Which Elements/Phases does each Vices/Negative Emotion Correlate to?

[Horus]

ostentatiousness

grudge gambling ingratitude dipsomania ambition dominance faithlessness manipulation stinginess pessimism hostility abuse debasement sexual lust sarcasm humiliation jealousy gluttony unruliness hurt cruelty unkindness obstinacy envy indifference negativity furtiveness sadism enviousness derision falseness high-handedness know-it-all rage aggression rapacity effrontery disrespectfulness hard-heartedness eagerness for power lying insidiousness self-denial inattentiveness contempt wrath haughtiness greed for money seducement vindictiveness insatiability voluptuousness excessiveness censoriousness dissatisfaction egoism ignorance hatred greed impudence imposture cursing imperiousness lecherousness callousness malignancy torment intolerance blasphemy shamelessness irresponsibility obsession prejudice arrogance violent temper garrulity dogmatism presumption intransigence oppression prodigality lack of comprehension obstinacy pride conceitedness delusion quarrelsomeness self-hatred violence vanity hypocrisy stubbornness baseness pretence mercilessness disrespect ridicule masochism tyranny capriciousness deceit anger discord calculation unyielding desire for fame deception

 

Which of the Five Elements do these vices correlate to?:

 

Fire - Heart/Small Intestine

Earth - Spleen/Stomach-Pacreas

Metal - Lung/Large Intestine

Water - Kidney/Bladder

Wood - Liver/Gall Bladder

[Stosh]

Dividing characters as vice or virtue like that is subjective opinion.

.so the question makes no sense.

Picking deception at random from the group.

Being good at it may make for a successful general

or it may enable you to escape a needless confrontation.

Looking at this group of emotions and attitudes and behaviors etc

From a neutral standpoint they do not stand apart from their

Complementary opposites in any objective way.

They all correlate to human mind.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Stosh

[Horus]

Dividing characters as vice or virtue like that is subjective opinion.

.so the question makes no sense.

Picking deception at random from the group.

Being good at it may make for a successful general

or it may enable you to escape a needless confrontation.

Looking at this group of emotions and attitudes and behaviors etc

From a neutral standpoint they do not stand apart from their

Complementary opposites in any objective way.

They all correlate to human mind.

Thanks for the reply Stosh...

 

While they correlate to human mind - they also correlate to the elements and organs...

 

ie anger is of the wood element and the liver

 

I love the process of fusion of the 5 elements, inwhich the primary negative emotions/vices are worked with...

 

I'm just putting it out there to see if anyone has done any further extended work with vices and their element correlations.

[Stosh]

Yeah I got that , I was on another angle though , "vice" is a bogus term , is what I was getting at.

Circumstance or opinion determines what will be an expedient trait.

So one could not correctly collectively group 'vices'.

 

The elements idea comes from the idea that things cant change (or pop in and out of the universe),

yet one can see that there are situations that do change. As in procreation ,fires , oxidation , freezing etc

The solution was to conclude that the various things we see are assembled from parts

that dont change (like lego bricks)

An Idea we still employ today, its just that we have since categorized down to more elements , forces , principles.

 

Its just my opinion mind-you , but I cant see carbon or water as being associated with either vice or virtue,

and traits arent elemental aspects of the universe. ( being opinion or-and circumstantially defined).

 

But I can see that you have broken the world down into categories of good and bad already , so it may be difficult or undesirable for you to make the leap to see that good and bad are illusory concepts which the eternal Tao doesnt share in. IMO

 

There simply is no chunk of "goodness" included in any particular thing.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Stosh

[soaring crane]

'Elements' is the wrong word. These have nothing to do with elements in the western sense.

 

Phases, states, or stages all say it much better.

 

'Vice' is a new one on me. Never heard it put that way before, that I remember.

[fluidity]

1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State.

2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

3. The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

4. These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.

5,6. The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

7. Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.

8. Earth comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.

9. The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.

10. By method and discipline are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.

11. These five heads should be familiar to every general: he who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.

12. Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:--

13. (1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law? (2) Which of the two generals has most ability? (3) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth? (4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced? (5) Which army is stronger? (6) On which side are officers and men more highly trained? (7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?

14. By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.

15. The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat:--let such a one be dismissed!

16. While heading the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules.

17. According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans.

18. All warfare is based on deception.

19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

20. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.

21. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

25. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.

26. Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.

 

 

Sun Tzu: The Art of War

Perfection
Innocence
Falling
Suffering
Repenting
Forgiveness
Redemption

Innocence
Perfection

Perfection Perfection
Innocence Innocence

[Horus]

Yeah I got that , I was on another angle though , "vice" is a bogus term , is what I was getting at.

Circumstance or opinion determines what will be an expedient trait.

So one could not correctly collectively group 'vices'.

 

The elements idea comes from the idea that things cant change (or pop in and out of the universe),

yet one can see that there are situations that do change. As in procreation ,fires , oxidation , freezing etc

The solution was to conclude that the various things we see are assembled from parts

that dont change (like lego bricks)

An Idea we still employ today, its just that we have since categorized down to more elements , forces , principles.

 

Its just my opinion mind-you , but I cant see carbon or water as being associated with either vice or virtue,

and traits arent elemental aspects of the universe. ( being opinion or-and circumstantially defined).

 

But I can see that you have broken the world down into categories of good and bad already , so it may be difficult or undesirable for you to make the leap to see that good and bad are illusory concepts which the eternal Tao doesnt share in. IMO

 

There simply is no chunk of "goodness" included in any particular thing.

Thanks again, stosh

 

I don't see anything as good or bad - it all depends on what your highest intention is, so "But I can see that you have broken the world down into categories of good and bad already" is not quite on the mark...

 

I'm just wanting to broaden my palate of understanding on how variations of the "negative" emotions and mental states correlate with the organs. I'm finding such a wonderful process with the primary emotions/organs correlations (ie fusuin of the 5 elements) - and just want to expand on this.

 

ie when I feel other "negative" emotions, understanding the correlations helps me transmute and balance the weather...

 

'Elements' is the wrong word. These have nothing to do with elements in the western sense.

 

Phases, states, or stages all say it much better.

 

'Vice' is a new one on me. Never heard it put that way before, that I remember.

Thanks soaring crane - elements and phases are both terms used in the fusion of the five elements. I realise that this is a taboo for some people - personally i'm not too into purely semantic discussions about using this or that word, but I hear you...hence the use of both in the thread title...

 

Virtues and vices, positive emotions and negative emotions - semantics can slow us down too much if we are not careful - but increased clarity is (of course) always welcome.

 

Virtues and vices is a common way of looking at it in moew western approaches - and maybe buddhist approaches.

[fluidity]

Think triangles.

Causal Dynamical Triangulations

Resonance Theory

 

0 Point
Originate Triangle

<|

1 => 2
Joined by 3

4: Knowingness of Triangle

Stack triangles across 2D sheet: tesselation

Curvature function applied to 2D sheet (See Poincare Conjecture/Ricci Flow) =>
Tesseract (3+1D: World Visible to Eyes)

Each triangle has Eternal-Unchanging-Archetypal identity
Each triangle is decomposable into sub-triangles, each of which has Eternal-Unchanging-Archetypal identity
Decomposition may occur to a limit (tesselated sphere radius/information content/black hole mass)
Beyond limit, is Tao/Clear Light

Tao:

Mystery, when known, ceases to be Mystery
Mystery itself, is unknowable
That is the nature of Mystery
Infinitely emptying
Infinitely filling

[soaring crane]

Thanks soaring crane - elements and phases are both terms used in the fusion of the five elements. I realise that this is a taboo for some people -

 

Not taboo - I was responding to Stosh but I was on the mobile and couldn't quote. It's not literally about carbon atoms (or wood or fire or earth or metal or water. Well, maybe water haha). But referring to the phases as 'elements' really isn't helpful imo. But only for clarity's sake, nothing dogmatic on my part.

 

When we use elements, people will often ask, 'what about air?', or they say, 'No, there are four elements - fire, water, wind and stone' ...

 

In German, it's normal now in Qigong/TCM circles to refer to them as the five 'Wandlungsphasen' - phases of change.

 

Also, thank you for the clarification about vice. Wondering - where did you get that list of vices? And have you got a chart assigning them to the different organs/phases?

[Stosh]

'Elements' is the wrong word. These have nothing to do with elements in the western sense.

 

Phases, states, or stages all say it much better.

 

'Vice' is a new one on me. Never heard it put that way before, that I remember.

Well, he's got the elements listed and correlating to organs and wanted to associate "vices" to them.

If youre saying wood fire air earth and metal are phases,,

then they should be renamed the five phases with names like liquid solid gas crystal and amorphous solid....

If someone wants to say something about phases then , by all means do so.

 

Otherwise,, they have everything to do with the greek elements ( 150-200 years older),

because its the same concept structure ..

As in-- The composition of a thing is due the relative aliquots of the elements,

and directly leads to the alchemical idea that one can turn lead into gold.

 

But thats not really my thrust , Im just saying that the term 'vice' itself has no meaning outside human conceptual confabulation, so how could it associate with inorganic elements or body parts?

 

What would it even mean to associate the things ? that eating potatoes would make you stubborn?

Edited October 17, 2013 by Stosh

[xor]

The way Five Elements were taught to me as five kingdoms.

 

Wikipedia has:

 

 

The Wu Xing, (五行 wŭ xíng) also known as the Five Elements, Five Phases, the Five Agents, the Five Movements, Five Processes, and the Five Steps/Stages, is a fivefold conceptual scheme that many traditional Chinese fields used to explain a wide array of phenomena, from cosmic cycles to the interaction between internal organs, and from the succession of political regimes to the properties of medicinal drugs. The "Five Phases" are Wood (木 mù), Fire (火 huǒ), Earth (土 tǔ), Metal (金 jīn), and Water (水 shuǐ).

 

 

 

 

then they should be renamed the five phases with names like liquid solid gas crystal and amorphous solid....

 

Why? They aren't talking about chemistry here...

 

 

As in-- The composition of a thing is due the relative aliquots of the elements,

 

That's just modern chemistry. That's not how five elements work and the Greek elements weren't really considered just "elementary building blocks" either.

 

 

Im just saying that the term 'vice' itself has no meaning outside human conceptual

 

Agreed.

Edited October 17, 2013 by xor

[thelerner]

Reminds me of the Franz Bardon system where you make up 2 soul mirrors. One with positive traits, the other negative, then you divide traits according to a pertinent element. such as:

 

AIR (hot-moist) - agile, playful, amiable, analytical thinking, careless, distraught, cavalierly, opportunistic, generous, affable, manipulable, euphoric, tolerant, cooperative, bright, eclectic, (...)

• FIRE (hot-dry) - ferocious, flaring-up, quick tempered, courageous, impulsive, spontaneous, lively imagination, bigotry, hectic, self-confident, aggressive, passionately, nimble, hysterical, hormic (...)
• WATER (cold-moist) - empathetic, idle, sensitive, daydreaming, fearful, careful, gentle, unhurried, peaceful, moderate, indecisive, sluggish, procrastinating, apathetic, submissive, (...)
• EARTH (cold-dry) - concentrated, persevering, demure, pedantic, pessimistic, factual, reserved, realistic, dogmatic, formal, laborious, blinkered, reflective, fixated, critical, closed, prejudiced, frugal, (...)

[soaring crane]

If youre saying wood fire air earth and metal are phases,,

 

Otherwise,, they have everything to do with the greek elements ( 150-200 years older)...

 

With over 2,000 posts at TTB, this is the first time you've read of the Chinese Wu Xing? I don't mean that contentiously in any way, I'm just surprised.

 

http://www.kheper.net/topics/eastern/wuxing.html

 

re Greek element system, the date of one or the other plays no role whatsoever because neither ever met the other until sometime very recently. The Huangdi Neijing from the Warring States period is the first recorded record (as I understand it) of the five phases but how many centuries the system existed and was applied before records were kept, is anyone's guess.

 

to clarify why the western word 'elements' really is inaccurate (this probably goes for the Greek system as well) - 'real' elements ie gold, cobalt, magnesium, are called elements precisely because they don't change form. They're elemental, can't be created. The Wu Xing are all about change. 'Wood' is burned by 'fire', resulting in ash, 'Earth', etc. The process of one transforming into the next is the crux of the system.

 

To be fair, it's much less complicated to default to the easy word 'elements', and I do it, too, when talking about them. But I do feel it's important to understand that the word is meant figuratively.

Edited October 17, 2013 by soaring crane

[Stosh]

The way Five Elements were taught to me as five kingdoms.

He said 'elements'

and listed them.

 

Fire - Heart/Small Intestine

Earth - Spleen/Stomach-Pacreas

Metal - Lung/Large Intestine

Water - Kidney/Bladder

Wood - Liver/Gall Bladder

 

to the body part correlations , you add kingdoms

and soaring crane adds 'Wandlungsphasen'

Thelerner subtracts to get air fire water and earth .....

and Carl Sagan distinguished matter from energies

 

I think we can agree , that folks are doing a lot of lumping of stuff into categories ,

and the categories arent all the same groupings.

 

I said

" they have everything to do with the greek elements ( 150-200 years older),

because its the same concept structure .." which it is, its just that the divisions arent being made in the same places .

Did some folks build that into huge fictional edifices that have no real correlation , Yes !

But its all just in folks heads, because there is no element ,or phase, or building block ,or kingdom ,bestowing "vice." or "virtue" .

 

Get me a glass of virtue ! ,and make it snappy!

 

 

Why? They aren't talking about chemistry here...

Not modern style chemistry no , we know a great deal more nowadays about chemical and ionic bonds etc

( you do agree that - chemicals - exist ,right ?)

, but it was a form chemistry they had back then,, before IPads . Weve added to the idea corrected the confusions , and attribute the behaviors of materials to physical attributes.

 

If there is a spiritual benefit of looking at things divided into groups of four or five ,

Well,,, go ahead with that.

Im not going to join you but you can go on with it if you want.

 

 

That's not how five elements work and the Greek elements weren't really considered just "elementary building blocks" either.

RE:

"As in-- The composition of a thing is due the relative aliquots of the elements,

and directly leads to the alchemical idea that one can turn lead into gold." ???

 

Ummm ...you are aware that the relative proportions of real elements and molecules, does !actually determine the properties of a substance .

They just didnt know the complexities of modern chemistry.

But the Greeks did consider it-- that transitory phenomena , like a tree , was possible ,

because of components which were not transitory, (which were recycled , and didn't appear out of nowhere.)

 

If things exist then they either have an origin , or always existed

if a thing originated, its origin had to have an origin,, etc ,etc ,ad infinitum

So things that exist, have always existed ,and always will.

Since they always exist then they cant change

because they changed they would cease to exist as what they were.

How do the things that seem to change , then do so?

The transitory pattern of what they seem to be is the nature of what the thing is.

 

for instance , a tree is composed of inorganic materials , the 'tree-form'

is said to live and die , but it is just a pattern of sorts ,, there is no 'tree' molecule

there is no real distinction between inorganic and organic . just as there is no real distinction between virtue and vice.

 

Salt - sodium chloride,, , tell me ,, is it a 'vice' or is it a 'virtue'?

Autumn , is it a vice or a virtue

If Cat is correct and "hatred relates to hearts " or something such ,

what is the supposed connection ?? what the heck is that supposed to mean? If a person has a heart then hatred comes from it ?

 

Hearts pump blood , minds in brains can entertain hatred , and if you already know that ,, I dont see why it should behoove you to pretend these other connections make sense nowadays.

 

Once upon a time it was the best folks could come up with.

 

Shall I compare thee to a summers day?

 

I could , but it makes no sense.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2013 by Stosh

[xor]

Not modern style chemistry no , we know a great deal more nowadays about chemical and ionic bonds etc

( you do agree that - chemicals - exist ,right ?)

 

Did I write something to make you believe I didn't think chemicals exist?

 

, but it was a form chemistry they had back then,, before IPads . Weve added to the idea corrected the confusions , and attribute the behaviors of materials to physical attributes.

 

Very small part of it is primitive chemistry or would you consider political affairs between two states a form of primitive chemistry?

 

If there is a spiritual benefit of looking at things divided into groups of four or five ,

Well,,, go ahead with that.

Im not going to join you but you can go on with it if you want.

 

Didn't say anything like that.

 

Ummm ...you are aware that the relative proportions of real elements and molecules, does !actually determine the properties of a substance .

 

You are still talking down to me. I haven't forgotten basic chemistry. You're just assuming that I don't know the difference.

 

Did you not notice I said I agreed on part of your post when you started asking me about vice and virtue of NaCl?

[Horus]

Not taboo - I was responding to Stosh but I was on the mobile and couldn't quote. It's not literally about carbon atoms (or wood or fire or earth or metal or water. Well, maybe water haha). But referring to the phases as 'elements' really isn't helpful imo. But only for clarity's sake, nothing dogmatic on my part.

 

When we use elements, people will often ask, 'what about air?', or they say, 'No, there are four elements - fire, water, wind and stone' ...

 

In German, it's normal now in Qigong/TCM circles to refer to them as the five 'Wandlungsphasen' - phases of change.

 

Also, thank you for the clarification about vice. Wondering - where did you get that list of vices? And have you got a chart assigning them to the different organs/phases?

I found it on a google search - virtue science I think was the site - no, i don't have a chart or I would have posted it to discuss - that is essentially what I want to create...

[Horus]

hi Horus,

 

You'd have to go deeper. root of a quality varies according to person and circumstance.

 

You'd need to apply perspicacity to each circumstance and respond to it in the moment to ascertain point of origin.

 

for example.. stubborn quarellsome can arise from grief.. ie lungs

 

anger ie liver

 

hatred ie heart

 

anxiety ie spleen.. etc etc..

 

or a combi platter of all of the above, or any one distortion as it arises. chain reaction.

 

no one size fits all. Case studies will shed light on the extent of variation that can present.

Agree that going within is the best way to solve this yourself - which is what I'm doing.

 

It is much easier with a framework to utilise, as I've discovered with the fusion of the 5 elements.

[Stosh]

Sorry I'm not trying to be insulting , its just that I Am trying to draw attention to some really simple intellectual leaps . To connect the dots of my reasoning , Which , have often been dismissed in pursuit of a faithful adherence to a 2000 yr old perspective...since the modern mindset is in contradiction to some aspects of it.

 

Ill rephrase to a better worded presentation.

The world can be categorized as 1 whole, 2 yin yang 3 yin yang plus the whole 4 elements 5 elements

And so forth to infinity . The thing significant is that the folks are trying to do this division along the lines of properties rather than attribute events to jack frost or the olympians.

I'm seeing this as overriding the particulars of any favorite system.

We both know and depend on modern understandings, either directly or indirectly.

But even beyond that, vice is just an opinion, a transitory perspective which depends on our own bias to even delineate.

Some in the thread are willing to make associations of vice to various things , but this requires that vice has some kind of non opinion based existance. So.... those persons would still be operating from a misled perspective.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

When one concieves virtue

One also coceives vice

And vice versa

One man begets his own envy

The other , his arrogance

How much ? That one would rather not have chosen to be..

Was caused by a judgement of virtue.

 

How many conflicts have arisen

Hardships endured

Injustices done?

And yet the trend is still to try to pursue it

Ironically the idea that one is not good enough in some way

Is self motivating and self defeating at the same time.

Does a reasonable person find reason in wishing this situation on himself?

Would this be likely or unlikely to bring a person into harmony with those around himself , embodiment of wise unattatched perspective?

Or is it a run of the mill illusion trapping the unwary in samsaric cycles of selfdestruction?

Edited October 18, 2013 by Stosh

[xor]

Sorry I'm not trying to be insulting

 

No harm done. I didn't really take it that seriously. You're talking to a guy who uses an inorganic chemistry textbook for engineers(got a 4/5 on the course when I was in uni) as a mousepad about basic chemistry though. So I was talking about something you perceived.

 

its just that I Am trying to draw attention to some really simple intellectual leaps . To connect the dots of my reasoning , Which , have often been dismissed in pursuit of a faithful adherence to a 2000 yr old perspective...since the modern mindset is in contradiction to some aspects of it.

 

Thinking the two (modern chemistry, five phases theory) are talking about the same thing is an error. Yeah mixing the two up would be a gross mistake.

 

But even beyond that, vice is just an opinion, a transitory perspective which depends on our own bias to even delineate.

 

Indeed it is, or you can change the meaning of vice to be something that's harmful to you. Like being angry is not useful to your system but good for momentarily supressing pain. So you could call anger vice even if you don't believe in vice or sin.

 

I use virtue to mean return to natural state. Doesn't mean I preach virtue or something.

Edited October 18, 2013 by xor

[Stosh]

So you could call anger vice even if you don't believe in vice or sin.

 

You might , but some anger can be "justified" or it can be turned to advantage ..

there is an evolutionary advantage to having and expressing anger , as in

Don't tread on me! or Hey YOU SOB thats my wife youre talking about!

Does it usually include an element of stress? , Sure! , but there is also stress in

getting sand kicked in ones face. Anger arises out of a concern for onesself

and a sense of need for aggressive action ,,, sometimes expedient.

So anger is wrongly called a vice even if you define vice as something harmful to you

( since it is not exclusively or conclusively so)

Something inexpedient or stupid or self destructive etc ,, should get called by those names

,,,,using the word vice instead --is an error.

 

 

I use virtue to mean return to natural state. Doesn't mean I preach virtue or something

Your natural state includes a propensity for anger.

I think you mean something akin to 'te' rather than virtue ( english usage)

If not distinguishing -you are again devolving back to good and evil, right wrong morality judgements.

But if you are preserving the distinction , we are on the same page.

IMO

[xor]

We agree on this part more than not, what we were getting lost in is the words is what I think.

[Stosh]

We agree on this part more than not, what we were getting lost in is the words is what I think.

Youre probably right about that,

my bad.