Syria

[Thunder_Gooch]

HEY MPG - please put the name of who you are talking/replying to at the top of your post. Some of us old folks (me) gets confused. Thanks!

 

edit - like just now. I didn't see the quote from TS in your post. sigh...sorry

Np I posted it at the top.

[rene]

 

Sounds like Obama's plan is just to slap Assad on the wrist and disable him from using chemical weapons, with some targeted strikes. I guess that's the best option which could come to mind.

 

Taking out Assad would just create a vaccuum that Al Qaeda would easily fill.

 

I hope there is a better decision than any of this, though.

 

That's the problem. The strike that obama has planned wont disable him from using chemical weapons. The CW's are being intentionally excluded as targets for the strike; they'll be left intact and ready to go for assad's next round.

 

I appreciate your words on this, and share in your hopes.

[Aetherous]

That's the problem. The strike that obama has planned wont disable him from using chemical weapons. The CW's are being intentionally excluded as targets for the strike; they'll be left intact and ready to go for assad's next round.

 

I appreciate your words on this, and share in your hopes.

 

That's not what he said in his speech today.

 

"...deter this kind of behavior, and degrade their capacity to carry it out." - Obama

Edited August 31, 2013 by turtle shell

[rene]

I hope it does, TS, truly. And I hope Obama is pinning his thinking on more than just a limited strike of a few airfields, etc. And yet, this raises another question.

 

What happens, what does the west do, if the strike is successful, and assad never again uses chemical weapons, but continues to slaughter 10's of thousands of his people using other means.

 

How do we still stay out of it? Isn't that like saying...sure, go ahead you murderous turd - keep killing - but just don't use that gassy stuff.

 

 

 

****

 

ps to TS and everybody: Feel free to ignore any of my questions posted in my replies. I'm just tossing thoughts out here, and I'm not trying to drag anyone into a drawn out conversation.

[Apech]

Right, right. The only connection I meant to make was past hesitations influencing today's timings - nothing more specific than that intended. Sorry I was so unclear.

 

 

How does one stop? It's so ingrained now....both the west's providing and the other's receiving.

 

There was a report on CNN? recently from inside one of the refugee camps just over the border..and they showed a 10-yr old Syrian girl saying through the translator "Where is Obama? We need help now!. We will grow up saying Obama refused to help us." I'm like..aw.. you gotta be kidding. Now there's a sense of entitlement?? The US is supposed to provide everything to everybody?? This is a hard pattern to break -but it will break, and it will be a complete break - because just in case nobody's noticed, the backs of the US taxpayers are just about broken.

 

I find the media to be used by governments for propaganda ... so I am suspicious of whether the girls sentiments are widely held views. Most countries end up resenting intervention and even those that are benefitted quickly become resentful after time.

 

All these problems go back decades if not centuries ... the UK, the US and france (and Russia) have been meddling in the middle east all this time often to destabilise ... what is needed is a proper understanding first and action which is specific to the problem. We need to know for instance exactly who the rebels are (this was never clear in Libya) and there needs to be a plan ... a plan probably over say 20 years to try to achieve lasting peace based on mutual prosperity and benefit. Not knee jerk reactions to emotive issues.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Apech

[gatito]

And here we have a claim that it's actually thé Saudi's who are the controlling mind behind this vile mess: -

 

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

 

(www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/)

[Aetherous]

[MooNiNite]

All this excessive funding to local police in the US...machine guns, tanks, military grade outfits....

 

Maybe they have been preparing for a draft?

[rene]

or a war.

[Marblehead]

Pres doesn't have the authority unless threat to US is imminent.

Lies are easy to tell for politicians.

[rene]

Which makes it amazing when they expose their own lies.

[Marblehead]

I just scanned a couple articles a few minutes ago on the news before coming to the forum.

 

1. Obama said he will seek congressional approval before taking any action.

 

2. The Syrian rebels said that just a missle strike wouldn't really help their cause much.

[idquest]

About 1.5 years ago Obama was pressed by Israel and Saudi re Assad's chemical weapon. This pressure resulted in what in hindsight appears to be a really stupid USA obligation about red line for Assad using chemical weapons. Now when it appears Assad (or his brother without Assad's authorization) used it, or the whole thing was fabricated by Saudi puppets in Syria, Obama has to do something so that Iran wouldn't think that Obama is too weak to not allow Iran to make its nuke.

 

Facing an option to be virtually the only one in the whole world getting into this s**t, Obama finds not a bad solution. First he says he wants a military action against Assad. This lifts his obligation to Israel and Saudi he assumed 1.5 years ago. But then he refers to the congress to back his actions. So if something goes totally wrong, which is highly likely, he is not to blame, but rather the whole representative system of the USA to blame. FOr Obama personally this is perhaps the best he could have done in the s**t barrel he found himself.

[rene]

idquest - agree, good for obama, for now...but its sure a toss of the dice, imo. If congress votes yes - we attack, he's covered politically. If congress votes no - does he go ahead anyway? if yes and it works (it wont) then he's good. if yes and it fails (it will) he's hurt. To me, that's interesting political side issues. What he's done, in this "I've made two decisions" speech - is blow what little credibility the office of the president has left. After blinking weakening obama... will the next pres try to swing the pendulum back by being "a new marshal in town" ? Either way, his party has problems. I've got this wac-a-mole image, with potus popping up out of the barrel he crawled into himself... and his crew up for election next year wondering if they should swing now or not.

 

^^some of that might not make sense to some folks. please ignore the colloquial slang, with my apologies. nothing I say is of any use; it just kinda helps saying it.

[idquest]

The elegance of Obama's two decisions is that Israel wants desperately to neutralize Assad's Chem weapons. Israel has enormous bipartisan support in the Congress and very influential lobby in Washington. I'd bet the military action against Assad is in much more Israeli interest than in Obama administration interest. So Obama in a way gives B. Netanyahu (Israeli premier) opportunity to do the dirty work to convince the Congress to share with him the fun of diving in the barrel of s**t. As for Obama's interests, just look at how he treated Syrian crisis for last two years just before the s**t hit the fan - virtually zero attention at all. He has no stakes there except for that one year old obligation on Assad's crossing the red line by using the chem weapon.

[Aetherous]

As for Obama's interests, just look at how he treated Syrian crisis for last two years just before the s**t hit the fan - virtually zero attention at all.

 

I thought he was sending weapons and over a billion dollars to the Sunni Syrian rebels (possibly including al-Nusra Front, Al Qaeda of Iraq's group in Syria).

[rene]

Last i heard, yes, that was promised to the original rebel group, but it has yet to materialize. Because it never happened, the AQ and Hezbollah factions, armed and supported by others, have now outpaced the initial fighters. <---of course that all may be just propaganda. Who knows what's real anymore.

[Thunder_Gooch]

All this excessive funding to local police in the US...machine guns, tanks, military grade outfits.... Maybe they have been preparing for a draft?

 

Martial Law.

Edited September 1, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/aug/30/syria-chemical-attack-war-intervention-oil-gas-energy-pipelines

 

This is a pretty good summary of the real motivations behind it all, its all about gas and oil pipelines and trying to strategically cut out Iranian and Russian influence by creating an alternative pipeline into Europe which Assad had declined to build.

[Thunder_Gooch]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-31/guest-post-what-expect-during-next-stage-collapse

 

1) Many U.S. allies will refrain from immediate participation in an attack on Syria. Obama will continue unilaterally (or with the continued support of Israel and Saudi Arabia), placing even more focus on the U.S. as the primary cause of the crisis.

 

2) Obama will attempt to mitigate public outcry by limiting attacks to missile strikes, but these strikes will be highly ineffective compared to previous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

3) A no fly zone will be established, but the U.S. navy will seek to stay out of range of high grade Russian missile technology in the hands of Syria, and this will make response time to the Syrian Air Force more difficult. Expect much higher American naval and air force casualties compared to Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

4) Iran will immediately launch troops and arms in support of Syria. Syria will become a bewildering combat soup of various fighting forces battling on ideological terms, rather than over pure politics and borders. Battles will spread into other countries, covertly and overtly, much like during Vietnam.

 

5) Israel will probably be the first nation to send official ground troops into Syria (and likely Iran), citing a lack of effectiveness of U.S. airstrikes. American troops will follow soon after.

 

6) Iran will shut down the Straight of Hormuz sinking multiple freighters in the narrow shipping lane and aiming ocean skimming missiles at any boats trying to clear the wreckage. Oil exports through the straight of Hormuz will stop for months, cutting 20% of the world's oil supply overnight.

 

7) The Egyptian civil war, now underway but ignored by the mainstream, will explode due to increased anger over U.S. presence in Syria. The Suez Canal will become a dangerous shipping option for oil exporters. Many will opt to travel around the Horn of Africa, adding two weeks to shipping time and increasing the cost of the oil carried.

 

8) Saudi Arabia will see an uprising of insurgency that has been brewing under the surface for years.

 

9) Gasoline prices will skyrocket. I am predicting a 75%-100% increase in prices within two-three months of any strike on Syria.

 

10) Travel will become difficult if not impossible with high gasoline costs. What little of our economy was still thriving on vacation dollars will end. Home purchases will fall even further than before because of the extreme hike in travel expenses required for families to move.

 

11) Russia will threaten to limit or cut off all natural gas exports to the EU if they attempt to join with the U.S. in aggression against Syria. The EU will comply due to their dependency on Russian energy.

 

12) Russia will position naval forces in the Mediterranean to place pressure on the U.S. I feel the possibility of Russia initiating direct confrontation with the U.S. is limited, mainly because countries like Russia and China do not need to engage the U.S. through force of arms in order to strike a painful blow.

 

13) China and Russia will finally announce their decision to drop the dollar completely as the world reserve currency. A process which already began back in 2005, and which global banks have been fully aware of for years.

 

14) Because of China's position as the number one exporter and importer in the world, many nations will follow suit in dumping the dollar in bilateral trade. The dollar's value will implode. China, Russia, and the war in Syria will be blamed, and global banks including the Federal Reserve will be ignored as the true culprits.

 

15) The combination of high energy prices and a devaluing dollar will strike retail prices hard. Expect a doubling of prices on all goods. Look for many imported goods to begin disappearing from shelves.

 

16) Homelessness will expand exponentially as cuts to welfare programs, including food stamps, are made inevitable. However, welfare will not disappear, it will merely be “adjusted” to fit different goals. The homeless themselves will be treated like criminals. The roaming bands of jobless drifters common during the Great Depression will not exist during a modern crisis. State and Federal agencies will pursue an “out of sight, out of mind” policy towards the indigent, forcing them into “aid shelters” or other bureaucratic contraptions designed to conditioning the homeless to accept refugee status, making them totally dependent on federal scraps, but also prisoners on federally designated camps.

 

17) Terrorist attacks (false flag or otherwise) will spread like wildfire. Israel is highly susceptible. The U.S. may see a string of attacks, including cyber attacks on infrastructure. Syria and it's supporters will be blamed regardless of evidence. The White House will begin broad institution of authoritarian powers, including continuity of government executive orders, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, etc.

 

18) Martial Law may not even be officially declared, but the streets of America will feel like martial law none the less.

 

19) False paradigms will flood the mainstream as the establishment seeks to divide American citizens. The conflict will be painted as Muslim against Christian, black against white, poor against rich (but not the super rich elites, of course). Liberty Movement activists will be labeled “traitors” for “undermining government credibility” during a time of crisis. The Neo-Conservatives will place all blame on Barack Obama. Neo-Liberals will blame conservatives as “divisive”. Liberty Movement activists will point out that both sides are puppets of the same international cabal, and be labeled “traitors” again. The establishment will try to coax Americans into turning their rage on each other.

 

20) The Homeland Security apparatus will be turned completely inward, focusing entirely on “domestic enemies”. The domain of the TSA will be expanded onto highways and city streets. Local police will be fully federalized. Northcom will field soldiers within U.S. border to deal with more resistant quarters of the country. Totalitarianism will become the norm.

[Marblehead]

Today doesn't seem to be one of your more optimistic days.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Today doesn't seem to be one of your more optimistic days.

[Uroboros]

 

 

[joeblast]

cripes, why did I look at the news again?

 

[abandonhope]

Bombing people to stop people from bombing people makes perfect sense.