A sovereign God question

[Isimsiz Biri]

Be careful about not being rational regardless of west, east, south or north.

Rationality is the only asset of Westerners in general. This is because you forgot your hearts.

[Nungali]

 

Brian, nobody says Christian people using Christianity for corrupted purposes.

 

Nobody says Buddhists using Buddhism for corrupted purposes.

 

But when it is Islam, ooooo! Suddenly, Muslims using Islam for corrupted purposes. As if Muslims are not human beings but angels.

 

The motive behind is the belief that Islam is enemy. Typical Crusader thinking.

 

As you see, all animals are equal but pigs are more equal.

 

I have seen it before in this forum. Many times.

 

Typical ... yet again 'Brad Pitt' here cant answer the question and instead of intelligently offering any answer offers the same old boring excuse.

 

If only you would Skype with me .... then you would be a Moslem .... purrleeease !

[Nungali]

 

Brian,

 

I am really tired of your logic games. I am not in a good mood. Find somebody else to enjoy.

He gets really tired when he starts loosing ... off to bed now you go ... goodnight Brad Pitt.

[Nungali]

 

Brian, I am sick of this attitude of yours. Post whatever you like, for your every example, I will post three. You are trying to help Nungali. You are trying to help RongzomFan. You are trying to help 3bob.

 

For one time, be a man and challenge me YOURSELF. With your own ideas.

Possibility 1 ; Brian, Nungali, 3bob and Ronggzomfan are all in a secret cabal, our mission is to get isinsiz biri because .... we drew his name out of a hat. he is the one good right one and we are all wrong.

 

Possibiltiy 2 ; isimsizi bir becomes unstable and illogical when anyone contradicts him and lashes out with all sorts of silly responses that make little sense and many people are aware of this and try to help him by showing it to him.

 

 

PS. a Moslem posts pictures of people with their hands cut off ????

Edited December 14, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

I said I will post three examples from Christianity to your each example from Islam. I know, with your limited knowledge of history, it is not so easy for you. Try it. Make my day.

What? Gone from Brad Pitt to Clint Eastwood have you?

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Muslim+atrocities&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=pdusUv7tJMzYoAT7zoCQAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=983&bih=401

 

People are atrocious and evil IN ANY RELIGION .... urmmmm ... in case you haven't noticed it is one's attitude that makes all the difference .

 

Why do you not follow Mohammad's contract to look after and respect Christians !

 

Achtiname of Muhammad - Muhammad's promise to Christians.

 

Some have argued that the Achtiname is a resource for building bridges between Muslims and Christians. For example in 2009, in the pages of the Washington Post, Muqtedar Khan translated the document in full, arguing that “Those who seek to foster discord among Muslims and Christians focus on issues that divide and emphasize areas of conflict. But when resources such as Muhammad's promise to Christians is invoked and highlighted it builds bridges. It inspires Muslims to rise above communal intolerance and engenders good will in Christians who might be nursing fear of Islam or Muslims.”

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad

Edited December 14, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

http://i.imgur.com/nmbbQOM.jpg%5D]http://i.imgur.com/nmbbQOM.jpg] Edited December 14, 2013 by Nungali

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

Typical ... yet again 'Brad Pitt' here cant answer the question and instead of intelligently offering any answer offers the same old boring excuse.

 

If only you would Skype with me .... then you would be a Moslem .... purrleeease !

 

Ignored.

[Isimsiz Biri]

He gets really tired when he starts loosing ... off to bed now you go ... goodnight Brad Pitt.

 

Nungali,

 

If you think you are funny, go to zoo and feed chimpanzees with peanuts. You will be a good happy team.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Possibility 1 ; Brian, Nungali, 3bob and Ronggzomfan are all in a secret cabal, our mission is to get isinsiz biri because .... we drew his name out of a hat. he is the one good right one and we are all wrong.

 

Possibiltiy 2 ; isimsizi bir becomes unstable and illogical when anyone contradicts him and lashes out with all sorts of silly responses that make little sense and many people are aware of this and try to help him by showing it to him.

 

 

PS. a Moslem posts pictures of people with their hands cut off ????

 

Nungali,

 

First clean the shame you brought on your Okinawan master and his style .Then talk. As a loser in this life, I know you are searching for care. You better meditate on your own situation.

[Isimsiz Biri]

http://i.imgur.com/nmbbQOM.jpg%5D]http://i.imgur.com/nmbbQOM.jpg]

 

I think it is fake.

[Nungali]

Of course ... you would have to think that.

 

Do you think respecting others 'of the book' fake as well ?

 

Is it 'fake' that under edict of Mohammad that high Moslem Cultures lived in peace with Christians and Jews.

 

Are they not 'people of the book'?

 

And does not Turkey now and through the past, offer a good place to live for Muslim, Jew and Christian because of tolerance preached by Mohammad ?

 

And I will even go so far as to suggest that religious tolerance and the idea to accept 'people of the book' is partially contingent on the idea of a shared sovereign God.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Nungali

[Isimsiz Biri]

Of course ... you would have to think that.

 

Do you think respecting others 'of the book' fake as well ?

 

Is it 'fake' that under edict of Mohammad that high Moslem Cultures lived in peace with Christians and Jews.

 

Are they not 'people of the book'?

 

And does not Turkey now and through the past, offer a good place to live for Muslim, Jew and Christian because of tolerance preached by Mohammad ?

 

And I will even go so far as to suggest that religious tolerance and the idea to accept 'people of the book' is partially contingent on the idea of a shared sovereign God.

 

Nungali,

 

The general theme of that letter is all right. However, it does not fit into historical realities.

 

1. The letters of Prophet Muhammad always started with Basmala, namely, "Bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīmIn" In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmala)

 

Please refer to Prophet Muhammad's letters to head of states:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State)

 

For instance, to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) Emperor Heraclius,

In the name of God the Beneficent, the Merciful: (This letter is) from Muhammad son of Abdullah to Heraclius the Great (ruler) of the Romans (Byzantines). Peace be upon him, he who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to submit your will to God; submit your will to God and you will be safe, and God will double thy reward, and if you reject, thou you bear the sins of persecuting Arians.

(And I recite to you God's Statement:) (O Muhammad): 'and people of the scripture! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but God and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside God. Then, if they turn away, say: 'Bear witness that we are Muslims' (those who have surrendered to God).

 

I just did not observe Basmala in the beginning of the letter you posted.

 

2. I have never heard Prophet Muhammad sent such a letter in general history of Islam. Besides, I could not find in: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Catherine's_Monastery) Year 628 is one year after Battle of Trench and two years before conquer of Mecca. Mount Sınai is in Egypt which is very far away. Egypt was not under control of Muslims at that date.

 

Egypt has been conquested in 639 - 642 during caliphate Umar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Egypt)

So, historically, it does not fit too.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[adept]

And I will even go so far as to suggest that religious tolerance and the idea to accept 'people of the book' is partially contingent on the idea of a shared sovereign God.

 

Yes, that is correct. There is only one God/Creator. The same God of Islam, Judaism, Christianity.

The religious trappings of the various sects have nothing to do with belief/knowledge in a supreme God/Creator.

We should more than tolerate. We should accept and embrace people of all religions, and of none, as they are, without question. Unfortunately, governments and the powers that be, have manipulated religion, belief and ancient culture, over thousands of years in order to create conflict and exercise control over the population.

[Nungali]

True - but there is an extant world-wide religion that is growing against this government and powers and the idea that different religions have to fight;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai_Faith


Of course, when 'certain Moslems' caught up with them they dipped their feet in boiling oil, ripped off the soles of their feet, hammered horseshoes into their feet bones and drove them with whips through the streets.

“Know then, that as man is born into this world amidst the Darkness of Matter, and the strife of contending forces; so must his first endeavour be to seek the Light through their reconciliation.
Thou then, who hast trials and troubles, rejoice because of them, for in them is Strength, and by their means is a pathway opened unto that Light.
How should it be otherwise, O man, whose life is but a day in Eternity, a drop in the Ocean of time; how, were thy trials not many, couldst thou purge thy soul from the dross of earth?
Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased.
Rejoice therefore, O Initiate, for the greater thy trial the greater thy Triumph. When men shall revile thee, and speak against thee falsely, hath not the Master said, “Blessed art thou!”?

[Liber Librae]

Edited December 17, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

Nungali,

 

The general theme of that letter is all right.

 

Good! Then you agree with what I wrote about tolerance .

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

Good! Then you agree with what I wrote about tolerance .

 

If you are following negative path, your tolerance is also fake. Your chop suey contains many negative elements. Sorry.

[Nungali]

I was talking about Islamic concept of tolerance, you call it mine (which it is not) and you called it fake.

 

You called The Prophet of Islam's teaching on tolerance fake ??? - I would NOT want to be you!

 

Tolerance is a negative ingredient is it ?

 

I think that you just don't like onions not all food is sweet - but balance is healthy.

 

If you don't agree with my path ... or if you don't agree even with one's particular path in Islam ... or if they are the same path in Islam but have a slightly different variation or interpretation then their tolerance is 'Fake' ???

 

That is fundamentalism trying to erode tolerance.

 

ANY sort of tolerance is good ... and IMO ... in the situation the world is in at present ANY tolerance should be welcomed ... to suspiciously judge tolerance from the perspective of ones fundamentalist religious viewpoint defeats the whole purpose of The Prophet of Islam's edicts and teachings on tolerance for 'people of the book' and other religions.

 

I hope that you can come to find the tolerance that your own religion and Prophet are trying to teach you .

Edited December 17, 2013 by Nungali

[Jadespear]

A few thoughts...

 

Sovereign God? ----- Since the concept of God that you all seem to be working with is one of an incomprehensible and unknowable one, how could you even begin to prove it? Thats called trying to prove a positive, a total pseudoscience that is of no real help to anyone at all.

 

And since this is a taoist site why don't we reflect on one of the very first verses of the Tao Te Ching?:

 

The Tao that can be named, IS NOT The ETERNAL Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name

The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth

The named is the mother of myriad things

[Seth Ananda]

A few thoughts...

 

Sovereign God? ----- Since the concept of God that you all seem to be working with is one of an incomprehensible and unknowable one, how could you even begin to prove it? Thats called trying to prove a positive, a total pseudoscience that is of no real help to anyone at all.

 

And since this is a taoist site why don't we reflect on one of the very first verses of the Tao Te Ching?:

 

The Tao that can be named, IS NOT The ETERNAL Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name

The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth

The named is the mother of myriad things

 

Well, actually this is the Hermetic forum, which has been pointed out to you quite a few times now.

 

The Hermetic God is not like most other false conceptions of God. It Is not a 'person' occupying some time and space, with wants and needs. it is far far vaster than that.

 

God in the hermetic view, Gets called Nous or Mind, the All, the one, The Good, The Father, Universal Mother... It Basically boils down to being the mind of everything, the intelligence of all the universe/s and galaxies, and we and everything else are all thoughts or ideas within its mind.

Being composed of Mind {as an Idea of God within God, made from God} we share in Gods Nature also, which allows us to walk the path back to remembering our oneness with God, as a node of God.

 

We are the microcosm, of Nous. We even create the same way, or almost. We too create by Imagining, yet since we are still limited we must imagine then use our hands, unlike Nous which Imagines everything into being alone.

 

Now some people get very concerned over what can be proven and what cant. To me that is fine for materialistic sciences which by their nature depend on good solid research and empirical evidence.

Spiritual matters though require different modes of inquiry and exploration. The Mystic's quest is one such attempt at knowing something deeper, through direct personal investigation and experience.

 

Mystics, 'accidental' mystics, inner explorers and Shamen for as long as we have existed, have continued to bump up against an area during 'inner experience' that is of an incredible foundational or underlying intelligence to existence.

This has been experiences over and over again by so many people throughout time, and the experiencers began working out systems or ways to get their again, that became a science itself.

 

Not a science that 'proves' Nous, but a science that reliably takes students to that inner state, over and over again.

That is mysticisms area of repeatable evidence.

 

Now while I think it would be awesome to prove 'Nous' I doubt it will ever happen, and I would far rather experience it directly than be told that it is scientifically 'real' which would feel pretty similar to growing up in bible school, were you get told every day that god is real.

I don't care what people say, I value the direct experience...

[Nungali]

Well said !

[Isimsiz Biri]

I was talking about Islamic concept of tolerance, you call it mine (which it is not) and you called it fake.

 

You called The Prophet of Islam's teaching on tolerance fake ??? - I would NOT want to be you!

 

Tolerance is a negative ingredient is it ?

 

I think that you just don't like onions not all food is sweet - but balance is healthy.

 

If you don't agree with my path ... or if you don't agree even with one's particular path in Islam ... or if they are the same path in Islam but have a slightly different variation or interpretation then their tolerance is 'Fake' ???

 

That is fundamentalism trying to erode tolerance.

 

ANY sort of tolerance is good ... and IMO ... in the situation the world is in at present ANY tolerance should be welcomed ... to suspiciously judge tolerance from the perspective of ones fundamentalist religious viewpoint defeats the whole purpose of The Prophet of Islam's edicts and teachings on tolerance for 'people of the book' and other religions.

 

I hope that you can come to find the tolerance that your own religion and Prophet are trying to teach you .

 

Nungali,

 

You have an altar for Pagan Gods. It is very funny when you talk about Islam. I said your tolerance is fake, not tolerance in general is fake. You have a real problem in understanding simple sentences. It is very normal since you indulge in negative practices including witchcraft, etc.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Jadespear]

Pretty sure the "ten thousand things" is a poetic device as in it means every part of the lexicon of whatever language you use to communicate.... In other words, the names, and meanings, of all of them.

 

There is no sovereign god in hermetics. The word hermetics is derived from the Greek Olympian god Hermes. A god who had different meaning and action in different stories written by different authors throughout time. Different groups and different people use the word "hermetic" to describe different things. For instance the "hermetic order of the golden dawn." The " hermetic" movement of scientists in Europe. The stories and information recorded by Hermes Trismesgustos .... Etc etc etc.

 

 

[Jadespear]

We should not do or not do anything according to anyOne outside of ourselves.... Especially not th Christian god of the Old Testament. All you have to do is read some biblical passages to see how compassionate his followers were oh yeah....

 

Some really brutal mass killings by Elijah of opposing worshipping factions. And many more. Check out the book of kings, both of them.

 

I used to think that there was a common thread in some religions as a theistic god, and there is.... There is always some theistic god who is different than someone else's who people fight and kill each other over. Religious acceptance and tolerance is not really the answer I don't think for the world at large at all. It's scientific inquiry and actual knowledge of how the world works, things that are true and indisputable no matter what god you worship or imagine to be the cause of anything at all. Actual knowledge is what has helped mankind, not superstition and mythical gods.

[Nungali]

Pretty sure the "ten thousand things" is a poetic device as in it means every part of the lexicon of whatever language you use to communicate.... In other words, the names, and meanings, of all of them. There is no sovereign god in hermetics. The word hermetics is derived from the Greek Olympian god Hermes. A god who had different meaning and action in different stories written by different authors throughout time. Different groups and different people use the word "hermetic" to describe different things. For instance the "hermetic order of the golden dawn." The " hermetic" movement of scientists in Europe. The stories and information recorded by Hermes Trismesgustos .... Etc etc etc.

ERmmmm ... that word is describing the same thing - its an adjective to describe how some different things are using the same understanding and processes ; GD, 'movement' in science, stories and info all using the the same principles.

[Nungali]

We should not do or not do anything according to anyOne outside of ourselves.... Especially not th Christian god of the Old Testament. All you have to do is read some biblical passages to see how compassionate his followers were oh yeah.... Some really brutal mass killings by Elijah of opposing worshipping factions. And many more. Check out the book of kings, both of them. I used to think that there was a common thread in some religions as a theistic god, and there is.... There is always some theistic god who is different than someone else's who people fight and kill each other over. Religious acceptance and tolerance is not really the answer I don't think for the world at large at all. It's scientific inquiry and actual knowledge of how the world works, things that are true and indisputable no matter what god you worship or imagine to be the cause of anything at all. Actual knowledge is what has helped mankind, not superstition and mythical gods.

 

Sorry, I can only say that is your opinion and not one very well informed by the history and science you put such great faith in.

 

Do you realise where science came from; what lifted up Islamic culture to its pinnacle, what bought Europe out of the Dark Ages, what bought about the collapse the rule of the church and ushered in the Enlightenment; and what led to the type of society that you live in that allows freedom of individuality and expression that you enjoy?

 

Do you realise that hermetics fought against the church and the concepts of God you put forward as political and power based systems and many hermeticists were tortured and put to death by such a church?

 

Before coming into the hermetic forum and calling hermetics rubbish maybe you should get a liiiitle back ground info on the subject to present your case a little less ...... embarrassingly ?