Tibetan Buddhism

[Fat Mao]

The Dzogchen Khenpo I studied with says that Dzogchen tradition really respects Zen as a practice and teaching, but that it's much more difficult for most people to practice. From what I understand the goal is the same. I think it's clear that masters from both traditions have reached incredible levels, but when I look at the practices and the way they are received in the west, it's clear that Dzogchen has a broader appeal and accessability; especially the way it is present by Surya Das (aka Jeffery), who has done an amazing job of presenting the basic princibles of Dzogchen to the public in the US. Personally I agree with scholars in the west that Dzogchen is the 'new' spiritual practice for our generation.

 

Interestingly, while the Ch'an thing could very well have influenced Dzogchen, David believes as do I that it was the Daoists who originally influenced this tradition. Specifically, the Vadjra which has many similarities with and shares many of the same principles with the Lei Shan Dao. Of course you won't find that in any books. Dzogchen, as may have already been mentioned, was very unpopular in many parts of Tibet until the current Dali Lama spoke out in it's defense. Many Buddhists feel that because Dzogchen uses the frame of "true nature," that it is a basterdized form of Hinduism. But Dzogchen's answer to this debate is that there can be no true nature without emptiness. Personally, I think it's a rather Daoist take. True nature=Shen; the unmanifest.

 

Surya Das says that emptiness is not some void, it's dancing, formless, and full of variety. Something along those lines; a cosmic soup.

I also like that Dzogchen means great inclusion or great vehical because of the idea that all Buddha's teachings are included, including the secret vadjra tantras. Most lay people in the Kham region of Tibet used to practice vadjra tantra and there are many records of people who attained the famous rainbow body, and ascentions which also has connections to Daoist history of such events.

 

Sean, I like the point you are making here: the hidden influence of Taoism on both Traditions. I have also come to believe this as well, and is one of the reasons I have become more interested in Taoism in the last few years.

 

All of these Traditons are wonderful, and have given so much to Seekers on the Path.

[rex]

My opinions don't hold a drop of water either but here goes ..

 

I would like to point out here that these statements although accurate, are only so from the point of view of the Dzogchen Tradition. Because Namkhai Norbu is not steep in the Ch'an Tradition, it is easy for him to dismiss the "Ultimate" goal of Ch'an as something less, or at least different than Dzogchen.

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's statement is not dismissive, it's merely pointing out a difference in methodology, not goal.

 

The classification that he uses is a Traditional Tibetan one, not a Pan East Asian distinction.

Is there such a thing as a universally accepted Pan east Asian distinction? There's an awful lot of doctrinal dispute between schools. A generously inclusive nine level Tibetan classfication is shared with the Nyingmas and Bon only, interestingly, both custodians of the Dzogchen teachings.

 

I have read his (Namkahi Norbu) works, and if, as he claims, the basis of Ch'an is what is spoken of in the (Prajnaparamita) Sutras, then why do the Masters and Patriarchs of the Ch'an/Zen Traditions themselves claim that their lineage is transmitted without words, outside the sutras? Why is Hui Neng often depicted destroying the Prajnaparamita sutras, not protecting them and worshipping them, as is the case in the Tibetan Tradition?

There are exceptional individuals in every tradition who challenge forms. However did Hui Neng succeed in getting the Prajnaparamita sutras universally unprotected by all the Zen schools? Forms and methods exist to suit the capacity and inclinations of indivduals.

 

As far as the statement: "rather as endowed with all the aspects of the self-perfection of energy," is concerned, I find it highly unsubstantiated, especially when comparing an expreince to other purported experiences, niether of which which can be accurately described or put into words.

Have you received Togal transmission? Purported experiences? Now this is a rhetorical question, have you had your meditation experiences in the Tibetan tradition validated by a teacher?

 

By the way, the quote from my previous post is from Longchen Rabjam (Longchenpa), a very High, enlightend Dzogchen Master. When I first heard it, I thought it must be from a Zen Master. But whats the difference anyway?

There's no denying there are similarities and overlaps (see my previous post above). Its not a question of ultimate compatibility of the goal, but of method and the resulting aspect of reality emphasised and worked with. However Longchenpa transmitted the Longchen Nyingtik to Jigme Lingpa long after his physical death. Do departed Zen masters do similar? Do Zen masters achieve the rainbow body?

Edited May 13, 2007 by rex

[Yen Hui]

By the way, the quote from my previous post is from Longchen Rabjam (Longchenpa), a very High, enlightend

Dzogchen Master. When I first heard it, I thought it must be from a Zen Master. But whats the difference

anyway?

 

This was precisely my own feeling regarding Lama Surya's description of the essential nature of Dzogchen,

as quoted above. It struck me as a statement that could have just as easily been made by any Chan master,

in regard to his own Chan philosophy and practice. Incidentally, here is a selection of online articles which I

thought might interest persons reading this thread, as they touch upon issues relevant to the topics either

broached or under discussion within this thread:-

 

01 - Chan and Taoism

 

02 - The Taoist Influence on Hua-Yen Buddhism

 

03 - The Understanding of Mind in the Northern Line of Ch'an

 

04 - Chuang-Tzu And The Chinese Ancestry of Ch'an Buddhism, and Also Here

 

05 - A Case Study in the Assimilation of Daoist Influence and the Formation of Chan Identity

 

06 - Northern Ch'an and the Sudden vs. Gradual Enlightenment Debate In China And Tibet

 

07 - Common Grounds in the Practice Paths of Chuan Chen Tao and Dzog Chen Dharma