Is it as you say, Pat? Does all come from within?

[sunshine]

My whole point is that these things he and his teacher are claiming to offer only come from within ourselves. To try to sell them back to us is fooling those of us who are desperate to acchieve higher planes of consciousness... Each of us has our own path to find. That is the deal. What they offer is yours already, it can not be bought and sold. The realities of awakening our minds must be worked for and acchieved.

 

[Please guys. Don't start the flaming all over again...] what is been quoted above is interesting to discuss in a serious manner.

 

Pat. I wholeheartedly agree with you that "each of us has our own path to find"... BUT: were do you take the absolute conviction from that "everything claimed ONLY comes from within" and the other possibility is BS???

 

I mean: hasn't this been a discussion in history so far and due to modern developments even more, having these two oppositie believes [one that everything can only be found within, the other that it all can be only found outside]??? But as far as I get it NOONE has so far given a complete and completely logical answer to this contradictiory points of view!!!

 

AND: EVEN IF you are right and there IS actually everything to be found within, there is still the question to ask if most of us are able to find it/have access to it, WITHOUT the guidance of a teacher (and her/his practices)...

 

on the other hand: if we accept modern claims that we all are connected by some kind of Zero Point Energy and in our most basic essence are one and the same, the the discussion about me & them is of no use at all, as there is neither me nor you in the usual sense...

 

just some thoughts

 

Harry

[Pero]

You can't find enlightenment anywhere else but in yourself. However, this usually wont come by itself. So you need someone to show you a path. Just by doing nothing, that is exactly what you'll get, nothing. No one buys enlightenment, but you can "pay" for being taught. This is how it is. Before students had to endure all kinds of hardships, now there is money for which people have to work.

[Wayfarer64]

I will do my damndest not to bring that other thread into this...My point was only about the apparent comoditization of the process. It is a trend that I find worrisome -the point made that now the currency of discipline is money I think is probably true; and I guess that is the crux of the problem for me.

 

That we are willing to deligate the responsibilities of becoming our better-selves to others with a system that they believe will help us - and indeed make us- become that which we hope to be. By paying for the knowledge granted through efforts that they made. It is the exact same problem I have with a basic belief of Catholocism -that we can have faith in Jesus who died for our sins -confess those sins on a weekly basis and be the better person that never did the sin in the first place - just through a system of prayerful penance and indulgences. Paying to absolve ourselves and thus become who we wish to be, through the giving up of some money and very little time-None of which (time wise) is on-going and sustained.

 

I believe that the process of any spiritual attainment can only be accomplished from within ourselves. I of course realize that the great spiritual teachers throughout the ages have pointed "the way" and have saved many lives from much grief. I hope in all of my being that the many people teaching others any of their various paths; that are being discussed on this forum. will help those who come to them.

 

I have expressed my doubts about several systems and gurus and teachers here. Only one of which has created a furvor of vitriolic mayhem between myself and others. I began my sojourn on this forum with an account of my inter-action with the Guru maharaji's system some 30 years ago, my meeting the Dalai Lama and other esoteric events of my experience.

 

Questioning authority is a very old habit with me. It is one reason that many of my teachers have become annoyed with me -I need to see some proofs of their authority when they makes claims that do not ring true in my ears. I have very little blind faith to offer any more, save for what I have found to be true within my own being.

 

When I read and hear things that sound false to me or carry emotional impacts that belie the words. I need to speak up and say a sort of -BUT NOOOOO!?!

 

All that being said -I do agree that a real adept, a master, a sifu is an incredable aid to anyone's progress towards spiritual satisfaction. And I am with Michael Lerner on that -there are levels of spiritual attainment that offer total peace of mind and are not some high-falootin level-conscious quest for "immortality".

 

Satisfaction and peace of mind are far more readily attainable if we just let ourselves stop trying so hard to attain some quantitative "level" of spiritual being.

 

The level game of mystical prowess and spirituality in itself rings many a false note for me. I guess it comes down/up to what is it we wish to attain through these efforts? That is probably very different for each of us.

So it may be a very huge fault of my own to question the validity of any system when it may serve to help some someones to find peace...

I hope at some point I am able to get past these issues and let it be ...

[gendao]

I think ideally you want a good balance between self-discovery and experienced guidance. Isn't this true in most disciplines and skills in life?

 

But I would agree with perhaps your sentiment that people may tend to rely upon gurus too much. I've noticed that those who follow the finger instead of the moon never get that far in the end.

 

I think you must still find your own way, with teachers as signposts and teachings as verification.

[sunshine]

I will do my damndest not to bring that other thread into this...

 

Wasn't my intent for sure

 

Thank you Pat, for giving your thoughts on the subject. I have been through the issue of "faith" many times and have lost the "blind faith" aspect on the road... by the way: I am pretty thankful for these experiences as they helped me become clearly more free!

 

Your thoughts on Catholicism resonant very true with me. To me the trouble is when people start to believe they just need to invest time for asking for absolution, without the need for having to work on themselves. This has nothing to do with money though...

 

I believe that the process of any spiritual attainment can only be accomplished from within ourselves.

 

I am not sure if I get you right here: do you say that if I sit down long enough and look into myself I will arrive at the core of the truth?

 

If you say that the question is to ask: what if I look the wrong way?

 

Isn't that what a teacher is for? To offer you a way for reaching a destination others already reached long before you yourself, so that by their effort you now have the possibility to follow their steps to arrive more quickly?

 

And I am with Michael Lerner on that -there are levels of spiritual attainment that offer total peace of mind and are not some high-falootin level-conscious quest for "immortality".

 

Recently I was asked by another member what more there can be than reaching "peace of mind". I have no idea, but I assume that peace of mind is not the end of the road...

 

Satisfaction and peace of mind are far more readily attainable if we just let ourselves stop trying so hard to attain some quantitative "level" of spiritual being.

 

No doubt. And if I get it right many teachers actually will say that attaining peace of mind is one of the necessary and most basic steps for further attainment...

 

appreaciate your reflections on the topic

 

 

and "Pero":

You can't find enlightenment anywhere else but in yourself.

 

I am not yet fully sure...

 

 

Harry

[freeform]

This is interesting.

 

In fact the one problem I have with David's system is that you anchor yourself to the master to such an extent... or at least that's the impression I got from his essays...

 

What I mean by 'anchor yourself' is when you search for the truth, instead of going to the deepest core of You, you're meant to go to your master... So this becomes an inside - outside sort of game - do you search for the Truth inside or in your master...

 

It really doesn't resonate with me (on quite a profound level) to search for the truth in someone else...

 

yet I still believe that one needs a teacher or master to progress - but with a key difference in relationship:

 

so in terms of 'truth' - you look into yourself and find the truth and then ask your master "is that the truth?" - the master answers "no look deeper"... so you look deeper and you reach the deepest point and embody the truth and you ask again "is that the truth?" - "no look deeper" - and so on...

 

I believe you need another person to act as feedback for you otherwise you can get lost in your own illusions - this is the kind of teaching I learn from Jerry Stocking... it's a constant dance - you dance with another and see yourself reflected in them and notice the bits that you wouldn't have noticed by yourself...

 

mind you - the other person doesn't necessarily need to be a master - especially early on in the game... kids can reflect back (sometimes) better than adults...

[gendao]

Well also don't forget - let's not get too stuck in this paradigm of "in me" vs "out of me" or "myself" vs "not myself."

 

If we are ultimately all connected as one, then everything is really "in me."

 

Although until we achieve enlightenment and really unite with everything, our current paradigm is still probably a better approximation for the time being.

[freeform]

If we are ultimately all connected as one, then everything is really "in me."

 

This is ungrounded in my oppinion... if I pour a glass of water on you - you get wet, I dont...

 

I know deeper down there is an implicit connection, but that's deeper down not here on the surface... I know some people can be deeper down and on the surface and higher up at the same time - but I cant, so it wouldn't serve me to talk of that...

[gendao]

This is ungrounded in my oppinion... if I pour a glass of water on you - you get wet, I dont...

 

I know deeper down there is an implicit connection, but that's deeper down not here on the surface... I know some people can be deeper down and on the surface and higher up at the same time - but I cant, so it wouldn't serve me to talk of that...

Well, like I said, until we reallly transcend that dualistic paradigm via "enlightenment," it's more theoretical than applicable.

 

Kinda like how we still use Newtonian physics for most science and engineering calculations - even though we know relativistic physics is technically more accurate. But for our purposes, Newtonian physics suffices and is far easier to apply.

 

So sure, focus inside...but don't just strictly LIMIT yourself to JUST THAT as some ironclad rule. Or at least that's my opinion...

Edited May 11, 2007 by vortex

[freeform]

So sure, focus inside...but don't just strictly LIMIT yourself to JUST THAT as some ironclad rule.

 

thanks Vortex - I get what you mean. and I agree

[sunshine]

>>>This is interesting. In fact the one problem I have with David's system is that you anchor yourself to the master to such an extent... or at least that's the impression I got from his essays... What I mean by 'anchor yourself' is when you search for the truth, instead of going to the deepest core of You, you're meant to go to your master... So this becomes an inside - outside sort of game - do you search for the Truth inside or in your master... It really doesn't resonate with me (on quite a profound level) to search for the truth in someone else... so in terms of 'truth' - you look into yourself and find the truth and then ask your master "is that the truth?" - the master answers "no look deeper"... so you look deeper and you reach the deepest point and embody the truth and you ask again "is that the truth?" - "no look deeper" - and so on... I believe you need another person to act as feedback for you otherwise you can get lost in your own illusions - this is the kind of teaching I learn from Jerry Stocking... it's a constant dance - you dance with another and see yourself reflected in them and notice the bits that you wouldn't have noticed by yourself..<<<

 

Okay then. But if one goes to a friend, as a little child to a parent, as a student in school to a teacher:

Who actually expects them to say: look deeper? The answer is in yourself!

 

And who actually does that?

 

If I go to martial arts training I don't expect the teacher to say:

 

"Come' on, man. The truth is in yourself. If you go inside and dig deep enough THEN you will know how the proper techniques to address your oponent. If you just dig deep enough inside yourself the truth about Dim Mak will be revealed to you... and if you find some truth drop by and I then tell you if you found it or not... go and look inside"

 

Please don't get me wrong. It might come across as making fun of you, but I don't!

 

>>mind you - the other person doesn't necessarily need to be a master - especially early on in the game... kids can reflect back (sometimes) better than adults...<<

 

This is a deep truth probably noone can deny

 

Harry

Edited May 11, 2007 by sunshine

[Pero]

[gendao]

And who actually does that?

Well, Bob Cooley did and thus "invented" resistance stretching!

 

After which he used yogic asanas and TCM meridian theory to verify his independent findings.

 

Oops, bad example...or is that a good one?

 

 

 

 

But think about that - you had millions of yoga students following gurus...and yet none of them (I don't think) had figured out that you're supposed to contract, not relax, the muscles being stretched. Why? Because they were following the finger, not the moon. And that very slight, subtle distinction can make all the difference in the world.

[Wayfarer64]

Now we're getting somewhere...

All of these ideas of inner-space outer space and the oneness of both in what we can call anything from the Tao to Quantum mechanics... whatever we wish to call a place of oneness of mind spirit matter , a place where what we think of as real may in fact become manifest on the plane of existance we call real...Through our belief and thinking. This is profoundly exciting and disconcerting also.

 

It makes us each totally responsible for our own realities.

 

Most of these ideas are suppositions because the experiments have not been devised to satisfy the scientist in me, but I do believe that the most profound knowledge of my own existance can only be understood through getting in touch with that devine spark that is within me. That which unites me to the essence of this universe that which I hear tell some folks call the Tao...

 

So I went with that idea many years ago and been with teachers and alone and giving it up and returning to the quest in ernest...The razors' edge is well honed ...

 

Seeking the truth of these matters is no picnic at times. A good teacher is a great aid, but I don't think a teacher can do much more than point us to where we need to go from his/her own viewpoint. That can not be otherwise - From Mohammed to Jesus, the Buddha and Laotzu ANY teacher , sage guru, sifu, has or had individual viewpoints are they all would have said the exact same thing!

 

So it seems to me it is up to us to find our own ways within ourselves.

Edited May 11, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[DentyDao]

Edited May 12, 2007 by seandenty

[gendao]

David has spent time in old Europe with Orthodox Christian mystics that make some of his masters in China look like beginners.

Great post, Sean!

 

This quote caught my eye, though. After hearing stories of Wang Liping walking through walls and "daylight ascensions," you're saying that there are Orthodox Christian mystics who make these feats look like child's play?

 

 

Um, could you elaborate? What exact Christian traditions are these guys practicing and what have they achieved in comparison? And why isn't David discipling under them instead of WLP then?

Edited May 11, 2007 by vortex

[sunshine]

Great post, Sean!

 

While it is a great post, it was not so much intended as a thread on David but taken more general.

 

>>From Mohammed to Jesus, the Buddha and Laotzu ANY teacher , sage guru, sifu, has or had individual viewpoints are they all would have said the exact same thing!<<

 

Pat. It would be great if you could chime in over at the foundation forum and have a look on the recent thread:

 

"Quantum Physics & cultivation in a holographic world"

 

in a way I am touching that topic and in there might be a possible answer...

 

 

Harry

[Pero]

Well, he did say some, not all.

And WLP is supposed to be enlightened. Having powers doesn`t neccessarily means you`re enlightened. And it`s not about powers remember?

 

I`m interested in hearing more about these Christian Traditions too.

[DentyDao]

Great post, Sean!

 

This quote caught my eye, though. After hearing stories of Wang Liping walking through walls and "daylight ascensions," you're saying that there are Orthodox Christian mystics who make these feats look like child's play?

 

 

Um, could you elaborate? What exact Christian traditions are these guys practicing and what have they achieved in comparison? And why isn't David discipling under them instead of WLP then?

 

 

Great questions. The story david told us about the old priest, actually tow diffrent guys, was amazing. One of them was a hermit living somewher near the Ukrane. Went David would go to visit him and listen to him answer question for the local villagers, the old man would become so full with divin he would levitate about three feet. Often totally unaware of it. David was in shocked and asked hi what kind of meditation he was doing and what techniques, etc... the saint just laaughed at his and replied that no such nonsense was the case. He just explained that when your heart is filled with the lord you become 'light' literally. We are all made up of light, I think any way.

 

The second story was of a man who, a priest actually, who was probaly a Buddha, but is know passed away. David believed he was on a par with people like Wang Liping who can duplicate his body.

 

Actually David does still teach the principles of the Christian Mystics, the real saints who undersatnd the teachings of Jesus without all the BS. He has a very strong Christian faith himself and often speaks of the holy spirit with great emotion, as does John Chang who's favorit advice is to pray to the lord daily with joy in your heart and tears in your eyes. Some of these Daoists are real Christian Mystics as well you know. I'm not kidding and David really does ask his students to pray every day and I do, simple bastard that I am.

[gendao]

Great questions. The story david told us about the old priest, actually tow diffrent guys, was amazing. One of them was a hermit living somewher near the Ukrane. Went David would go to visit him and listen to him answer question for the local villagers, the old man would become so full with divin he would levitate about three feet. Often totally unaware of it. David was in shocked and asked hi what kind of meditation he was doing and what techniques, etc... the saint just laaughed at his and replied that no such nonsense was the case. He just explained that when your heart is filled with the lord you become 'light' literally. We are all made up of light, I think any way.

 

The second story was of a man who, a priest actually, who was probaly a Buddha, but is know passed away. David believed he was on a par with people like Wang Liping who can duplicate his body.

 

Actually David does still teach the principles of the Christian Mystics, the real saints who undersatnd the teachings of Jesus without all the BS. He has a very strong Christian faith himself and often speaks of the holy spirit with great emotion, as does John Chang who's favorit advice is to pray to the lord daily with joy in your heart and tears in your eyes. Some of these Daoists are real Christian Mystics as well you know. I'm not kidding and David really does ask his students to pray every day and I do, simple bastard that I am.

That is very interesting, would be proof-positive that there are many ways to enlightenment.

 

Now, is Wang Liping Christian too?

 

I've been rather shocked to learn that quite a few high-level Chinese masters in Taoism or Taijiquan are actually Christian.

 

Although, I'm curious as to what their definition of Christianity is? Do they really believe Jesus was the "son of god" who died for our sins and is the only way to "salvation?" I mean, from what I read from John Chang's book - he believed that "Heaven" was a white wave and "Hell" a black wave after death - but Hell was only temporary anyways. And if you become enlightened, do you even have to worry about going to "Heave" or Hell," or even need a "savior?" Or if you have a savior, do you need to become enlightened? So, what's the real paradigm here?

 

Or do they simply take it more as a generic deism - and simply pray to "God?" If so, what is their definition of "God?" A "Pan Gu" type creator or the "Tao?"

 

Perhaps this should be its own thread and a question to David - what their interpretation of Christianity is and how does it relate to Taoism? Compare and contrast the 2 paradigms?

Edited May 11, 2007 by vortex

[Yen Hui]

Now, this thread is more like it. Thank you Heaven! I would contribute but I'm running off to see David Copperfield. Cheers ~

[DentyDao]

Let me just say this. When we develop wisdom, what might appear dogmatic, "Jesus was the son of God" becomes a metaphor for a deeper reality. The idea that we are all potential sons and daugthers of God or Dao is very true. At the same time, we need to be humble enough to except that the idea that eden or the garden or heaven or whatever is not "this" current condition, but also a story that reflects a deeper reality. I believe we have to seek it to find it, and part of what makes it so worth while is the fact that it is so challenging.

 

Anyway, great discussion. I'm glad to have cleared the air with Pat. We have been communicating privately and come to, I think, a clearer understanding. I may not respect his opinions, but I respect him as a human being and his belief that we all have our own way and no one way is better or worse, just different with different results. That should have been my answer from the beginning, but we can't see all things.

 

The issue of Traditional Daoist cultivation vs. western views on the subject, could have and should be a seperate issue. Here to me there are some clear misunderstandings that hopefully will come to light over the years, but again, this is a discussion on a seperate issue.

 

S

[Wayfarer64]

Sean PLEASE- As I wrote in my last PM to you- once again (oh god save me) I was not refering to you in particular any more than myself or anyone else... I was refering to Bush himself. Period...those who claim a higher authority of any ilk, myself encluded- (if I exhibit the hubris of such mind-sets at times) should be held in suspicion. That is only my opinion. It was not meant as a reflection on you per se.

 

It reminds me of a time when Bob Dylan was recording an album at Power Station studios where I hung out in the late 70's early 80's. One of the techies asked him about his religious album he had worked on a while before, the one with you gotta serve somebody... The techie asked about Dylans' earlier line that he would become his own enemy the moment he began to preach...

Dylan replied that he did it to get next to a woman that he was nuts for... Anything for the female essence we men crave so deeply...Or whatever "reason" we may have... I hold with Dylans' first original idea that preaching creates enemies...at least sometimes.

 

So, Sean, Please stop assuming everything -or for that matter anything I write is directed towards you.

If anything any of us write here makes you feel as if it reflects on you... well then that is within you... so just reflect on that as if it were a mirror within you.

 

It may just be an image you are projecting yourself. I have no idea.

As I have been I shall continue to do-Hence forth if I am directing anything to you I shall use the PM as I promised.

Now can we please get away from your and my issues Just send a PM without putting it on the board.

[DentyDao]

Sean PLEASE- As I wrote in my last PM to you- once again (oh god save me) I was not refering to you in particular any more than myself or anyone else... I was refering to Bush himself. Period...those who claim a higher authority of any ilk, myself encluded- (if I exhibit the hubris of such mind-sets at times) should be held in suspicion. That is only my opinion. It was not meant as a reflection on you per se.

 

It reminds me of a time when Bob Dylan was recording an album at Power Station studios where I hung out in the late 70's early 80's. One of the techies asked him about his religious album he had worked on a while before, the one with you gotta serve somebody... The techie asked about Dylans' earlier line that he would become his own enemy the moment he began to preach...

Dylan replied that he did it to get next to a woman that he was nuts for... Anything for the female essence we men crave so deeply...Or whatever "reason" we may have... I hold with Dylans' first original idea that preaching creates enemies...at least sometimes.

 

So, Sean, Please stop assuming everything -or for that matter anything I write is directed towards you.

If anything any of us write here makes you feel as if it reflects on you... well then that is within you... so just reflect on that as if it were a mirror within you.

 

It may just be an image you are projecting yourself. I have no idea.

As I have been I shall continue to do-Hence forth if I am directing anything to you I shall use the PM as I promised.

Now can we please get away from your and my issues Just send a PM without putting it on the board.

Okay Pat. My bad.

Edited May 11, 2007 by seandenty

[freeform]

.

Edited December 18, 2019 by freeform