Syria

[Thunder_Gooch]

Bombing people to stop people from bombing people makes perfect sense.

 

 

[Aetherous]

Not that I'm for it...but targeted strikes are a whole lot different from chemical weapons used against civilians.

Just like signing the Monsanto Protection Act is a whole lot different from the Syrian chemical weapon attack. It's not a good thing, but there's such a huge difference between these. It's good to be intelligent when disagreeing, and not to rely on senseless memes.

Edited September 1, 2013 by turtle shell

[Thunder_Gooch]

Not that I'm for it...but targeted strikes are a whole lot different from chemical weapons used against civilians.

 

Just like signing the Monsanto Protection Act is a whole lot different from the Syrian chemical weapon attack. It's not a good thing, but there's such a huge difference between these. It's good to be intelligent when disagreeing, and not to rely on senseless memes.

 

 

A Modest Proposal

 

 

For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland

From Being Aburden to Their Parents or Country, and

For Making Them Beneficial to The Public

 

 

By Jonathan Swift (1729)

 

 

 

 

It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors, crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers, instead of being able to work for their honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in strolling to beg sustenance for their helpless infants: who as they grow up either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes.

 

I think it is agreed by all parties that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of the kingdom a very great additional grievance; and, therefore, whoever could find out a fair, cheap, and easy method of making these children sound, useful members of the commonwealth, would deserve so well of the public as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation.

 

But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the children of professed beggars; it is of a much greater extent, and shall take in the whole number of infants at a certain age who are born of parents in effect as little able to support them as those who demand our charity in the streets.

 

”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ...”

 

As to my own part, having turned my thoughts for many years upon this important subject, and maturely weighed the several schemes of other projectors, I have always found them grossly mistaken in the computation. It is true, a child just dropped from its dam may be supported by her milk for a solar year, with little other nourishment; at most not above the value of 2s., which the mother may certainly get, or the value in scraps, by her lawful occupation of begging; and it is exactly at one year old that I propose to provide for them in such a manner as instead of being a charge upon their parents or the parish, or wanting food and raiment for the rest of their lives, they shall on the contrary contribute to the feeding, and partly to the clothing, of many thousands.

 

There is likewise another great advantage in my scheme, that it will prevent those voluntary abortions, and that horrid practice of women murdering their bastard children, alas! too frequent among us! sacrificing the poor innocent babes I doubt more to avoid the expense than the shame, which would move tears and pity in the most savage and inhuman breast.

 

The number of souls in this kingdom being usually reckoned one million and a half, of these I calculate there may be about two hundred thousand couple whose wives are breeders; from which number I subtract thirty thousand couples who are able to maintain their own children, although I apprehend there cannot be so many, under the present distresses of the kingdom; but this being granted, there will remain an hundred and seventy thousand breeders. I again subtract fifty thousand for those women who miscarry, or whose children die by accident or disease within the year. There only remains one hundred and twenty thousand children of poor parents annually born. The question therefore is, how this number shall be reared and provided for, which, as I have already said, under the present situation of affairs, is utterly impossible by all the methods hitherto proposed. For we can neither employ them in handicraft or agriculture; we neither build houses (I mean in the country) nor cultivate land: they can very seldom pick up a livelihood by stealing, till they arrive at six years old, except where they are of towardly parts, although I confess they learn the rudiments much earlier, during which time, they can however be properly looked upon only as probationers, as I have been informed by a principal gentleman in the county of Cavan, who protested to me that he never knew above one or two instances under the age of six, even in a part of the kingdom so renowned for the quickest proficiency in that art.

 

I am assured by our merchants, that a boy or a girl before twelve years old is no salable commodity; and even when they come to this age they will not yield above three pounds, or three pounds and half-a-crown at most on the exchange; which cannot turn to account either to the parents or kingdom, the charge of nutriment and rags having been at least four times that value.

 

I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection.

 

I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout.

 

I do therefore humbly offer it to public consideration that of the hundred and twenty thousand children already computed, twenty thousand may be reserved for breed, whereof only one-fourth part to be males; which is more than we allow to sheep, black cattle or swine; and my reason is, that these children are seldom the fruits of marriage, a circumstance not much regarded by our savages, therefore one male will be sufficient to serve four females. That the remaining hundred thousand may, at a year old, be offered in the sale to the persons of quality and fortune through the kingdom; always advising the mother to let them suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump and fat for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends; and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter.

 

I have reckoned upon a medium that a child just born will weigh 12 pounds, and in a solar year, if tolerably nursed, increaseth to 28 pounds.

 

I grant this food will be somewhat dear, and therefore very proper for landlords, who, as they have already devoured most of the parents, seem to have the best title to the children.

 

Infant's flesh will be in season throughout the year, but more plentiful in March, and a little before and after; for we are told by a grave author, an eminent French physician, that fish being a prolific diet, there are more children born in Roman Catholic countries about nine months after Lent than at any other season; therefore, reckoning a year after Lent, the markets will be more glutted than usual, because the number of popish infants is at least three to one in this kingdom: and therefore it will have one other collateral advantage, by lessening the number of papists among us.

 

I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which list I reckon all cottagers, laborers, and four-fifths of the farmers) to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend or his own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good landlord, and grow popular among his tenants; the mother will have eight shillings net profit, and be fit for work till she produces another child.

 

Those who are more thrifty (as I must confess the times require) may flay the carcass; the skin of which artificially dressed will make admirable gloves for ladies, and summer boots for fine gentlemen.

 

As to our city of Dublin, shambles may be appointed for this purpose in the most convenient parts of it, and butchers we may be assured will not be wanting; although I rather recommend buying the children alive, and dressing them hot from the knife, as we do roasting pigs.

 

A very worthy person, a true lover of his country, and whose virtues I highly esteem, was lately pleased in discoursing on this matter to offer a refinement upon my scheme. He said that many gentlemen of this kingdom, having of late destroyed their deer, he conceived that the want of venison might be well supplied by the bodies of young lads and maidens, not exceeding fourteen years of age nor under twelve; so great a number of both sexes in every country being now ready to starve for want of work and service; and these to be disposed of by their parents, if alive, or otherwise by their nearest relations. But with due deference to so excellent a friend and so deserving a patriot, I cannot be altogether in his sentiments; for as to the males, my American acquaintance assured me, from frequent experience, that their flesh was generally tough and lean, like that of our schoolboys by continual exercise, and their taste disagreeable; and to fatten them would not answer the charge. Then as to the females, it would, I think, with humble submission be a loss to the public, because they soon would become breeders themselves; and besides, it is not improbable that some scrupulous people might be apt to censure such a practice (although indeed very unjustly), as a little bordering upon cruelty; which, I confess, hath always been with me the strongest objection against any project, however so well intended.

 

But in order to justify my friend, he confessed that this expedient was put into his head by the famous Psalmanazar, a native of the island Formosa, who came from thence to London above twenty years ago, and in conversation told my friend, that in his country when any young person happened to be put to death, the executioner sold the carcass to persons of quality as a prime dainty; and that in his time the body of a plump girl of fifteen, who was crucified for an attempt to poison the emperor, was sold to his imperial majesty's prime minister of state, and other great mandarins of the court, in joints from the gibbet, at four hundred crowns. Neither indeed can I deny, that if the same use were made of several plump young girls in this town, who without one single groat to their fortunes cannot stir abroad without a chair, and appear at playhouse and assemblies in foreign fineries which they never will pay for, the kingdom would not be the worse.

 

Some persons of a desponding spirit are in great concern about that vast number of poor people, who are aged, diseased, or maimed, and I have been desired to employ my thoughts what course may be taken to ease the nation of so grievous an encumbrance. But I am not in the least pain upon that matter, because it is very well known that they are every day dying and rotting by cold and famine, and filth and vermin, as fast as can be reasonably expected. And as to the young laborers, they are now in as hopeful a condition; they cannot get work, and consequently pine away for want of nourishment, to a degree that if at any time they are accidentally hired to common labor, they have not strength to perform it; and thus the country and themselves are happily delivered from the evils to come.

 

I have too long digressed, and therefore shall return to my subject. I think the advantages by the proposal which I have made are obvious and many, as well as of the highest importance.

 

For first, as I have already observed, it would greatly lessen the number of papists, with whom we are yearly overrun, being the principal breeders of the nation as well as our most dangerous enemies; and who stay at home on purpose with a design to deliver the kingdom to the Pretender, hoping to take their advantage by the absence of so many good protestants, who have chosen rather to leave their country than stay at home and pay tithes against their conscience to an episcopal curate.

 

Secondly, The poorer tenants will have something valuable of their own, which by law may be made liable to distress and help to pay their landlord's rent, their corn and cattle being already seized, and money a thing unknown.

 

Thirdly, Whereas the maintenance of an hundred thousand children, from two years old and upward, cannot be computed at less than ten shillings a-piece per annum, the nation's stock will be thereby increased fifty thousand pounds per annum, beside the profit of a new dish introduced to the tables of all gentlemen of fortune in the kingdom who have any refinement in taste. And the money will circulate among ourselves, the goods being entirely of our own growth and manufacture.

 

Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year.

 

Fifthly, This food would likewise bring great custom to taverns; where the vintners will certainly be so prudent as to procure the best receipts for dressing it to perfection, and consequently have their houses frequented by all the fine gentlemen, who justly value themselves upon their knowledge in good eating: and a skilful cook, who understands how to oblige his guests, will contrive to make it as expensive as they please.

 

Sixthly, This would be a great inducement to marriage, which all wise nations have either encouraged by rewards or enforced by laws and penalties. It would increase the care and tenderness of mothers toward their children, when they were sure of a settlement for life to the poor babes, provided in some sort by the public, to their annual profit instead of expense. We should see an honest emulation among the married women, which of them could bring the fattest child to the market. Men would become as fond of their wives during the time of their pregnancy as they are now of their mares in foal, their cows in calf, their sows when they are ready to farrow; nor offer to beat or kick them (as is too frequent a practice) for fear of a miscarriage.

 

Many other advantages might be enumerated. For instance, the addition of some thousand carcasses in our exportation of barreled beef, the propagation of swine's flesh, and improvement in the art of making good bacon, so much wanted among us by the great destruction of pigs, too frequent at our tables; which are no way comparable in taste or magnificence to a well-grown, fat, yearling child, which roasted whole will make a considerable figure at a lord mayor's feast or any other public entertainment. But this and many others I omit, being studious of brevity.

 

Supposing that one thousand families in this city, would be constant customers for infants flesh, besides others who might have it at merry meetings, particularly at weddings and christenings, I compute that Dublin would take off annually about twenty thousand carcasses; and the rest of the kingdom (where probably they will be sold somewhat cheaper) the remaining eighty thousand.

 

I can think of no one objection, that will possibly be raised against this proposal, unless it should be urged, that the number of people will be thereby much lessened in the kingdom. This I freely own, and 'twas indeed one principal design in offering it to the world. I desire the reader will observe, that I calculate my remedy for this one individual Kingdom of Ireland, and for no other that ever was, is, or, I think, ever can be upon Earth. Therefore let no man talk to me of other expedients: Of taxing our absentees at five shillings a pound: Of using neither cloaths, nor houshold furniture, except what is of our own growth and manufacture: Of utterly rejecting the materials and instruments that promote foreign luxury: Of curing the expensiveness of pride, vanity, idleness, and gaming in our women: Of introducing a vein of parsimony, prudence and temperance: Of learning to love our country, wherein we differ even from Laplanders, and the inhabitants of Topinamboo: Of quitting our animosities and factions, nor acting any longer like the Jews, who were murdering one another at the very moment their city was taken: Of being a little cautious not to sell our country and consciences for nothing: Of teaching landlords to have at least one degree of mercy towards their tenants. Lastly, of putting a spirit of honesty, industry, and skill into our shop-keepers, who, if a resolution could now be taken to buy only our native goods, would immediately unite to cheat and exact upon us in the price, the measure, and the goodness, nor could ever yet be brought to make one fair proposal of just dealing, though often and earnestly invited to it.

 

Therefore I repeat, let no man talk to me of these and the like expedients, 'till he hath at least some glympse of hope, that there will ever be some hearty and sincere attempt to put them into practice.

 

But, as to my self, having been wearied out for many years with offering vain, idle, visionary thoughts, and at length utterly despairing of success, I fortunately fell upon this proposal, which, as it is wholly new, so it hath something solid and real, of no expence and little trouble, full in our own power, and whereby we can incur no danger in disobliging England. For this kind of commodity will not bear exportation, and flesh being of too tender a consistence, to admit a long continuance in salt, although perhaps I could name a country, which would be glad to eat up our whole nation without it.

 

After all, I am not so violently bent upon my own opinion as to reject any offer proposed by wise men, which shall be found equally innocent, cheap, easy, and effectual. But before something of that kind shall be advanced in contradiction to my scheme, and offering a better, I desire the author or authors will be pleased maturely to consider two points. First, as things now stand, how they will be able to find food and raiment for an hundred thousand useless mouths and backs. And secondly, there being a round million of creatures in human figure throughout this kingdom, whose whole subsistence put into a common stock would leave them in debt two millions of pounds sterling, adding those who are beggars by profession to the bulk of farmers, cottagers, and laborers, with their wives and children who are beggars in effect: I desire those politicians who dislike my overture, and may perhaps be so bold as to attempt an answer, that they will first ask the parents of these mortals, whether they would not at this day think it a great happiness to have been sold for food, at a year old in the manner I prescribe, and thereby have avoided such a perpetual scene of misfortunes as they have since gone through by the oppression of landlords, the impossibility of paying rent without money or trade, the want of common sustenance, with neither house nor clothes to cover them from the inclemencies of the weather, and the most inevitable prospect of entailing the like or greater miseries upon their breed for ever.

 

I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich. I have no children by which I can propose to get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past child-bearing.

 

The End

 

Note: Jonathan Swift (1667-1745), author and satirist, famous for Gulliver's Travels (1726) and A Modest Proposal (1729). This proposal, where he suggests that the Irish eat their own children, is one of his most drastic pieces. He devoted much of his writing to the struggle for Ireland against the English hegemony.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Not that I'm for it...but targeted strikes are a whole lot different from chemical weapons used against civilians.

 

Just like signing the Monsanto Protection Act is a whole lot different from the Syrian chemical weapon attack. It's not a good thing, but there's such a huge difference between these. It's good to be intelligent when disagreeing, and not to rely on senseless memes.

If we wanted to help the poor, oppressed people of any country it's not like we couldn't.

 

People think in terms of money when they think of wealth, but real wealth comes from intelligence, energy and raw resources, it is the process by which we use intelligence and energy to extract and transform raw resources into material goods.

 

We've known that we have an unlimited (totally safe) source of energy since the 60's and that we could use this source of energy to make synthetic liquid fuels on par with gasoline, synthetic ammonia, and diesel replacements too, all cheaper than we can by sucking it out of the ground.

 

None of this is theoretical, and with unlimited energy there would be no need for poverty as long as we recycled our waste and kept our global population within the limits of our renewable or recyclable resources.

 

Rather than do this though, we will go to war to fight for a commodity we could synthetically make cheaper than we could steal.

Edited September 1, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Aetherous]

I agree with that in theory. Although, I'm not convinced our Middle East efforts are all about oil. I'm interested to learn more about that.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I agree with that in theory. Although, I'm not convinced our Middle East efforts are all about oil. I'm interested to learn more about that.

It's about maintaining the US dollar as the currency all oil is traded in globally, if this stops the US dollar will lose 100% of it's value, and our empire ends.

 

It's coming to a head soon.

[Aetherous]

Sources?

[Marblehead]

Oh!, I have my sources, said the NSA man.

[Uroboros]

Sources?

 

You could take a look at the current state of the worlds economy and the political moves the US has made in the last 15 years. All the sources we need our all around us.

 

Theories are great! Can you see the effects, the threads, of it in the world? If so, then there may be something there. If not, then it still may be correct, just subtle. Or its not so correct.

 

The vids I posted go into this stuff in a WAY more accurate and intelligent manner then I could, atm.. Heres another one to help tie the pieces!

 

 

Of course, this is just one possibility that seems likely to me. I can watch these videos and see the connections between what they are saying and what is happening.

 

Tis interesting to read/ listen to someone talk about the why's and how's and then, months later, see those moves they thought might happen, happen.

 

Peace.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Sources?

 

 

In case you don't wish to watch the video above.

 

 

The US dollar is a Fiat Currency given value only by the US Military and the fact it is used as the reserve currency to trade oil globally.

 

After Nixon ended the gold standard in 1971, he brokered deals with every opec nation offering military protection so long as they continued to trade oil only in us dollars. By 1975 every opec nation was a part of this agreement.

 

From 1975+ you needed federal reserve notes to purchase oil, which has allowed the USA to print as much money as they desired and the rest of the world still had to use it. This system only works so long all opec countries trade exclusively in us dollars.

 

This is called the petrodollar status and is what prevents hyperinflation when we print money. Imagine writing as many bad checks as you want and forcing all your friends and family to pay for them.

 

As long as we are able to use our military to maintain the status quo of the petrodollar this system can continue.

 

http://hg.scimth.net/2012/02/07/petrodollar-iran/

 

http://ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/oil-boycott.html

 

 

 

 

 

Iraq bucked the system in 2000, by deciding to sell their oil in euros.

 

 

 

U.N. to let Iraq sell oil for euros, not dollars October 30, 2000

 

 

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20130829080041/http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/30/iraq.un.euro.reut/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Libya tried to pull most of Africa off of the US dollar.

 

 

According to a Russian article titled 'Bombing of Libya – Punishment for Gaddafi for His Attempt to Refuse US Dollar', Gaddafi made a similarly bold move: he initiated a movement to refuse the dollar and the euro, and called on Arab and African nations to use a new currency instead, the gold dinar. Gaddafi suggested establishing a united African continent, with its 200 million people using this single currency.

 

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/21/libya-muammar-gaddafi

 

 

Iran has long been pushing to trade in other currencies:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse

 

http://rense.com/general80/topple.htm

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodities/9077600/Iran-presses-ahead-with-dollar-attack.html

 

 

 

Last week, the Tehran Times noted that the Iranian oil bourse will start trading oil in currencies other than the dollar from March 20.

Edited September 2, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Aetherous]

Thanks MPG and Uroboros!

Edited September 2, 2013 by turtle shell

[xor]

Depressing... either a completely pointless WW3 or another Vietnam war.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Guest

[Marblehead]

I saw in the news this morning that Russia is sending diplomats to Washington to petition Congress to not authorize a strike against Syria.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I saw in the news this morning that Russia is sending diplomats to Washington to petition Congress to not authorize a strike against Syria.

[Basher]

Oh!, I have my sources, said the NSA man.

 

NSA = Nefarious Source Association ?

 

Question: If at the very beginning we knew, for a fact, about Hitlers persecution of the Jews. Would we all have stood back & just watched it happen ?

 

War/Military Intervention should always be the very last option. As historically, too many innocents get caught up amongst all the death & destruction.

 

The Syrian Rebels appear to want / need Food, Water, Clothing & a safe Shelter.

According to the UN Inspectors, it's now been proved that only the Syrian Regime could have launched the attack.

 

Threats & Intimidation haven't worked on Assad, he's called the Americans Bluff.

He isn't interested in any sort of Diplomatic solution.

And has made it quite clear that his forces will take revenge against any country that interferes with his internal dispute.

 

So what options are left ?

 

Stay out of it & let the Regime destroy all those in its path.

 

Or do a targeted strike at the Chemical Works / army Barracks & wait for their counter-strikes ?

 

There is no Easy option.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

 

Question: If at the very beginning we knew, for a fact, about Hitlers persecution of the Jews. Would we all have stood back & just watched it happen ?

Yes you probably would have. Just as we have permanently imprisoned and continuously torture men for whom we have zero evidence of wrong doing. I am sure things are much much much worse than our media allows us to see.

 

The Germans themselves thought nothing of all the wars and actions of their government, from their perspective it was all just normal.

 

Just as what we are doing right now just seems "normal".

 

 

 

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

 

 

 

An excerpt from:

 

They Thought They Were Free

The Germans, 1933-45

Milton Mayer

 

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

 

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

 

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

 

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. ‘One had no time to think. There was so much going on.’"

"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your ‘little men,’ your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ‘national enemies,’ without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

 

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it—please try to believe me—unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

 

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your ‘little men,’ your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something—but then it was too late."

 

"Yes," I said.

 

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

 

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’

 

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

 

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to—to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

 

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

 

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

 

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

 

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven’t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

 

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or ‘adjust’ your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know."

 

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

 

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn’t an anti-Nazi. He was just—a judge. In ’42 or ’43, early ’43, I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an ‘Aryan’ woman. This was ‘race injury,’ something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case at bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a ‘nonracial’ offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party ‘processing’ which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the ‘nonracial’ charge, in the judge’s opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom."

 

"And the judge?"

 

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience—a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That’s how I heard about it.) After the ’44 Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don’t know."

 

I said nothing.

 

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was ‘defeatism.’ You assumed that there were lists of those who would be ‘dealt with’ later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a ‘victory orgy’ to ‘take care of’ those who thought that their ‘treasonable attitude’ had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

 

"Once the war began, the government could do anything ‘necessary’ to win it; so it was with the ‘final solution of the Jewish problem,’ which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its ‘necessities’ gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany’s losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."

Edited September 3, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Rara]

Looks like here in the UK, our PM is having a bit of difficulty getting his way. Finally, a slight improvement in our "democracy". Let's see where this goes....

[Thunder_Gooch]

So what options are left ?

 

 

We imprison people for their entire lives, deny them access to a lawyer or fair trial, and torture them daily until they are left broken husks of human beings.

 

We aren't interested in helping anyone, that's just how they spin the war to sell it to you.

 

We aren't in Syria to help anyone but ourselves and our interests. We only act when we stand to profit from controlling some countries natural resources. Don't kid yourself.

 

Russia is backing Iran and Syria for the same reason we want to go to war with them, control of their oil resources.

Edited September 3, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Marblehead]

Hitting the chemical storage facilities would cause gross killing of innocents. We have to stay away from them or make a ground intrusion and take control of them.

 

Regarding Hitler and the Nazis, nothing would have been said if they ould have stopped after regaining those parts of Germany that were taken from them after WW1. But they got greedy because nothing had been said up to that point, not even anything was said about the killing of the Jews. That was sad.

 

In Syria, the West is feeding what we consider the devil regardless of which side we take. Of course, it's all about oil but the actual problem in Syria is a Syrian problem.

 

No one in power wants to ever give up their power. Assad is no different from the others in recent times. The biggest problem the West has is that Assad is supported by Russia. We wouldn't want Russia to be getting more control of the oil flowing out of the Middle East now would we? But it really wouldn't make much difference who controlled it. The greed factor works just the same. And the holder must sell or what they have control of is worthless.

 

We (the West) screwed up by destabalizing the Middle East by going into Iraq. And we are continuing to screw up and further destabalize the entire area.

Looks like here in the UK, our PM is having a bit of difficulty getting his way. Finally, a slight improvement in our "democracy". Let's see where this goes....

Yes, credit must be given where credit is due.

[Rara]

It's not much but at least we haven't gone all Iraq/Afghanistan on their arses...so the decency has picked up slightly! Every little bit counts towards reform

[Thunder_Gooch]

It's not much but at least we haven't gone all Iraq/Afghanistan on their arses...so the decency has picked up slightly! Every little bit counts towards reform

We don't want to go to war unless we have to do so, if we can intimidate them into being submissive to our will that will serve the same purpose.

 

Picture this, we are a street thug and want someone's money, we don't want to have to bust a cap in there *** to get it unless we have to, as long as they hand over their wallet and walk away no one gets hurt.

Edited September 3, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Basher]

Successive UK Governments have down-sized the Military budget*** so much, and wasted so much money on redundant or unsuitable kit, that we're no longer able to defend the Isle of Wight, let alone the rest of the UK.

 

Result being that we're also no longer able to wade in "Gung-Ho" to Police the rest of the world (or the British Empire as we used to call it).

 

Bit depressing that the UK cannot now start & win a War.... unless we pick on someplace like Iceland

 

If the Tribesmen in the Amazon basin have better weapons than you, it's time to give Peace a chance.

 

 

 

*** Obviously the Politicians "expenses" must be paid for somehow.

 

 

(PS: All of the above should be read after inserting your tongue in your cheek. NO, Your cheek I said )

[Marblehead]

Bit depressing that the UK cannot now start & win a War.... unless we pick on someplace like Iceland

Funny you mentioned this as it caused me to think back when the British were defending the Falklands and your Navy couldn't even find the enemy and had to rely on American intelligence in order to find and then engage.

[Basher]

Funny you mentioned this as it caused me to think back when the British were defending the Falklands and your Navy couldn't even find the enemy and had to rely on American intelligence in order to find and then engage.

 

LOL.

Didn't know that MH.

 

Wasn't the "General Belgrano" one of the ex US Navy Ships from WWII (Pearl Harbour) ?

[gendao]

Official stories and rumors keep swirling and changing.. The latest alleged evidence for another US false flag are some incriminating (alleged) hakt emails:

August 22 Eugene Furst congratulates Col. on successful operation and refers him to Wasington Post publication about chemical attack in Syria.

 

Pentagon may be involved in chemical attack in Syria, US intelligence colonel hacked mail reflect

 

Hacker got access to U.S. intelligence correspondence and published U.S. Army Col. ANTHONY J. MACDONALD’s mail. Macdonald is General Staff Director, Operations and Plans Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence the Army Staff. It’s about chemical attack in Syria.

In the message August 22 Eugene Furst congratulates Col. on successful operation and refers him to Wasington Post publication about chemical attack in Syria. From the Anthony’s wife dialog with her friend it’s clear the video with the children killed in the chemical attack near Damascus was staged by U.S. Intelligence.

"I saw it either and got afraid very much. But Tony comforted me. He said the kids weren't hurt, it was done for cameras. So you don't worry, my dear," - Jennifer MacDonald (US Intel Commander’s wife), 8/25/2013

 

"You see, I'm still thinking about those Syrian kids. Thanks God, they are alive. I hope they got a kind of present or some cash." - Mary Shapiro

???

Edited September 3, 2013 by vortex