorptions.

 

Je Pabongka also explains that the consort should be shown to you by your deity, your lama, or the dakinis. Of the four types of consorts, he considers the best to be the mantra-born consort, which means someone who has become qualified through their practice of tantra.

 

Once the yogi or yogini has experienced bliss with a consort, each time they meditate on emptiness, they recollect the experience exactly and enter directly into blissful samadhi. This is not like our experience of eating mozzarella cheese: we eat it once and like it, but then we need to eat it again to get the pleasure. Without actually eating it, we don’t get the satisfaction. However, for yogis and yoginis who have reached a certain level of development, it is enough for them to have the experience with a consort just once. Merely by remembering their previous experience with a relative consort, they will go effortlessly into deep samadhi and experience perfectly all the absorptions. Anyway, in the terminology of tantra, emptiness is the absolute consort, and finally that is enough.

 

Courtin, Robina; Yeshe, Lama Thubten; Cameron, Ailsa (2005-06-10). The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa (p. 167). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

You are doing nobody any favours here.

 

First of all, using a consort has its pitfalls. Remember Milarepa? Tibet's most famous saint? Well he flunked the consort test.

 

link: http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/articles/article/2291157/159374.htm

At one point Marpa said it was time for Milarepa to have a tantric consort, in order to test his realisation in life. In Tibetan tantrism, a consort is not a conventional romantic partner, but someone to practice an impersonal advanced yogic discipline with. As it turns out, Milarepa became attached to the lady in the natural way, which was undermining his practice, as it was considered in those days. Marpa, being clairvoyant, knew this was happening and summoned for Milarepa and his consort to come visit him. When they reached Marpa, he gave Milarepa his final test, saying that henceforth he would take the woman, leaving Milarepa’s head reeling and heart crushed. He did, however, see his mistaken attachment, and was sent out by Marpa for further practice to deepen his realisation. It was to take another fifteen years.

 

So, as we can see, the first danger is attachment, and we all know how easy it is to become attached to 'sex' and 'romantic' feelings. Even Milarepa could not control it!!

 

And then you demonstrate your lack of understanding by saying "Maybe sexual yoga died out in Hinduism, but its still a crucial part of Buddhism" http://thetaobums.com/topic/31403-my-3-month-experiment-with-testosterone-blockers/?p=472031

 

Well, what do you think kundalini yoga is? Kriya Yoga? Maybe you could explain how kundalini yoga, raja yoga or any hindu yoga which involves kundalini, the central channel, the sushumna is not sexual yoga.

 

And then, you mention that a Dzogchenpa is practicing Karmamudra. Why is that? Karmamudra is not pure Dzogchen. Do Dzogchenpas have to resort to kundalini/vajra practices?

 

To repeat: Dzogchen, the way of self-liberation, is a nongradual path. This means that its principle, the understanding of the reality of self-liberation, can be applied right from the start of the path. Dzogchen, “wholeness,” “completeness,” means that understanding what is, in any moment or situation, is liberating. In Dzogchen this “what is” is explained in terms of essence, nature, and energy.1 So whether one is a beginner or not, the outlook, the practice, and the way of taking the practice out into the world, are the same: to know and experience the essence-nature-energy of one’s situation. This is to maintain beginner’s mind. The essence of this beginner’s mind is emptiness, its nature is clarity, and its energy is unceasing nondual manifestation.

 

We can approach tantric yoga practices from the standpoint of the gradual path: first you do this, then you do that. In fact, it seems absolutely necessary, because there is no way to nongradually do practices such as vase breathing or advanced asanas such as the wheel and the peacock. This is true; one proceeds further and further into the yogic methods in stages. The key word here is “methods.” Relatively speaking, yoga works gradually on harmonizing the relationship between body, energy, and mind. Through movement and asanas, one controls breathing and thus motility; through control of motility, one can control the mind; through controlling the mind, one can in turn influence motility.

Padmasambhava (2011-07-20). Secret Teachings of Padmasambhava: Essential Instructions on Mastering the Energies of Life (pp. 77-78). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

This last quote clearly diferentiates between the nongradual path and the gradual path. Karmamudra is clearly not Dzogchen.

 

And in the famous words of the Dalai Lama:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Roach

 

The controversy centers around a Buddhist practice in which two practitioners use sexual intercourse as a means of strongly focusing the consciousness in order to strengthen the realization of emptiness. According to the Dalai Lama, "Yogis who have achieved a high level of the path and are fully qualified can engage in sexual activity, and a monastic with this ability can maintain all the precepts...Such a practitioner can make spiritual use not only of delicious meat and drink, but even of human excrement and urine. A yogi’s meditation transforms these into real ambrosia. For people like us, however, this is beyond our reach. As long as you cannot transform piss and shit, these other things should not be done!"

 

 

 

Dominicus, here is a bit from Saraswati about conquering the sacral chakra and getting kundalini to rise above it:

 

From "Kundalini Tantra" by Satyananda Saraswati:

The sexual crisis
I remember reading a book written by a wellknown swami who had difficulties
getting through swadhisthana. He wrote: "I was sitting all night and nothing but sex and
sensual thoughts came to my mind. And I dreamed of many women presenting
themselves in their naked form, and my whole body was becoming hot and cold, hot and
cold. Ultimately I got a headache, and at one point, I thought my heart would collapse.

 

"Throughout the crisis, my guru's face used to come like a glimpse. His face was
stern and expressionless, and that used to bring my temperature back to normal.
However, this confrontation I was having with a powerful side of my mind continued
until morning. At last, when morning came I breathed a sigh of relief. But then, when I
sat for meditation in the evening, I had mixed feelings. I had fear in my mind and
confidence as well.

 

"Day in and day out the mind played its tricks on me. Then one night Parvati came to
me. Parvati is the shakti of Lord Shiva, and she is the divine mother. I knew she was
Parvati, but because she looked so beautiful and she was wearing almost transparent
clothing, I began to desire her. Rather than remembering that she was the divine mother,
my mind was more aware of the form behind the transparent apparel.

 

"Like a flash of lightning my guru showed his face and I regained my senses and
prayed, 'Mother, withdraw your maya. I can't face these experiences. You are the giver of
liberation and you are the creator of illusion. You have the power to cast me back into the
cycle of birth and rebirth and you have the power to lift me from this quagmire of
ignorance.'

 

"As I prayed, tears rolled down my face and I felt a cool breeze passing through the
interior of my body. The whole panorama vanished and I understood that kundalini had
passed through swadhisthana and was now heading towards manipura."

 

Transforming the primal energy

When no sexual desires of any kind manifest in an aspirant any more, and when there
is no more personal attraction, that means kundalini has passed beyond swadhisthana
chakra. However, when dealing with the subject of sex, your understanding must be very
thorough. Although you may not be having any sexual awareness at the moment, that
doesn't mean your desires have been exterminated. They might be in a suppressed state.
There is an automatic process of suppression in the human constitution, and that is
inherent in our own mental being.

 

Hindu rishis have stated that sexual awareness and desires can manifest at any stage
of evolution. They are very acute and clearly expressed when one is in swadhisthana and
having continual fantasies, but sexual awareness never really dies because it is fueled by
the primal energy which is present all throughout. Sex is only an expression of that, and
therefore it can manifest at any stage, and one should never think that he has transcended
it. It is even present when one is in the highest state of consciousness. The only difference
is that in swadhisthana it is in a very disturbed state, whereas in the higher centers of
evolution it is in a seed form. After all, what is bhakti or devotion; what is union? They
are the sublimated pure form of sexual energy.

 

Energy at different levels is known by different names. At the highest level it is
called spiritual experience. On the emotional level it is known as love. On the physical
level it is known as sex, and at the lowest level it is known as avidya or ignorance. So
therefore, when you talk about sex, you must understand that it is only a particular
formation of energy. Just as curd, butter and cheese are different formations of the one
thing - milk, energy has different manifestations. Matter is the grossest manifestation of
energy; in the ultimate state, matter is energy. Therefore, energy and matter are
intraconvertible. A thought is an object and an object is a thought. This body is
consciousness and consciousness has become this body. In the same way that you
understand this, you have to reanalyze and redefine sexual awareness.

 

The rishis say that the same energy which flows through passion, when channelized,
manifests as devotion. Channelize this same energy again and it manifests as spiritual
experience. That is why spiritual aspirants love God in various manifestations. Some
picture him as a father, a mother, a child, a friend, husband or lover. In this way, they can
sublimate the form of their emotional energy and even transform the primal energy into a
divine experience.

 

So we have seen that consort practice is fraught with dangers of attachment, that one should first be accomplished at tummo, inner heat yoga/kundalini (which is no small feat), that vajra practices are a form of energy practice (not Dzogchen), and that Hindus have Raja Yoga/Kundalini Yoga which also brings kundalini into the central channel. We have also seen that practicing with a physical consort is not necessary (an imagined consort can be used) or, as in kundalini yoga, can be totally bypassed and viewed as shakti joining shiva. But in all cases, we are not talking about 'common sex', we are talking about spirituality with regards to energetics.

 

 

[RiverSnake]

I founds that quote by the Dali Lama quite interesting. Thanks for sharing TibetanIce. Do you have the whole excerpt of that article?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[skydog]

Always ons points are more on the other end of the extreme eg tantra, pua, a lot of normal people.

 

Lets face it most cultivators and people who practice retention are on the other end of the extreme.

 

Its going to sound bad, but always on does bring up valid points.

 

No I dont suggest sleeping with women, with partners etc etc, but there are many things you can argue about on a moral level.

 

When I was younger, I accidentally ended up being with women, who didnt tell me they had a boyfriend/husband until much later, even recently, they lie and tell me they dont, but I know they do, women want a boyfriend for sometimes completely different reasons than a sexual partner. Just like how I think in fact, Many women want a stable rich boyfriend that looks good to their social group, they might also want someone to sleep with who is "alpha male" whatever that means, if you think Im being twisted then I think your way too extreme, look at any woman who goes on clubbing holidays etc, it really is part of the nature, and yeh in the past, men and women had multiple partners. These days I dont really go out too much, and will make an effort not to try anything with a woman that does have a boyfriend, but if Im cool and hes a dork and shes saying she doesnt have a boyfriend, and Im not looking for a long term thing, Im not sure how bad the ethics of the situation is? Many men go to prostitutes/watch porn etc.

 

My post is purely for those who are looking at things in far too extreme of a light. And frankly Im probably repressed too, I went 155 days retaining and now 35 days so far, I dont go out too much recently, I can understand how some people can get too "lust is bad" but there too extremes IMO.

 

Also these days people have condoms in the past, people would have babies straight away, I think there is a difference there.

[RongzomFan]

Some points: before even attempting practice with a consort,

 

Before even attempting to practice with a consort, both people must have the proper empowerments and instructions.

 

You are doing nobody any favours here.

 

First of all, using a consort has its pitfalls. Remember Milarepa? Tibet's most famous saint? Well he flunked the consort test.

 

link: http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/articles/article/2291157/159374.htm

 

 

So, as we can see, the first danger is attachment, and we all know how easy it is to become attached to 'sex' and 'romantic' feelings. Even Milarepa could not control it!!

 

I really have no idea what you are talking about. Milarepa's main practice was definitely Chakrasamvara and karmamudra.

 

And then, you mention that a Dzogchenpa is practicing Karmamudra. Why is that? Karmamudra is not pure Dzogchen. Do Dzogchenpas have to resort to kundalini/vajra practices?

 

Pretty much every great Dzogchenpa had consorts and practiced karmamudra. You are really showing your ignorance here.

 

Here is a story of KDL being told where to find his consort by a Dharma protector.

 

http://www.zangdokpalri.org/bio_excerpt2.pdf

[RongzomFan]

BTW, Gelugpa material is meaningless to me.

[RongzomFan]

Always ons points are more on the other end of the extreme eg tantra, pua, a lot of normal people.

 

I'm more in line with normal society.

 

People cheat, break up, remarry etc. all the time.

 

The rest of you are living in some fantasy world.

[RongzomFan]

When I was younger, I accidentally ended up being with women, who didnt tell me they had a boyfriend/husband until much later, even recently, they lie and tell me they dont, but I know they do

 

Many women want a stable rich boyfriend that looks good to their social group, they might also want someone to sleep with who is "alpha male" whatever that means, if you think Im being twisted then I think your way too extreme, look at any woman who goes on clubbing holidays etc, it really is part of the nature, and yeh in the past, men and women had multiple partners.

 

According to the others, women can't be lustful since they don't have all the testosterone floating around.

Edited August 30, 2013 by alwayson

[i am]

Ah, and we were just starting to have a nice conversation...

 

I admit that I'm my own person with my own ideas of normal, but the OP sounded to me like an extreme. And suddenly people are defining this extreme as normal.

 

And since when were those heavily into cultivation in line with normal society anyways?

 

And if, because cheating happens all the time, that makes it ok, then I'm not sure what morals and ideals are good for. Plenty of not good things happen all the time. But they won't happen cause of me, as much as I can control it.

 

Random sex with strangers? Fine, totally cool. But if you're into random sex with strangers, don't be in a relationship. Isn't that simple? Or if you want both, you better be honest with both parties. If I want to sleep around, why would I have a girlfriend? That would just hurt her. So it's really pretty simple. If you want to sleep around, do it, but not behind anyone's back. Honesty is a beautiful thing.

 

I know a couple guys who, when their marriage ended (and NOT before), started sleeping around a lot. They were very honest with any girl they took home, that they were not interested in a relationship right now, and laid out where they were coming from. How they do this without ruining the mood I'm not sure, but they've got it down. The girl then had the choice to accept the conditions, or walk away.

 

Of course there's still a chance of getting attached, but no one was cheated on, everyone was on the same page, and everybody got laid. Why is that so wrong? Is that Puritan? Do I have to be cheating on someone to be enlightened?

Edited August 30, 2013 by i am

[RongzomFan]

Ah, and we were just starting to have a nice conversation...

 

I admit that I'm my own person with my own ideas of normal, but the OP sounded to me like an extreme. And suddenly people are defining this extreme as normal.

 

And since when were those heavily into cultivation in line with normal society anyways?

 

And if, because cheating happens all the time, that makes it ok, then I'm not sure what morals and ideals are good for. Plenty of not good things happen all the time. But they won't happen cause of me, as much as I can control it.

 

Random sex with strangers? Fine, totally cool. But if you're into random sex with strangers, don't be in a relationship. Isn't that simple? Or if you want both, you better be honest with both parties. If I want to sleep around, why would I have a girlfriend? That would just hurt her. So it's really pretty simple. If you want to sleep around, do it, but not behind anyone's back. Honesty is a beautiful thing.

 

I know a couple guys who, when their marriage ended (and NOT before), started sleeping around a lot. They were very honest with any girl they took home, that they were not interested in a relationship right now, and laid out where they were coming from. How they do this without ruining the mood I'm not sure, but they've got it down. The girl then had the choice to accept the conditions, or walk away.

 

Of course there's still a chance of getting attached, but no one was cheated on, everyone was on the same page, and everybody got laid. Why is that so wrong? Is that Puritan? Do I have to be cheating on someone to be enlightened?

 

Who are you?

 

The morality police?

[ॐDominicusॐ]

According to the others, women can't be lustful since they don't have all the testosterone floating around.

 

Women also produce small levels of testosterone according to various cycles, and that testosterone does stir them up to get "frisky," for the sake of these bodies continuing to procreate. At this point, that is all scientific fact.

 

I'm more in line with normal society.

 

People cheat, break up, remarry etc. all the time.

 

The rest of you are living in some fantasy world.

To me, normal society with cheating, breaking up, remarrying is the fantasy world, and I don't care to have any part of that.

 

I will say this, like TibetanIce mentioned, in my personal view Sexual energy/Lust/Body all has to be transcended, worked with, equanimity gained, and so forth. It's all part of it. To be Realized, and yet still have the stirrings arise and cause trouble, well that leads to all osrts of further interesting discussion

 

That's sort of like being in Oneness, and yet various skandhas are still arising and have not been "taken care of" yet.

 

Personally, I find life better and more at ease when Lust/Sexual energy is at ease. Just an observation

[RongzomFan]

There is a dating website for people who want to have affairs:

 

https://www.ashleymadison.com/

[RongzomFan]

To me, normal society with cheating, breaking up, remarrying is the fantasy world, and I don't care to have any part of that

 

Evolutionary speaking, humans are not monogamous.

[Aetherous]

What do you guys think that the opposite of lust is?

I've been looking into the question a little bit...one idea is that self control/will power/discipline is the opposite (in general, not just in relation to sexuality).

[i am]

Who are you?

 

The morality police?

 

And still you show your lack of abiltiy to see beyond your own little mind.

[RongzomFan]

And still you show your lack of abiltiy to see beyond your own little mind.

 

You seem to be very young, and have little experience with real life, women, dating or what have you.