Chapter 1, Section 5 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Chapter 1: Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

Section 5: Far away on a hill there lived someone who preserved a plentiful harvest

 

 

 

Concepts discussed in Chapter 1, Section 5 are:

 

Space infinite

 

Time infinite

 

 

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html

 

(Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1)

[Stosh]

I'm thinking the useless thing in this section is supposed to be concern for the welfare or concerns of society . Conversely though, the pale dudes perspective is useless to everybody who doesn't share in it.

This section defies the pro-compassion crowd ,I'd say.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, this section is a tough one. I'm not even sure the concepts of infinate time/space are being presented but that's the best I could come up with. Of course, 'perspective' is being tested again.

 

Your mention of compassion this early in the study is interesting. Neat that you picked up on it.

[ChiDragon]

Nothing could hurt that man(神人) ; the greatest floods, reaching to the sky, could not drown him, nor would he feel the fervour of the greatest heats melting metals and stones till they flowed, and scorching all the ground and hills. From the dust and chaff of himself, he could still mould and fashion Yaos and Shuns; how should he be willing to occupy himself with things?'

 

This whole phrase was thrown off and misled by one mistranslation of two compound characters 神人. It is not possible for a man not be harmed by natural disasters. Only an immortal or a divine one can be exempted.

 

 

神人：　divine one; immortal.

 

Thus it should be rephrased as:

"Nothing could hurt that divine figure(神人) ; the greatest floods, ............ "

[dawei]

 

This whole phrase was thrown off and misled by one mistranslation of two compound characters 神人. It is not possible for a man not be harmed by natural disasters. Only an immortal or a divine one can be exempted.

 

 

神人：　divine one; immortal.

 

Thus it should be rephrased as:

"Nothing could hurt that divine figure(神人) ; the greatest floods, ............ "

 

There is no misleading or mistaking the meaning... so there is no need to rephrase in english. English does not seek to repeat the same words too much if you can convey the meaning.

 

Here is the conveying going on:

1. a Spirit-like man

2. flesh and skin were (smooth) as ice and (white) as snow

3. did not eat any of the five grains, but inhaled the wind and drank the dew; that he mounted on the clouds, drove along the flying dragons

4. by the concentration of his spirit-like powers he could save men from disease and pestilence

5. That man, with those attributes,

6. Nothing could hurt that man;

 

Anybody who can read english knows this construction and know who "that man" is... Spirit-like was used twice; to say it one more time would simply be bad english repetition.

 

This makes perfect sense in meaning. There is no need to translate word for word like this is a dictionary passage.

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, I got me lost in the translation. To me in Chinese or English, a man(人) is different from an immortal（神人）。　You may twist it anyway you like for your argument sake; only, if you want to put someone in doubt due to the ambiguity in some words.

Edited August 29, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I like both your arguements. I see the concern in both your arguements. I will not get involved in your arguement. Hehehe.

[rene]

 

Here is the conveying going on:

1. a Spirit-like man

2. flesh and skin were (smooth) as ice and (white) as snow

3. did not eat any of the five grains, but inhaled the wind and drank the dew; that he mounted on the clouds, drove along the flying dragons

4. by the concentration of his spirit-like powers he could save men from disease and pestilence

5. That man, with those attributes,

6. Nothing could hurt that man;

 

Anybody who can read english knows this construction and know who "that man" is... Spirit-like was used twice; to say it one more time would simply be bad english repetition.

 

This makes perfect sense in meaning. There is no need to translate word for word like this is a dictionary passage.

 

Through what method does Zz suggest That man's concentration of his spirit-like powers would effectively eliminate one half of the whole? [-->Every action is one of simultaneous creation and destruction; such is the way.] Was Zz trying to suggest that it was possible to remove dark from light?

 

Thanks-

[ChiDragon]

Nothing could hurt that divine figure(神人) ; the greatest floods, reaching to the sky, could not drown him, nor would he feel the fervour of the greatest heats melting metals and stones till they flowed, and scorching all the ground and hills......

This is a good example of a Free Wanderer having all these exemptions. In the parable, ZZ was indicating that only a divine figure or immortal can attain the realm of a Free Wanderer. It is because immortals are free from natural disasters and free of any human attachments. Thus they can travel or do as pleased with no limitation or restriction. ZZ's philosophy of Free Wanderer" is based on no limitation or restriction forced upon oneself.

[dawei]

Sorry, I got me lost in the translation. To me in Chinese or English, a man(人) is different from an immortal（神人）。　You may twist it anyway you like for your argument sake; only, if you want to put someone in doubt due to the ambiguity in some words.

 

Don't treat each word as a dictionary definition...

 

If someone says a red, three wheeled bicycle... and then says "That bike" later...

 

That bike IS STILL RED and IS STILL THREE WHEELED.

 

You don't change the bike just because you do not repeat every attribute about the bike.

 

You'll have to get use to english and how it builds upon previous meaning. In this way, the language is flexible.

[ChiDragon]

A man is a man.
An immortal is a an immortal.
A man is not an immortal.
An immortal is not a man.

How much more flexible can a language be......???




@MH....
Sorry, we got into this again. It was just inevitable. I've tried to stay within the scope of the subject, but.....!!! Oh well.....!!!

Edited August 29, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

@MH....

Sorry, we got into this again. It was just inevitable. I've tried to stay within the scope of the subject, but.....!!! Oh well.....!!!

No worry so far. Once again I say, the words are important until we have grasped the concept. Once the concept has been grasped we can forget about the words.

 

It is a given that different words mean different things to different people. I think it is only right that we explore the literal meaning as well as the connotations of the words until we have grasped as well as we can what Chuang Tzu was speaking to.

 

Remember please that there are other members reading these threads who do not read Chinese so we must do as best we can to discuss what Legge has given us. It's okay to go deeper but let's at least give the other readers a chance to first understand what they have read from the Legge translation.

[rene]

No worry so far. Once again I say, the words are important until we have grasped the concept. Once the concept has been grasped we can forget about the words.

 

It is a given that different words mean different things to different people. I think it is only right that we explore the literal meaning as well as the connotations of the words until we have grasped as well as we can what Chuang Tzu was speaking to.

 

Remember please that there are other members reading these threads who do not read Chinese so we must do as best we can to discuss what Legge has given us. It's okay to go deeper but let's at least give the other readers a chance to first understand what they have read from the Legge translation.

 

Stosh brought up a good concept point last night; I asked a good concept question 3 hours ago. MH gave stosh a pat on the back with only a "good question, son" rather than discussing his idea. My question, like stosh's, was on-topic and so far no reply. Everyone's (including Marblehead's) posts and focus is on the two chinese fighting fish. I'll check back later maybe to see if there is any interest in concepts. There's a whole shit-pot full of these MMA re-runs from over the last couple years right here in the Zz section if that's why you're here. Not me, though. (-: Peace out.

.

[Stosh]

Well I see zero change in the way the section reads making Cds correction..like dawei is saying- -however! ... Cd may have a rather different idea about what an immortal is was or is described to be so for him, it does change the meaning .

Having in brief- established the stances on the issue and If that subject can wait ,we can get on with the significance of the section as our host- Mh in this case ,wishes to cover it because there is more.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Yeah, this section is a tough one. I'm not even sure the concepts of infinate time/space are being presented but that's the best I could come up with. Of course, 'perspective' is being tested again. Your mention of compassion this early in the study is interesting. Neat that you picked up on it.

Compassion as a subject in daoist writing appears to me just an incidental aspect that people may have in their nature -rather than a thing to be artificially magnified or endorsed specifically , any more than a prediliction for sweets.

Buddhist infuenced strains appear more complimentary of it ..that may be compatible -if in the pursuit of it one is encouraged to butt out , or allow chips to fall where they may without imposing ones bias beyond ones business.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Through what method does Zz suggest That man's concentration of his spirit-like powers would effectively eliminate one half of the whole? [-->Every action is one of simultaneous creation and destruction; such is the way.] Was Zz trying to suggest that it was possible to remove dark from light? Thanks-

I read it from the angle that people suffer due to their biased illusions rather than see him suggesting that one bias can be consistently maintained successfully.

The acceptance of ALL rather than a WIN.

But acceptance of all, is not saying there is nothing bogus. It is accepting that which is not illusion as such, and trying to overcome that which is -so as not to suffer "at our own hands"

Edited August 30, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Stosh brought up a good concept point last night; I asked a good concept question 3 hours ago. MH gave stosh a pat on the back with only a "good question, son" rather than discussing his idea. My question, like stosh's, was on-topic and so far no reply. Everyone's (including Marblehead's) posts and focus is on the two chinese fighting fish. I'll check back later maybe to see if there is any interest in concepts. There's a whole shit-pot full of these MMA re-runs from over the last couple years right here in the Zz section if that's why you're here. Not me, though. (-: Peace out.

.

Well, I did reply to Stosh's post as best I could. He stated his perception. That's good. Dawei and Chidragon have spoken to the differences between man and immortals. Stosh spoke to that as well. The concept of compassion was not directly referred to in this section but Stosh pick up on the inferences to it. This concept will be spoken to many times as we go through the chapters.

 

Your post was directed to something Dawei had said. What you colored red of Dawei's post and then questioned the meaning of it doesn't hold much value to me because in Lien Shu's reply he stated the the immortal was not going to bother himself with such matters of worldly affairs.

 

Chuang Tzu is not saying that there are immortals that are going to cure all the ills of humanity. They live in a different realm of time and space.

 

It is my opinion that the only thing Chuang Tzu is presenting in this section is that we should not judge the universe solely on the little space and time we occupy. Remain open-minded. That is what he was saying when he was speaking of blindness - not only blindness of the physical senses but blindness of understanding as well.

 

Chuang Tzu was a mystic. He talks often of mystical concepts. But here we can see that even though there may be immortals or even gods of supernatural powers they are not going to bother with the physical constraints of the physical world nor bother themselves with the problems of man.

[Marblehead]

Compassion as a subject in daoist writing appears to me just an incidental aspect that people may have in their nature -rather than a thing to be artificially magnified or endorsed specifically , any more than a prediliction for sweets.

Buddhist infuenced strains appear more complimentary of it ..that may be compatible -if in the pursuit of it one is encouraged to butt out , or allow chips to fall where they may without imposing ones bias beyond ones business.

That's an interesting point. I think it is true that Chuang Tzu is more compatible with Buddhism than is Lao Tzu. But then, this has nothing to do with Section 5 of Chapter 1 of The Chuang Tzu. Hehehe.

 

However, what I colored of yours above is part of what is being spoken to in the section. There are many things happening on the planet that we should not even concern ourself with. Yeah, butt out.

[Marblehead]

I read it from the angle that people suffer due to their biased illusions rather than see him suggesting that one bias can be consistently maintained successfully. The acceptance of ALL rather than a WIN.

I don't think we should go so far as to say "acceptance of all" but rather to remain open to possibilities beyond our immediate understanding.

[rene]

Well, I did reply to Stosh's post as best I could. He stated his perception. That's good. Dawei and Chidragon have spoken to the differences between man and immortals. Stosh spoke to that as well. The concept of compassion was not directly referred to in this section but Stosh pick up on the inferences to it. This concept will be spoken to many times as we go through the chapters.

 

Your post was directed to something Dawei had said. What you colored red of Dawei's post and then questioned the meaning of it doesn't hold much value to me because in Lien Shu's reply he stated the the immortal was not going to bother himself with such matters of worldly affairs.

 

Chuang Tzu is not saying that there are immortals that are going to cure all the ills of humanity. They live in a different realm of time and space.

 

It is my opinion that the only thing Chuang Tzu is presenting in this section is that we should not judge the universe solely on the little space and time we occupy. Remain open-minded. That is what he was saying when he was speaking of blindness - not only blindness of the physical senses but blindness of understanding as well.

 

Chuang Tzu was a mystic. He talks often of mystical concepts. But here we can see that even though there may be immortals or even gods of supernatural powers they are not going to bother with the physical constraints of the physical world nor bother themselves with the problems of man.

 

Yes, but your thoughts hold value to those who ask questions - even if questions seem to be directed elsewhere. Who knows how long the fighting fish would be underwater Thanks for explaining your ideas regarding this section - and I think you did a pretty good job replying just now to Stosh's post too.

[dawei]

Dawei and Chidragon have spoken to the differences between man and immortals.

 

And I thought you understood english...

 

We were not talking about differences... I simply pointed out that in writing [good] english stories, you don't repeat the same word over and over; in context it is known the previous descriptions carry over.

 

That chinese needs to remind there reader over and over and over that it is a 'spirit-man' at every mention of the person is simply bad english, in english.

 

That's it...

 

Storytelling is an art, and CD should take a class(es) in writing engilsh as I think that would actually help his desire to translate as faithfully as possible.

[rene]

Hey dawei - while you're here -

 

Marblehead stated: "Chuang Tzu was a mystic. He talks often of mystical concepts. But here we can see that even though there may be immortals or even gods of supernatural powers they are not going to bother with the physical constraints of the physical world nor bother themselves with the problems of man."

 

Does that line up with the #4 item in your earlier post?

 

Thanks!

[dawei]

A man is a man.

An immortal is a an immortal.

A man is not an immortal.

An immortal is not a man.

 

How much more flexible can a language be......???

 

Your stuck in singular words instead of the context of the paragraph. Get outside words and get to the whole section. You've twisted your point to nonsense at this point.

 

I think all your angst about the english language would benefit from writing classes. I think you would actually find a lot useful towards your comprehensive and translation work.

Edited August 30, 2013 by dawei

[Marblehead]

And I thought you understood english...

You stop that. You two were talking about man and immortals. Yes, you concentrated on what you felt was important. CD did too. I will agree that CD needs to work more with his English but then who am I to make such a suggestion when I cannot read a single character of Chinese?

[Marblehead]

Yes, but your thoughts hold value to those who ask questions - even if questions seem to be directed elsewhere. Who knows how long the fighting fish would be underwater Thanks for explaining your ideas regarding this section - and I think you did a pretty good job replying just now to Stosh's post too.

Hehehe. What the hell can I say? I'm trying hard to not present myself as a know-it-all here. I do that often enough in other threads.

 

You know how important Chuang Tzu is to the totality of my philosophy. If I spoke too much I would appear to be biased. I am, of course, but I don't want to appear that way.

 

If I were having a one-on-one conversation with someone about this section I would suggest that they don't worry too much about this section because there isn't much of any value except for remaining open-minded.