Cultivators and Kultivators

[Taomeow]

are not even from the same planet.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

culture versus cult?

[Flolfolil]

Dehumanization leads to Hatred leads to Conflict

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Dehumanization is synonymous with civilization.

[Taomeow]

Just playing with assorted ways to express some diffuse ideas via wordplay.

 

K in Kultivators -- there's no such word, I made it up -- is analogous to spelling America as Amerika, with fascist/nazi connotations.

 

Cultivation that turns Kultivation in this sense floats as a cloud of meanings in my mind:

the words that pop in and out of the cloud are cult, kult, culture, kulture, occult, okkult, and even some Russian ones (fizkultura, kulturist, these refer to exercise and bodybuilding), and a long string of alliterations -- Colt, ku-klux-clan...

 

The impulse for the formation of this cloud was provided by viewing a couple of TTB contributors as Kultivators, big on the Kult of Personality (their own), but this could go elsewhere -- occult (okkult) practices of the nazis and the elites, e.g..

 

"Ailian" is the Chinese version of my name given to me by my Mandarin teacher -- it means "love lotus," not "alien."

 

@ Flotfolil: what about modalities that view human as a defective, degraded, or illusory phenomenon? Do they "dehumanize" themselves and everybody else, or someone who happens to have noticed?..

Edited August 27, 2013 by Taomeow

[zerostao]

you playful love lotus

[Taomeow]

"You are the one letting it affect you" sounds as a response to something I never wrote...

 

Oh, and not all of them are just human. Talk to a native shaman if you don't believe me. Most humans are just human, but the ones responsible for the sad condition of the human mind, body and spirit are, occasionally, not.

[Taomeow]

Oh brother. You are way off.

[doc benway]

are not even from the same planet.

So true, and yet they are different facets of the same diamond, no?

 

 

 

"love lotus,"

That is brilliant, how can it not be your TTB's nick?

[liminal_luke]

My take....

 

Kultivation: trying to convince oneself that one is OK (while deep down feeling anything but) through quasi-spiritual practice. Kultivators often try to obtain siddis, powers that seem superhuman. Ordinary human goodness isn´t enough to fill an inner void they can´t stand to acknowledge.

 

I have a friend, a spiritual teacher actually, who went to a shaman who pronounced that he was from another planet. My friend was very proud of this. For all I know, it´s true--it certainly seems to fit. Nevertheless, I always tried to get him to embrace his human side. To be ok being an abnormal normal person like the rest of us. You don´t have to be an extraterrestrial to be worthy of love.

[Taomeow]

So true, and yet they are different facets of the same diamond, no?

 

 

 

That is brilliant, how can it not be your TTB's nick?

 

Glad you liked it! However, my TTB nick predates not only my Chinese studies but TTB itself.

 

As for different facets of the same diamond, this is probably not what you the good-hearted one meant, but the first thing I thought about when I tried to picture what those might be was those taoist, bon, shinto and shamanic masters who cultivate the ability to eat demons and other evil entities. The demon-eating exorcists are among the most efficient and by far the most fearless members of the profession. They actually look forward to every encounter with evil because they view it as a dinner invitation.

[Taomeow]

My take....

 

Kultivation: trying to convince oneself that one is OK (while deep down feeling anything but) through quasi-spiritual practice. Kultivators often try to obtain siddis, powers that seem superhuman. Ordinary human goodness isn´t enough to fill an inner void they can´t stand to acknowledge.

 

I have a friend, a spiritual teacher actually, who went to a shaman who pronounced that he was from another planet. My friend was very proud of this. For all I know, it´s true--it certainly seems to fit. Nevertheless, I always tried to get him to embrace his human side. To be ok being an abnormal normal person like the rest of us. You don´t have to be an extraterrestrial to be worthy of love.

 

I agree.

 

I can also see how one can go this way or that way, I mean, it's a bifurcation in the road for many, a choice -- no one is completely immune, and no one is completely hopeless. To look at things from this perspective adds a new facet to the age old advice --"get a teacher, choose wisely." A teacher can stop a potential Kultivator dead in his(her) tracks... or deliver a decisive push if he is a Kultivator himself.

 

One thing that happened in my shamanic endeavors was that She showed me several people in their "true form" in the multiverse. It was a shocking surprise to experience the sides and dimensions of those folks I never suspected, not in a million years... and yet the moment She showed me, I knew without a shadow of a doubt that it was the truth. E.g., She showed me a domineering, forceful man who always manages to occupy maximal amounts of space, whether physical, mental or emotional, as a bear -- which immediately put a lot of his traits in perspective -- and then as a bear-shaman, ancient, strong, wise, dangerous. And a few others in their respective "otherness" too. But She never showed me me this way. I think that was in and of itself telling. I'm left with trying to figure out why. Is it because I'm not ready to know, the knowledge might turn me into a Kultivator, similarly to what your friend did with the information?.. Who knows. I try to remember that this information was withheld from me by someone who knows all, and I think it's a reminder that I don't that is overall doing me a favor... I hope...

[mantis]

how can you tell if you're a kultivator

[MooNiNite]

The title of this thread is awesome.

 

All these new age kultivators talking about mass ascension..

[Taomeow]

how can you tell if you're a kultivator

 

My guess would be, people for whom "know thyself" is the first priority minimize the chance. Skewed kultivation is never a conscious choice, it's driven by unconscious impulses. There's something there to defend, something that feels small and powerless at all times and for all purposes -- something so vulnerable that it must be hidden from the world and from self at all costs.

 

Once you know what that is (it's you, only much younger... an infant, a small child... completely in someone else's power and not necessarily benefitting from it any), the sheer absurdity of defending that with a facade of power and glory and wisdom that doesn't help the actual target of this fortification (you, only much younger, not the current you) might giggle back at you from the mirror -- and heal the gap in consciousness between what you're doing and what you're doing it for.

 

When I said "not on the same planet," I didn't mean space. I meant time... The emotional age of a "kultivator" is anywhere between three hours and three years old, at most. They do not inhabit the current current of time, they inhabit their unresolved time, whenever that happened.

[Antares]

I would say that for real cultivation one needs real transmission from authentic master from legit lineage.

The problem is that there may be only few legit masters in the West who can do transmission.

Other ones would say you do not need transmission only bc they can't do it.

Most of the people (95% approx) just do qigong thinking they do real cultivation.

[Jetsun]

Maybe many have to go through the process of being a kultivator in order to become a cultivator

[Antares]

And not every qigong is useful. There could be quite harmful elements even in "well known" qigongs which can deplete prenatal qi. Also we have to confess there are many fake qigong "masters" unfortunately.

I think you are right, some people have "karma" to believe fake or not legit masters or practice something from books, video etc... Oh, I do not say all this completely WRONG but it can be waste of time and energy in most cases. I think person needs "right" karma to meet right teacher.

Maybe many have to go through the process of being a kultivator in order to become a cultivator

[i am]

I think the idea that cultivation only happens with a transmission from an "authentic" master is silly and elitist. Is nature an authentic master? If your answer is yes, then never mind. Your statement is not silly.

 

But that's me.

 

I like this distinction. Yes, there are definitely some CULTivators, or kultivators around this site.

Edited August 28, 2013 by i am

[Antares]

I think the idea that cultivation only happens with a transmission from an "authentic" master is silly and elitist. Is nature an authentic master? If your answer is yes, then never mind. Your statement is not silly.

Your statement is equal to call such prominent Taoist immortals as Lu Tung Pin and his teacher silly people. Elitist? Might be yes, but not silly. But that depends what you want to cultivate. There are few different levels of attainments according to Taoist authentic doctrines. Qigong cultivation does not require "transmission" as such. And works with postnatal qi mostly and does not give high level attainments. Better health, vitality, some psychic power, martial power - all this yes. But much more chances to get deviations with practice.

 

That's actually the problem in the West ( and China as well) that people don't know much about Tradition and do not realize the difference between diff kinds of cultivation.

[i am]

It's true. And "new-agey" or not, it's giving rise to much more, uh...enlightened views about cultivation.

[liminal_luke]

no one is completely immune, and no one is completely hopeless

 

 

I really like these two assertions as kind of twin safegaurds against using the otherwise quite useful concept of kultivation in the service of kultivation itself. It would be so easy, for me anyway, to look at other supposedly less spiritually advanced taobums (kultivators), and imagine that as a true cultivator I´m somehow in another league. And yet this very process of demonizing some perceived untolerable other, holding it apart from oneself, is perhaps part and parcel of kultivation.

 

If we are to stop kultivating, the first step is surely the willingness to look for and acknowledge our tendency to do so. I consider my own practice a mix of cultivation and kultivation. Much of what I do is in the service of integration and consciousness, but I´d be lying if I told you I don´t want to disappear, fly, and, my personal favorite, read everyone´s mind. Personally, I think all these things are possible and not bad in themselves. What gives the pursuit of them the flavor of kultivation is my motivation: the need to be better than everyone else in order not to feel less than everyone else.

 

When I start to disappear and fly at will, I´m not going to announce my abilities in taobums. Everyone would just insist on a video, and then argue about whether or not it was faked. Who needs the hassle? I´ll feel mighty smug just the same though.

Edited August 28, 2013 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

Lol, liminal_luke, you pinned it down -- superpowers for what, a youtube video and everybody arguing if it's fake? Precisely! Reminds me of Don Juan flying to the top of the tree and then telling Carlos who was wondering why he never shows this stuff in public, "what for? To scare Indians?.."

 

No, I don't think pursuit of superpowers in itself is a telltale sign -- what you pursue them for counts. A number of years ago, there was a very serious illness in my family that caught me in the middle of developing some "powers," and the first thing I did was to throw all of that into the healing, literally burning every last bit of me in the process. I never told anyone that I was doing this, but I was doing it 24/7. (I'm still mending, slowly, horrendous qi deficiency from back then -- I used up all I had and maxed out all my qi credit cards.) But then someone who can heal (or thinks he can) and will do it exclusively toward the goal of showing off, showing someone else, "look what I can do, look how special I am!" -- someone whose motivation is defensive self-aggrandising rather than love or compassion or an instinctive drive toward normalizing what one can in the world, without expecting or programming the world to gasp in admiration and awe... that's a kultivator.

 

For me, there's a few things that distinguish the two categories, and it's not about "demonizing" or "dehumanizing" kultivators, it's merely about noticing. It is, you know, part of awareness, to see things as clearly as possible. So, to the extent I'm capable to see clearly, I see people in love with their art and people in love with themselves doing (or talking about, even more often) the art, and they are different. They communicate differently, they send a different kind of vibe into the world, they're apples and oranges. Not that there's something inherently wrong with oranges -- unless they start throwing rotten oranges at you. Which is what kultivators are also prone to do.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Taomeow

[liminal_luke]

 

So, to the extent I'm capable to see clearly, I see people in love with their art and people in love with themselves doing (or talking about, even more often) the art, and they are different. They communicate differently, they send a different kind of vibe into the world, they're apples and oranges. Not that there's something inherently wrong with oranges -- unless they start throwing rotten oranges at you. Which is what kultivators are also prone to do.

This is very useful to me--thanks!

[Antares]

That's not only the distinction between them imho. You pin down they approach only but I believe that also it is the matter what exactly they do. Even if one sincerely loves what he/she does without egoistic narcissism but does wrong method whether it be distorted/not complete/fake... I would not count that person among cultivators. Delusions are very deep by nature and it's difficult to recognize where you are wrong until you have good spiritual teacher. I am not sure what exactly you wanted to pin down in this thread but first you should clarify what you count as Cultivation in general.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Antares