Authentic Sexual Cultivation Methods: Reality and Illusion

[DentyDao]

Link to Essay

 

This is an essay on the authentic sexual cultivation methods practiced by the immortal sages of ancient China. Many people drawn to cultivation and Taoist sexual arts will be surprised to learn the depth and complexity of these practices is actually NOT addressed in most of the popular literature and teachings on the subject. Enjoy.

 

Link to Essay Number two

 

This is second essay, also about sexual cultivation. This essay focuses on questions raised by the first essay above.

 

Warm Regards, Sean

Edited May 11, 2007 by seandenty

[Trunk]

the depth and complexity of these practices is actually NOT addressed in most of the popular literature and teachings on the subject.

The depth & complexity is not addressed in any of the popular literature, as far as I can tell (and I'd bet many of TTBs would agree with me). If there is any popularly available text on the subject that is responsible, I'd like to hear it.

 

Seems to me, also, that it'd fill volumes. Related medical text for treating severe imbalances. Movement practices, meditation practices, at the level of house-holder - and further for those in the monk and hermit stages. All with clear authentic theory & strategy. A comprehensive list of dangers and "things that can go wrong", and remedies.

[GrandTrinity]

Mind posting this on here (so I dont have to register for another board! I thought I had an account on your board anyways? long time since i accessed it and dont recall the username...)

[DentyDao]

Mind posting this on here (so I dont have to register for another board! I thought I had an account on your board anyways? long time since i accessed it and dont recall the username...)

 

Hey Grand T, Just reregister if you like.

 

Trunk, Nice idea. Something for the future I'm sure.

Edited May 11, 2007 by seandenty

[spyrelx]

The depth & complexity is not addressed in any of the popular literature, as far as I can tell (and I'd bet many of TTBs would agree with me). If there is any popularly available text on the subject that is responsible, I'd like to hear it.

 

 

I don't know about responsible, but the penis drinking stuff is fairly well known amongst indian yogis. Hunting around on the net years ago I saw references to it and (though I've never seen it personally) many a backpacker that's been to India have seen it done.

 

Actually, from what I remember reading, you start with water, then milk, honey, other stuff and you end up getting to some element (I think mercury but I'm not sure). But that stuff I read (which was internet and sketchy) implied that it was the actual practice of taking the mercury (or whatever element it was) into your body that was part of the alchemical process they were trying to achieve (in other words, not just a test to show proficiency). Probably, like a lot of other things, penis drinking is largely a physical exercise that can be learned. It's the linking of it with whatever other esoteric meditation, breathing, training, etc., that gives it value greater than a circus act. I doubt there is detailed stuff on that available in print.

[spyrelx]

[DentyDao]

From David:

 

"Dear Sean

My name is plenty discussed already, I'm afraid that partial quoting can be even worse then whole:-)

it is ok if people paraphrase my words, disclaiming it is NOT what I mean but what they understand, and by doing so they take any blame for misunderstanding or msiquotation or mirepresentation of the practice or my masters and I."

 

Spyrolex,

 

I know you mean well. But David prefers not to be quoted. Perhaps in a US court of law, you would be admonished. But you are going against the wishes of David and the masters. There is some karmic weight here. I just say that so you are aware, not as a threat.

 

David was not suggesting anyone has this degree of personality imbalance. He was exaggerating to illustrate a point. What you quoted is fine and your comments are intended to be balanced, but you are setting a precident for others that is disrespectful. How hard would it be to paraphrase as he asks and put those quotations in your own words? I think it's worth the effort to maintain the dignity and honor we all feel toward David and his teachers.

 

Thx, I have a feeling you will understand. This is all I will say on the matter.

Edited May 12, 2007 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

I also find (though can not prove this) that retention leads to increased energy levels and, in some weird way, to increased phsical attractiveness to the opposite sex. In other words, somehow, that build up of energy shows.

 

As I alluded to with David's quote above, you can get crazy with it, and it can hurt you. I think once you start building up that energy, if you don't have a real good spiritual practice going that can use it (and I don't) it can mess with you. So "release" in one form or another (ejaculation, massive exercise, etc.), becomes necessary for the casual dabbler in these practices.

 

Retention just leads to repressed sex drive. This happens with all animals, it's a natural impulse to trigger mating. Animals usually, with due exception of some primates, generally don't masterbate.

 

These practices don't lead to real reversion of jing and they don't give greater energy. They are like viagra, slowly sucking the life; while all the while you feel like a rock hard rock star; until the long term effect takes it's tole on your root and you are left incapable of undertaking any kind of cultivation. It can, as David is trying to warn people, permently burn out your channels and create the problems he has written about, some so vile you would recoil at the mere thought of it.

 

As for ejaculating once in a while as a safe guard, it really makes little difference with regard to some the problems that can occur.

 

Now, if used in the proper way, some the of basic sexual techniques can be theraputic and definity improve the sensation and duration of sex. But you need to be careful here too. The minute you become obsessive and start mixing and combining with meditation, you take a risk. The irony here is that it's more of an issue for younger men who are the ones more likely to get confused and misuse these things. The chances of something going wrong are about 50/50 even if you do everything right. What's more, it's better to go to a tcm clinic in China and learn the practice from a doctor than use the HT methods. Even Winn's are flawed.

 

I would be much more in favor of Stephan Chang's work if you are looking for a more balance method. Ron Diana seemed to feel this was a good alternative.

[Cameron]

Sean D,

 

Just so I understand you, are you saying methods like testicle breathing, without much of any force, just naturally feeling sexual energy move from the testicles up the spine to the brain(naturally without much forced effort) is dangerous?

 

I understand the worry about the Big Draw and have heard alot of people share your concern about 'forcing' hot yang sexual energy up to the brain/crown but I think Winn's approach is to do alot of testicle breathing, and if you ejaculate it's not the end of the world.

 

I have also heard some teachers speak of 'huan jing bu nao' or something that translates to 'return the sexual energy to repair the brain' the idea being sexual energy feeds the mind and brain and even improves mental capacities, memory etc.

 

I know when I ejaculate I feel rather low energy and my mind doesn't feel as sharp for a day or two and when I do retention my mind feels sharper, have more energy etc.

 

Thoughts?

[Smile]

I also find (though can not prove this) that retention leads to increased energy levels and, in some weird way, to increased phsical attractiveness to the opposite sex. In other words, somehow, that build up of energy shows.

Yeap. Women are attracted to you like flies to honey (no offence, ladies). It's very important at this point to do mind cultivation or you will have your mind running everywhere with lust, desires, etc.

[Smile]

Just so I understand you, are you saying methods like testicle breathing, without much of any force, just naturally feeling sexual energy move from the testicles up the spine to the brain(naturally without much forced effort) is dangerous?

To me, it's not natural if you have to practice/visualize it. It's a method and, although it's may not be connected to the breath and seems not to be a forceful practice, I'm not sure about the long-term effects.

 

All sexual practices Chia teaches are probably nit-picked from a larger system with appropriate level of attainment required. Is all this necessary? Not sure it is.

 

For instance, if I meditate long enough, most of my penis naturally goes inside my body and balls draw in right to the sides of the shaft. To me, it's a natural process not caused by any specific sexual method.

 

So, what exactly are the goals of retention?

Saving energy so you have something to transform to more refined states?

The more energy you have, the stronger and harder you can be, thus better satisfying your partner. For some this is a goal in itself, and it is perfectly fine. I suspect the original sexual cultivation methods were designed specifically for dual spiritual cultivation. But they would be so far beyond any beginner level almost no one would qualify to go through such a thing.

 

M.

[Cameron]

Goals? I would say all of the above. I agree as far as meditation it seems when you cultivate properly(basically..don't control or manipulate) the qi does seem to know where to go.

 

As far as meditation and cultivation I totally agree with that. I guess retention would be more a 'damage control' measure to prevent loss of qi etc.

 

ps .Also I read david say on the foundation forum how pc contractions screw your system up if you ever want to practice his system. Something about contracting pc prevents the cultivation of yang qi or something.

[spyrelx]

[Wayfarer64]

To me, it's not natural if you have to practice/visualize it. It's a method and, although it's may not be connected to the breath and seems not to be a forceful practice, I'm not sure about the long-term effects.

 

All sexual practices Chia teaches are probably nit-picked from a larger system with appropriate level of attainment required. Is all this necessary? Not sure it is.

 

For instance, if I meditate long enough, most of my penis naturally goes inside my body and balls draw in right to the sides of the shaft. To me, it's a natural process not caused by any specific sexual method.

 

So, what exactly are the goals of retention?

Saving energy so you have something to transform to more refined states?

The more energy you have, the stronger and harder you can be, thus better satisfying your partner. For some this is a goal in itself, and it is perfectly fine. I suspect the original sexual cultivation methods were designed specifically for dual spiritual cultivation. But they would be so far beyond any beginner level almost no one would qualify to go through such a thing.

 

M.

 

I believe that a duel spiritual/sexual cultivation is the highest form of any and all such practices, otherwise why else do them at all? I find it hard to believe that many people wish to be celibate rather than sexually inter-active. But I have never bought into the immortality quest as such. I believe that we are each already immortal and just need to awaken our consciousnesses to that inner eternal light that needs no cultivation, only recognition. I see that both tantric inter-active and celebate retention may be ways to approach such states of consciousness.

Keeping and using all of our human attributes seems the path to the most well-rounded and healthy out-come.

[Cameron]

I think quite a few teachers agree with you Wayfarer. In the Taoist scene David Twicken and Bryn Orr both wrote(if I remember correctly) that Taoist cultivation is not about "becoming Immortal" as much as becoming aware that you are already so. I think Bryn says it's about 'waking up' to higher dimensions/aspects of yourself.

 

This feels more like the truth to me. When people speak of becoming Immortal it almost sounds like 'make my already huge ego even greater'.

 

It may just be an issue of translation, I agree with David Twicken that virtue and being natural is a foundation to all of this. Whoever you end up studying with and whatever practice you do, keeping virtue and naturalness the foundation is a good thing.

[Wayfarer64]

Cam,

DO NOT EQUIVICATE !!! YOU THINK, YOU THINK! SAY IT MAN IT IS YR TRUTH, DAMN IT MAN YELL IT TO THE FREAKING RAFTERS YES AND BEYOND THE RAFTERS ---

 

 

BEING VIRTUOUS & NATURAL,

CRIMMINY JEEPERS WHY WOULD THAT BE SO HARD TO DO?

YES DAMN IT IT IS A VERY A VERY GOOD THING -

WHEEW I NEEDED THAT-

Edited May 12, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Cameron]

[DentyDao]

Sean D,

 

Just so I understand you, are you saying methods like testicle breathing, without much of any force, just naturally feeling sexual energy move from the testicles up the spine to the brain(naturally without much forced effort) is dangerous?

 

Testical breathing? are you joking? for what purpose? to nurish the brain? Does your brain, at your age need nurishment?

 

I understand the worry about the Big Draw and have heard alot of people share your concern about 'forcing' hot yang sexual energy up to the brain/crown but I think Winn's approach is to do alot of testicle breathing, and if you ejaculate it's not the end of the world.

 

The system as a whole is based on a lie. Basic qigong is being touted as cultivation. That's the first lie. Did you know several HT instructors have serious cronic health issues that know one knows about. Includingthe ones who claim to has made adjustments to creat a safer system. Why are you doing practices that are mostly taught to men over fifty who have burnt out there libido and have a 50/50 success rate even with herbs and medical qigong?

 

Is it going to kill you? No, your young and strong like Bull. Could it over time undermine your ability to successfull practice cultivation, absolutely. Could it over ten/twenty years cause serious problems, I certainly wouldn't take that risk, not if I knew better.

 

I have also heard some teachers speak of 'huan jing bu nao' or something that translates to 'return the sexual energy to repair the brain' the idea being sexual energy feeds the mind and brain and even improves mental capacities, memory etc.

We have all heard of such things. Read David's essay again. Real reversionary practices are very rare, ven people who have some mastery are often missing the full picture.

 

These exercises have no significant effect on the brain. That would be absurd. Now maybe celibacy, or moderate sex would prevent a perdisposition to the aging of the brain or something like that, but lot's of reserch says differently. Just as many monks go senile as sexually active folks, as far as I know. If this weren't the case, I think we'd be hearing something about it. But it's not, science encourages sex in moderation all the way up into the 80 and 90 year old grandpa's out there.

 

I know when I ejaculate I feel rather low energy and my mind doesn't feel as sharp for a day or two and when I do retention my mind feels sharper, have more energy etc.

 

No one is saying ejaculation doesn't take a toll on the body. If you want to retain your sperm I would suggest Stephen Chang or maybe Plato's Dr. Lin or something. I'm not really familiar with Lin, but I have read Plato's book and I think the techniques are at least an improvement. Even with that, if misused you could get problems. But, ejactulation is healthy. I think this drain is just a biological mechanism. It has little to do with real long term health. Look at healthy people who live long productive lives, most of them are having lots of normal sex.

 

We, especially those of us who have been through the HT, need to deprogram a bit and realize that things aren't quite as they seem.

Edited May 12, 2007 by seandenty

[Cameron]

Ok, cool. Sean, if it's not too much trouble when you have time, could you ask your teacher what he thinks of Master Tseng in Colorado? He is a lineage Taoist in both Wudang and Longmen sect and teaches Alchemy. There are several levels of the Alchemy training you go through.

 

It looks and sounds like the 'real deal' to me. It sounds like your teacher is pretty knowledgable on who's who in the Taoist world if he could could comment on Master Tseng. I am most likely doing a workshop with him later this year.

 

Master Tseng

[DentyDao]

Cameron, think about what you are asking. I'm am supposed to run this little request over to my teacher for you and get right back to you? Ask him yourself. If David knows the guy he will give you an honest answer. He has recommended teachers before, not that it's his job to do such things.

[Wayfarer64]

The depth & complexity is not addressed in any of the popular literature, as far as I can tell (and I'd bet many of TTBs would agree with me). If there is any popularly available text on the subject that is responsible, I'd like to hear it.

 

Seems to me, also, that it'd fill volumes. Related medical text for treating severe imbalances. Movement practices, meditation practices, at the level of house-holder - and further for those in the monk and hermit stages. All with clear authentic theory & strategy. A comprehensive list of dangers and "things that can go wrong", and remedies.

 

 

What is the goal of these practices is a much more interesting question.

 

If it is the immortality that you already posses, then it is only a waste of time. You'll be dead one day and metaphysically kicking yourself for the crazy waste of time and lost joy of life that you missed out on.

[Cameron]

Cameron, think about what you are asking. I'm am supposed to run this little request over to my teacher for you and get right back to you? Ask him yourself. If David knows the guy he will give you an honest answer. He has recommended teachers before, not that it's his job to do such things.

 

 

I don't think I implied that at all. If your not comfortable doing so than no problem. I havent really even introduced myself to David or said anything on your forum so I would probably do before I to start asking peoples opnion of other teachers.

 

Wheras you are here, basically daily, sharing your views with us, so I thought it might not be a big deal for you to ask david for me, as you communicate with him regularly.

 

No big deal, also if you do feel comfortable with this-whenever..no rush at all..by all means let me know in private PM not publically.

 

If not, no worries.

[DentyDao]

Again I wouldn't be comfortable doing that and it wouldn't be appropriate. You are welcome to ask anything to want on the forum or PM David directly. That's way I made the forum.

 

 

 

What is the goal of these practices is a much more interesting question.

 

If it is the immortality that you already posses, then it is only a waste of time. You'll be dead one day and metaphysically kicking yourself for the crazy waste of time and lost joy of life that you missed out on.

Actually these abilities develop naturally with proper practice and without any emphasis on sex.

[Smile]

Hi Pat,

I believe that a duel spiritual/sexual cultivation is the highest form of any and all such practices, otherwise why else do them at all?

I don't think we need anyone to cultivate successfully. To say it's the highest practice... maybe, maybe not, I don't know any real sexual spiritual method.

I find it hard to believe that many people wish to be celibate rather than sexually inter-active.

I choose to be because relationship requires lots of time that I would rather dedicate to practice. Sexual energy is very binding and, unless your partner is evolved, will certainly slow you down on the path.

But I have never bought into the immortality quest as such. I believe that we are each already immortal and just need to awaken our consciousnesses to that inner eternal light that needs no cultivation, only recognition.

I agree and I also believe spiritual methods help this process happen. All the masters of the past went through hard training. The recognition will come through it.

I see that both tantric inter-active and celibate retention may be ways to approach such states of consciousness. Keeping and using all of our human attributes seems the path to the most well-rounded and healthy out-come.

Sure. Every individual has their own unique predisposition to certain paths and methods. Buddha is said to have given 84,000 instructions, which elaborate on all the afflictions and the means of overcoming them.

 

 

Max