A sovereign God question

[Isimsiz Biri]

Yet in another thread you said Mohammad was creator ????

 

Prophet Muhammad prayed to God Almigty to create other servers like himself. God accepted his prayer and created 18000 Realms. Prophet Muhammad was assigned as the highest level manager of 18000 Realms as he was Habibullah, The Beloved One of God.

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

 

Isimsiz ! My long lost brother ! I still love you !

 

Let's not let a little thing like an entire religion get between us. I'm sure we will catch up on the heavenly internet one day in the future. Hopefully then, we can resolve all those issues.

 

You have taught me a lot about your teachings. Nothing is lost.

 

 

Blessings of Heaven to Isismiz.

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

I have never seen a Christian but real Christian friend answer my questions. You are not an exception. If you come to Turkey, I will take you to Ihlara Valley in Capodocia to first Christian churchs which they worshipped only one God just as in Islam.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Islam is an enormous insult to Jesus in trying to somehow co-opt his spiritual validity as if He had anything to do with it which he doesn't.

180 degrees opposite. We love Prophet Jesus Christ much more than "Christians" As a crusader, you can only serve Satan just like other crusaders in the history.

[3bob]

the old tribal and newer sectarian warfare cultures that are connected to and part of the foundational doctrines of Islam are indicative of the powers its serves. (spout and twist things all you want but eye-witness history shows otherwise)

[Jeff]

 

Hi Jeff,

 

I'm interpreting the mystic stuff as that Jesus was 'humanized' from a ray that was sent directly by God the father, from the logos within absolute beingness (God) "the word was made flesh". We were also humanized in the same way, our souls being created millions of years ago. We, now as humans, seem to have lost our super-consciousness along the way - or our christ-consciousness if you like i.e., (our lights went out). When we are born, the light is there, but this is quickly diminished by our soul's accumulated karmic influences. But its probably worse than that since everyone around you is constantly bombarding you with lower thoughts, desires and emotions - they drag you down on a conscious and sub-conscious level. (best to find a cave to live in ?).

 

Jesus probably had no karma, but took on all of our sinful debts for our sakes (as it seems) and re-established the link between us and God through reconciliation via the crucifixion. If that's true, I suppose you gotta give him a bit of credit for that.

 

Its sort of like what I (or any worldy father) will do for my kids when they break something in the house. They cannot pay for damages/debts, so I get really pissed off. But later I show pitty (because I love them), so I send myself to the lounge room in human form, pull out the wallet and pay for thier debts. Reconciled at last ! (we are made in God's image after all)

 

Sophia, I'm guessing from that short read, is referring to what shamans call silent-knowledge (as opposed to reason which are positions of our focal point in consciousness). A slight shift initiated by the holy spirit can put you in this state. Call it what you will:- super-consciousness or super-sensible awarensss. Sophia is wisdom, knowledge, experiences all sorts of stuff you can get from the spirit.

 

I'd say your right about the The Holy Spirit. It would permeate everything. If God or the Archangels will something to happen, its done though the holy spirit. But I will need to study this more. Those bible references are very cryptic and it takes me ages to intuit that stuff.

 

Moving towards the sun - Danger Will Robinson !

Remeber that your intent is the driver. Almost no one was aware of the existence of Christ before he came to earth. So when you die, who/what are you going to intend to find ? You would head for the brightest thing you know of -- the sun. (remember a lot of people were worshiping the Sun Gods at that time too). If you have seen Christ's light, brighter, more perfect that a million suns, you would just know. I can't explain it any other way. All this does not imply that people before hand have not made it back to God. A few may have stumbled onto it.

 

I've read bits on Melchizedek (mostly anecdotal) . There is supposedly a whole Order of Melchizedekians still in existence. Some even suggest they were around at the time of Christs appearence - sort of helping him out. In reference to those biblical passages - you would know more on this than I do.

 

Got anything to add/subtract ?

 

Bless you with Silent Knowledge

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Hi Chegg,

 

Thanks for the discussion. A few points with a difference of perspective...

 

A realized divine being can choose to manifest in human form. This happens in the Christ tradition (similar to like with the Buddhist vow) with the perspective that it possible to "help" the development of beings/souls. All physical form is subject to both bombardment of issues, but also fundamental developmental attachments (karma) that must be seen through. So essentially, Jesus had to re-see through it all.

 

Regarding what Jesus "did" (or the new covenant), I have described my perspective in some of the other Christian threads. But, similar to what you said, he created (became) sort of a human network/bridge for those with faith/knowledge. True communion is a transmission/connection.

 

Interesting thoughts on Sophia. My perspective is different. One must remember that Sophia is from the "everlasting" stuff and before creation. Also, the Holy Spirit is in creation.

 

I would agree that intent (or will) is the driver, but in discussing heading to sun (or any location), it would seem necessary to discuss the nature of physical reality. What is the sun that one's spirit/soul could go to it? Also, I have definitely experienced Christ's light and know what you mean, but i would argue that "brightness" is a perception of mind.

 

Finally, I would say that there are many valid traditions and lots of beings helping out.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Nungali]

. If you come to Turkey,

Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

 

he invited me to Turkey and then said he was going to wait for me out the front of his house with a baseball bat. (Apparently having a game of baseball is some Turkish custom enacted before one enters the house ?

[Brian]

I think "baseball bat" might have been a euphemism...

[chegg]

.

Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[3bob]

if some Muslims like to play baseball that's cool, although I imagine it is not allowed in some areas?

[Brian]

Well, I was just thinking...

 

Mohammad didn't play baseball. That makes it unlikely that a devout Muslim would play baseball. That would make it unlikely IB would have a baseball bat with which to greet Nungali. A devout Muslim also wouldn't lie, though, (although the concept of taqiyya comes to mind) so there must have been truth in that statement. That led me to suggest perhaps he alludes to some other object. Not sure what, though.

[chegg]

.

Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[3bob]

There is a lot of mystic type material related to the sun in many religions and ways!

 

The American Indians have what is called going with or walking with the sun as in the clockwise direction which is the correct way to do so, where-as going counter-clockwise may not be so good. (?) Btw, the proper way to set up a tipi is to walk the main rope around the poles in a clockwise direction, also many ceremonies are done in a clock-wise direction on purpose.

 

Hindus have a great deal of spiritual meanings related to the sun! (whereas going to moon so to speak is going to more incarnations)

[Jeff]

Thanks Jeff,

 

I beleive the sun still exisits in the lower to higher realms and could be a draw card for those mostly unaware in the spirit world. You can only reach those higher realms if you are made aware of them (through Christ) prior to death or someone (Chirst) decides to come along and take you up later on or someone on earth who is advanced enough can also help you ascend (again through Christ) after death. Perhaps those unaware still have to ask to be saved ?

 

This leads me to one more niggly question worthy of discussion. There is a consensus amongst many theologens that people are chosen before they are born (the old 'predestination' argument). Evidence can be found in the bible eg "I have chosen you, you have not chosen me" or something like that. I think there are more statements refering to being setup before birth.

 

If that is the case, should anyone bother with anything? Do we even get to make a choice ?

 

"Hey Jeff, you reckon we have a choice?"

 

 

(Thats me on the right by the way)

 

Bless you Jeff

:wub: :wub:

 

Hi Chegg,

 

Ahhhh.... The old question of choice (or free will).

 

It is very hard to say... in my limited experience, free will (and choice) exists, but it is relative to the clarity and perception of the being. Ultimately we are "children of God" and co-creators in existence, but most operate from automated ego responses.

 

Best regards,

Jeff

[chegg]

.

Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[Isimsiz Biri]

the old tribal and newer sectarian warfare cultures that are connected to and part of the foundational doctrines of Islam are indicative of the powers its serves. (spout and twist things all you want but eye-witness history shows otherwise)

 

You proved your knowledge about history about Pakistan-India conflict which you consider it as a religious conflict. It was rather political. I also gave examples from history of Christianity. You have been defeated already. If you want to be a crusader, you better join Templar Knights (http://www.knightstemplar.org/)

Edited January 12, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

Thanks Isimsiz !

 

Good point. But just because another religion maybe newer on the scene does not necessarily make it more or less valid. Just like brand new construction projects can fall and collapse due to really bad design and foundations.

 

Remember that both bible scripture and experience declare that there are true prophets and false prophets. Hundreds of verses in the Bible speak of the faithful prophets that God used to teach, lead and correct his people. Moses was God's prophet(Deut 18:15). Balaam was an unfaithful or false prophet.(Num 22:7-32). Those who read the sacred history of the ancient Hebrews will note the constant conflict between true prophets of God such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel and an endless parade of wicked men like Hananiah the false prophet (Jer 28:1-17). Jesus warned of “false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves”(Matt 7:15) (where is that Picture Dorian ?).

 

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:24)

 

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it." (Luke 16:16)

 

So, according to the bible, the 360^o degree Pie you claim is certainly not correct and it doesn't support the idea that 'future prophets' or newer religions should take more of the pie.

 

e.g. When Jesus Christ said in the bible:- "No one gets to the Father unless its through me"

 

Going by that statement. The pie should be 360^o Christianity !!!

 

 

I think most of us believe in a (sovereign) God. The question is, what is the best way to get there. Isimsiz, WHAT IS THE ........

BEST WAY ????? (and why ?)

 

edit: the answer to that may go on forever, lol.

 

 

Blessings of joyful counter arguments !

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Chegg,

 

I found an article of Mr. Fethullah Gulen, a great religious leader of Islam in English. I think his reply is better than mine for your post:

 

http://www.fethullahgulenchair.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=245:prophet-muhammad-in-the-bible-&catid=60:essentials-of-the-islamic-faith&Itemid=215

 

 

 

Prophet Muhammad in the Bible

WRITTEN BY FETHULLAH GÜLEN

Almost all previous Prophets predicted Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings. Despite the distortions suffered by the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospels, we find indications of his coming.

For example, the Torah promises the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings:

The Lord said to me [Moses]: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you among their brothers; I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I will Myself call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:17–19)

The phrase: a Prophet like you among their brothers clearly refers to a Prophet from the line of Ishmael, the brother of Isaac, who is the forefather of Moses' people (the Children of Israel). The only Prophet who came from this line after Moses and resembled him in many ways (e.g., bringing a new law and waging war on his enemies), is Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings. Also, Deuteronomy 34:10 clearly states that no Prophet like Moses ever appeared among the Israelites: "[With respect to his virtues and awesome deeds,] a Prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knows face to face, no longer appeared among Israel."[1] The Qur'an points to the same fact: We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness over you, even as We sent to Pharaoh a Messenger (73:15).

The sentence: I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him, in the above Biblical verse, means that the promised Prophet will be unlettered and speak whatever is revealed to him. God states this in the Qur'an: He does not speak out of [his own] desire. It is but a Revelation revealed (53:3–4).

The following verse, The Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran (Deuteronomy, 33:2), refers to the Prophethood of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, respectively, upon them be peace. Prophet Moses spoke to God and received the Torah at Sinai; Prophet Jesus received Divine Revelation at Seir, a place in Palestine; and God manifested Himself to humanity for the last time through His Revelation to Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, at Paran, a mountain range near Makka. The Torah mentions (Genesis 21:21) Paran as the desert area where Prophet Abraham, upon him be peace, left Hagar and their son Ishmael. The Zamzam well also is located there. As stated explicitly in the Qur'an (14:35–37), Abraham left them in the valley of Makka, at that time an uninhabited place within Paran's mountain ranges.

The verse in Deuteronomy, according to the Arabic version published in London (1944) and the Ottoman Turkish version (Istanbul: 1885), continues: He came with myriads of holy ones; in his right hand appeared to them the fire of the Shari'a. This verse refers to the promised Prophet, Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, who would have numerous Companions of the highest degree of sainthood. The fire of the Shari'a alludes to the fact that he would be allowed, even ordered, to fight his enemies.

In the Gospel of Matthew, we come across an interesting verse in which Jesus said:

Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed." (Matthew 21:42–44)

This capstone cannot be Prophet Jesus, for the verses refer to crushing victories won by the "capstone's" followers. No people were ever crushed because they resisted Christianity. Christianity spread in the Roman Empire only after it underwent some changes and was reconciled with Roman religion(s). Western dominion of the world came via scientific thought's triumph over the Medieval Church, and took the form of ruthless colonialism.

Islam, on the other hand, ruled almost half of the Old World for centuries. Its original purity was never diluted, its enemies were defeated many times, and it successfully defended itself against Christianity. Currently, Islam is once again rising as a pure, authentic religion, way of life, and hope for human salvation. Moreover, Prophet Jesus himself alludes to this by stating that the kingdom of God will be taken away from his followers and given to a people who will produce its fruit, as seen above.

Moreover, in a telling detail recorded in Sahih al-Bukhari and Muslim, Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, describes himself as the "capstone," thereby completing the building of Prophethood.

Another reference to the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, is found in the Gospel of John: Who is "the Paraklit, the Spirit of Truth," referred to by Jesus in the following verse:

But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Paraklit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment. (John 16:7-8)

In these verses, Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, is referred to as Paraklit, a Greek word meaning "the Distinguisher between Truth and Falsehood." Christian interpreters have given this word different meanings, such as "Counselor" (Gideon's International), "Helper" (American Bible Society), or "Comforter" (The Company of the Holy Bible), and claimed that it refers to the Holy Spirit. But they have never been able to establish whether the Holy Spirit came and did what Jesus foretold it would do.

If, according to Christians, the Holy Spirit is Archangel Gabriel, he came many times to Prophet Muhammad to bring Divine Revelation. Further, Jesus mentioned and predicted the Paraklit with various names, but always with the same function, as seen in the following verses:

When the Paraklit comes—the Spirit of Truth—who comes from the Father, he will testify about me. (John 15:26)

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking what is mine and making it known to you (John 16:12–14)

These are only a few of the Bible's allusions to Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings. The late Hussayn Jisri found 114 such allusions and quoted them in his Risala al-Hamidiya.

[1] Taken from the Turkish translation of the Bible, published in Istanbul in 1885.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

 

he invited me to Turkey and then said he was going to wait for me out the front of his house with a baseball bat. (Apparently having a game of baseball is some Turkish custom enacted before one enters the house ?

 

Chegg is not a Pagan like you having sex in front of altar in his house. Chegg does not insult martial arts that he does not understand like you. Chegg does not produce bullshit theories about history of religions like you. Chegg does not try to make meditation in the graveyards irritating the earth bound spirits of that graveyard like you. Chegg does not say he has a not existing Sufi teacher like you.

 

So do not insult Chegg.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

if some Muslims like to play baseball that's cool, although I imagine it is not allowed in some areas?

 

What is your source of information about those areas that do not allow to play baseball. Marvel Comics?

 

They play Cricket in Pakistan due to British Colonialism, do you remember Pakistan, the country you have read in the book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_in_Pakistan

[Isimsiz Biri]

Well, I was just thinking... Mohammad didn't play baseball. That makes it unlikely that a devout Muslim would play baseball. That would make it unlikely IB would have a baseball bat with which to greet Nungali. A devout Muslim also wouldn't lie, though, (although the concept of taqiyya comes to mind) so there must have been truth in that statement. That led me to suggest perhaps he alludes to some other object. Not sure what, though.

 

Baseball bats can be purchased in sports stores in Turkey. The price is 27,90 TRY (12,86 USD)

 

http://www.decathlon.com.tr/Big-Hit-Beyzbol-Sopasi,PR-27116.html

 

So I did not lie as you tried to mention. So you learnt about Taqiyya? Glad to hear that you stopped watching MTV. But you should try harder. There is a place called "library" Go and read some books there. You know what a book is, right?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya#Examples

In 16th century Spain, following the end of the Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula in 1492, Muslims and Jews were persecuted by the Catholic Monarchs and forced to convert to Christianity or face expulsion. The principle of taqiyya became very important for Muslims during the Inquisition in sixteenth century Spain, as it allowed them to convert to Christianity while remaining crypto-Muslims, practicing Islam in secret. In 1504, Ubayd Allah al-Wahrani, a Maliki mufti in Oran, issued a fatwā allowing Muslims to make extensive use of taqiyya in order to maintain their faith.^{[2][25][26][27]} This is seen as an exceptional case, since Islamic law prohibits conversion except in cases of mortal danger, and even then requires recantation as quickly as possible,^[28] and al-Wahrani's reasoning diverged from that of the majority of earlier Maliki Faqīhs.^[27]

 

The Spanish Inquisition ordered every Jew and Muslim to be killed if they kept their faith after invading Spain in 1492.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

The Alhambra Decree (also known as the Edict of Expulsion) was an edict issued on 31 March 1492 by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon) ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Kingdoms of Castile and Aragon (but not from the Kingdom of Navarre) and its territories and possessions by 31 July of that year.^[1]

The edict was formally revoked on 16 December 1968,^[2] following the Second Vatican Council.

 

The Jews of Spain emigrated to Istanbul, Ottoman Empire as Sultan Bayezid II invited and accepted them saving from certain death. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#Influx_of_Sephardi_Jews_from_Iberia)

 

How nice, isn't it Brian, the Christian "tolerance" against Jews and Muslims? It still continues today even in this forum. The edict was revoked in 1968!

 

So did you learn the true meaning of Taqiyya now?

Edited January 12, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

Thanks Isimsiz !

 

Good point. But just because another religion maybe newer on the scene does not necessarily make it more or less valid. Just like brand new construction projects can fall and collapse due to really bad design and foundations.

 

Remember that both bible scripture and experience declare that there are true prophets and false prophets. Hundreds of verses in the Bible speak of the faithful prophets that God used to teach, lead and correct his people. Moses was God's prophet(Deut 18:15). Balaam was an unfaithful or false prophet.(Num 22:7-32). Those who read the sacred history of the ancient Hebrews will note the constant conflict between true prophets of God such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel and an endless parade of wicked men like Hananiah the false prophet (Jer 28:1-17). Jesus warned of “false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves”(Matt 7:15) (where is that Picture Dorian ?).

 

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:24)

 

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it." (Luke 16:16)

 

So, according to the bible, the 360^o degree Pie you claim is certainly not correct and it doesn't support the idea that 'future prophets' or newer religions should take more of the pie.

 

e.g. When Jesus Christ said in the bible:- "No one gets to the Father unless its through me"

 

Going by that statement. The pie should be 360^o Christianity !!!

 

 

I think most of us believe in a (sovereign) God. The question is, what is the best way to get there. Isimsiz, WHAT IS THE ........

BEST WAY ????? (and why ?)

 

edit: the answer to that may go on forever, lol.

 

 

Blessings of joyful counter arguments !

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Another article of Mr. Fethullah Gulen about Gospels.

 

http://www.fethullahgulenchair.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=410:the-gospels-&catid=62:the-messenger-of-god-muhammad&Itemid=216

 

The Gospels

WRITTEN BY FETHULLAH GÜLEN

More emphatically and frequently than any other Prophet, Prophet Jesus gave good tidings of Muhammad. In the Gospel of John, Jesus promises his arrival using several names: But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Paraklit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment (John, 16:7-8).

In these verses, Prophet Muhammad is referred to as the Paraklit. This Greek word means "the Distinguisher between Truth and Falsehood." Christian interpreters have given it various meanings, such as Counselor (Gideons International), Helper (American Bible Society), or Comforter (the Company of the Holy Bible), and claim that it refers to the Holy Spirit. However, they have never been able to establish whether the Holy Spirit came down after Jesus and did what Jesus said it would do.

If, according to Christians, the Holy Spirit is Archangel Gabriel, he came many times to Prophet Muhammad to bring Divine Revelations. Further, Jesus mentioned and predicted the Paraklit with other names but the same function, as seen below:

When Paraklit comes—the Spirit of truth—who comes from the Father, he will testify about me. (John 15:26)

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking what is mine and making it known to you. (John 16:12–14)

I will not speak with you much longer, for the Prince of this world is coming. And I posses nothing of him. (John 14:30)

Who has come after Jesus other than Prophet Muhammad, as the Comforter who has comforted human beings against their fear of death, worries of the future, and spiritual ailments? As the Helper, who has helped humanity attain real peace and happiness in both worlds? As the Prince of the world, who has ruled almost half the world for fourteen centuries and has become the beloved of billions? As the Spirit of truth, who has testified to Jesus, brought glory to him by declaring his Prophethood against the Jews' denial and the Christians' false deification, and restoring his religion to its pristine purity through the Book revealed to him?

What shortcomings do Western Christians attribute to Prophet Muhammad, in contrast to Jesus and other Prophets, that, while almost all Middle Eastern Christians believed in him and became Muslim within a few decades of his death, they persist in denying him?

Mawlana Jalal al-Din al-Rumi, a great Sufi saint, expresses in the following stanza the good tidings of Prophet Muhammad found in the Gospel:

In the Gospel Mustafa is mentioned with his attributes. In him is the mystery of all the Prophets; he is the bringer of happiness. The Gospel mentions him with his external form and features, and also with his personal virtues and Prophetic qualities.

The Old and New Testaments, despite the questionable authenticity of their current versions, still contain references to Prophet Muhammad. We have quoted some of these. If, one day, the original copies or the least altered copies of the Torah and the Gospel are discovered, they will contain explicit references to the last Messenger. This may be deduced from the Traditions that say Christianity will be purified of its borrowed elements.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

Thanks Isimsiz !

 

Good point. But just because another religion maybe newer on the scene does not necessarily make it more or less valid. Just like brand new construction projects can fall and collapse due to really bad design and foundations.

 

Remember that both bible scripture and experience declare that there are true prophets and false prophets. Hundreds of verses in the Bible speak of the faithful prophets that God used to teach, lead and correct his people. Moses was God's prophet(Deut 18:15). Balaam was an unfaithful or false prophet.(Num 22:7-32). Those who read the sacred history of the ancient Hebrews will note the constant conflict between true prophets of God such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel and an endless parade of wicked men like Hananiah the false prophet (Jer 28:1-17). Jesus warned of “false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves”(Matt 7:15) (where is that Picture Dorian ?).

 

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:24)

 

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it." (Luke 16:16)

 

So, according to the bible, the 360^o degree Pie you claim is certainly not correct and it doesn't support the idea that 'future prophets' or newer religions should take more of the pie.

 

e.g. When Jesus Christ said in the bible:- "No one gets to the Father unless its through me"

 

Going by that statement. The pie should be 360^o Christianity !!!

 

 

I think most of us believe in a (sovereign) God. The question is, what is the best way to get there. Isimsiz, WHAT IS THE ........

BEST WAY ????? (and why ?)

 

edit: the answer to that may go on forever, lol.

 

 

Blessings of joyful counter arguments !

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

Another article of Mr. Fethullah Gulen about "Torah and The Psalms"

 

 

http://www.fethullahgulenchair.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=411:the-torah-and-the-psalms-&catid=62:the-messenger-of-god-muhammad&Itemid=216

 

The Torah and the Psalms

WRITTEN BY FETHULLAH GÜLEN

A Companion once asked God's Messenger to talk about himself. The Messenger remarked: "I am the one for whose coming Abraham prayed and of whom Jesus gave glad tidings." [1] This alludes to the following Qur'anic verses:

(Abraham prayed): "Our Lord, raise up in their midst a Messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Your signs, and teach them the Book and Wisdom, and purify them. Verily you are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (2:129)

When Jesus, son of Mary, said: "O children of Israel! I am indeed a Messenger of God to you, confirming that which was [revealed] before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name is Ahmad [the Praised One]." (61:6)

The Messenger of God was expected. All preceding Prophets spoke of and predicted his coming. The Qur'an (3:81) specifically states that God made a covenant with the Prophets that they would believe in and help the Messenger who would come after them and confirm the Message that they brought. [2]

Although subjected to distortion and alteration, the current versions of the Torah, the Gospel, and the Psalms still contain verses alluding to Prophet Muhammad. The late Husayn Jisri found 114 such allusions and quoted them in his Risala al-Hamidiya. We cite a few examples here, beginning with: The Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran (Deuteronomy 33:2).

This refers to the Prophethood of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, respectively. Sinai is where Prophet Moses spoke to God and received the Torah. Seir, a place in Palestine, is where Prophet Jesus received Divine Revelation. Paran is where God manifested Himself to humanity for the last time through His Revelation to Prophet Muhammad.

Paran is a mountain range in Makka. It is mentioned in the Torah (Genesis 21:19–21) as the desert area where Hagar was left by her husband Abraham to live with her son Ishmael. The Zamzam well also is located there. As stated in the Qur'an (14:35–37), Abraham left Hagar and Ishmael in the valley of Makka, which was then an uninhabited place between the mountain ranges of Paran.

It is because of such explicit predictions in the Torah that the Jews were expecting the Last Prophet and knew that he would appear in Makka.

The verse of Deuteronomy, according to the Arabic version published in London in 1944, continues: He came with myriads of holy ones; in his right hand was an axe of fire with two edges. This verse refers to the promised Prophet, who would have numerous Companions of the highest degree of sainthood and would be allowed—even ordered—to fight his enemies.

The following verses also promise his coming of:

The Lord said to me [Moses]: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you among their brothers; I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My name, I will Myself call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:17–19)

It is clear from these verses that a Prophet like you among their brothers means a Prophet from Ishmael's line, for Ishmael is the brother of Isaac, the forefather of the Children of Israel. The only Prophet who came after Moses and resembled him in many ways (e.g., bringing a new law and waging war against his enemies) is Prophet Muhammad. The Qur'an points to the same fact: We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness over you, even as we sent to Pharaoh a Messenger (73:15).

'Abd Allah ibn 'Amr, an ascetic warned by the Prophet not to neglect sleeping with his wife and to fast only on alternate days, is reported to have said: "It was common knowledge to the communities of previous religions that God would send a Prophet to humanity as a bearer of good tidings and a warner. I personally read in the Torah these verses about him:

We have sent you, O Prophet, to humanity as a bearer of good tidings and a warner, and as a support and refuge for the common folk. You are My servant and Messenger. I have called you Mutawakkil [the one who puts his trust in God]. He is not one rude, repelling and angry, and shouting in the streets. He does not repel evil with evil; instead, he excuses and forgives. God will not make him die before He guides through him the deviating nation to the right path by declaring there is no deity but God." [3]

This report was confirmed by 'Abd Allah ibn Salam and Ka'b al-Akhbar, the most learned scholars of the Jewish community at the time of the Prophet. They later converted to Islam.

We also read about Muhammad in the Psalms of David:

He will rule from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the Earth. The desert tribes will bow before him, and his enemies will lick the dust. The kings of Tarsish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present gifts to him. All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him, for he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy, and save the needy from death. He will rescue them from oppression and violence, for precious is their blood in his sight. Long may he live! May gold from Sheba be given to him. May people ever pray for him and bless him all day long. Let corn abound throughout the land; on the tops of the hills may it sway. May his name endure for ever; may it continue as long as the sun. All nations will be blessed through him, and they will call him blessed. (Psalms 72:8–17)

[1] Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 11:384.

[2] Behold, Allah took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom. Then a Messenger comes to you, confirming what is with you. Believe in him and help him. Allah asked: "Do you agree, and take this Covenant as binding?" They replied: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

[3] Bukhari, Buyu', 50; Ibn Hanbal, 2:174.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Thanks Isimsiz !

 

Good point. But just because another religion maybe newer on the scene does not necessarily make it more or less valid. Just like brand new construction projects can fall and collapse due to really bad design and foundations.

 

Remember that both bible scripture and experience declare that there are true prophets and false prophets. Hundreds of verses in the Bible speak of the faithful prophets that God used to teach, lead and correct his people. Moses was God's prophet(Deut 18:15). Balaam was an unfaithful or false prophet.(Num 22:7-32). Those who read the sacred history of the ancient Hebrews will note the constant conflict between true prophets of God such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel and an endless parade of wicked men like Hananiah the false prophet (Jer 28:1-17). Jesus warned of “false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves”(Matt 7:15) (where is that Picture Dorian ?).

 

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matt 24:24)

 

“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it." (Luke 16:16)

 

So, according to the bible, the 360^o degree Pie you claim is certainly not correct and it doesn't support the idea that 'future prophets' or newer religions should take more of the pie.

 

e.g. When Jesus Christ said in the bible:- "No one gets to the Father unless its through me"

 

Going by that statement. The pie should be 360^o Christianity !!!

 

 

I think most of us believe in a (sovereign) God. The question is, what is the best way to get there. Isimsiz, WHAT IS THE ........

BEST WAY ????? (and why ?)

 

edit: the answer to that may go on forever, lol.

 

 

Blessings of joyful counter arguments !

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

 

 

http://www.fethullahgulenchair.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=409:many-others-awaited-the-prophet-&catid=62:the-messenger-of-god-muhammad&Itemid=216

Many Others Awaited the Prophet

WRITTEN BY FETHULLAH GÜLEN

Owing to the numerous predictions of his coming, eve-ryone was waiting for Prophet Muhammad. In that dark era of human history, humanity was waiting for one who would destroy unbelief and breathe new life into the world. Judaism and Christianity, being God-revealed religions in origin, had no more to offer. Those who had studied the old books without prejudice, especially the monk Bahira, were waiting for him to come.

Many Makkans also were waiting, one of the foremost being Zayd ibn 'Amr, 'Umar ibn al-Khattab's uncle. He had rejected idolatry, led a pure life, and used to address people as follows: "There's no good in the idols you worship. I know of a religion that will soon be taught and spread. It will be proclaimed no later than a few years from now, but I don't know whether I'll live long enough to witness it."

According to 'Amr ibn Rabi'a, Zayd gave a detailed description of the expected Prophet:

I am expecting a Prophet who is about to come. He will appear among Ishmael's descendants and 'Abd al-Muttalib's grandsons. He is of middle height, neither too tall nor too short. His hair is neither curly nor straight. His name is Ahmad. His birthplace is Makka. His people will force him to leave Makka, and he will emigrate to Yathrib (Madina), where his religion will spread. I have traveled from place to place searching for Abraham's religion. However, all the Jewish and Christian scholars I spoke to advised me to wait for him. He is the Last Prophet; no Prophet will come after him. I may not live long enough to see him, but I have believed in him.

At the end of his introduction, Zayd told 'Amr ibn Rabi'a: "If you live long enough to see him, greet him for me." Years passed before Prophet Muhammad declared his Prophethood. 'Amr ibn Rabi'a, having declared his faith to the Prophet, explained what Zayd had told him and conveyed his greetings. Muhammad returned his greetings and added: "I saw Zayd in Paradise, trailing his robes." [1]

Among those seeking the truth was Waraqa ibn Nawfal, a Christian scholar and paternal cousin of Khadija, wife of Muhammad. When the first Revelation came to Prophet Muhammad, Khadija told Waraqa what had happened. Waraqa replied: "Muhammad is a truthful man. What he saw is that which occurs at the beginning of Prophethood. The being who came to him is Gabriel, who also came to Moses and Jesus. Muhammad will be a Prophet. If I live long enough to witness his declaration of Prophethood, I will believe in him and support him." [2]

One of those seeking the Last Prophet was the Jew 'Abd Allah ibn Salam. The Jews had such confidence in him that they called him "the lord, son of a lord." His greatness equaled that of even the greatest Companions, such as Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and God would consider his testimony to the Qur'an equal to the testimony of a people: Say: "Have you considered? If it be from God, and you do not believe in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel bears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud, God guides not the people of the evildoers." (46:10)

This great Companion describes how he found the Prophet:

When God's Messenger emigrated to Madina, I went to see him, as did everyone else. He was sitting amidst a group of people when I went in, and saying: "Give food to others and greet them." His speech was so sweet and his face so charming that I said to myself: "I swear by God that one with such a face cannot lie." Without delay I declared my belief in him. [3]

The Jews and Christians of that time recognized God's Messenger. As stated in the Qur'an, They recognize him as they recognize their sons (2:146). After his conversion, 'Umar asked 'Abd Allah ibn Salam if he had recognized God's Messenger. "I recognized him," Ibn Salam answered, and added: "I may doubt my children—my wife might have deceived me; but I have no doubt about God's Messenger being the Last Prophet." [4]

Although the Jews and Christians recognized him, most envied him and, because of their prejudice and envy, did not believe:

When there came to them a Book from God confirming what was with them—and they aforetime prayed for victory over the unbelievers—when there came to them what they recognized, they disbelieved in it; and the curse of God is on the unbelievers. (2:89)

After his conversion, 'Abd Allah ibn Salam said to God's Messenger: "O Messenger of God, hide me in a corner and then summon all the Jewish scholars in Madina to ask about me and my father. Their assessment will certainly be positive. Then let me come out to declare my conversion." God's Messenger accepted this suggestion. Ibn Salam hid in a corner and, when the Jewish scholars gathered, God's Messenger asked them what they thought of Ibn Salam and his father. All of them answered: "They are among our noblest and most learned people." Upon this, God's Messenger asked again: "How would you react if he affirms me?" They responded: "It is impossible that he will affirm you!" Ibn Salam then came out and declared his conversion, whereupon the Jewish scholars immediately changed their attitude and retorted: "Ibn Salam is the most wicked among us, and the son of the most wicked." [5]

[1] Ibn Kathir, Al-Bidaya, 2:223.

[2] Bukhari, Bad'u al-Wahy, 3.

[3] Ibn Hanbal, 5:451.

[4] Mukhtasar Tafsir Ibn al-Kathir, 1:140.

[5] Bukhari, al-Anbiya', Bab Khalq Adam, 2.

Prophet Muhammad was one who had been sought for centuries. Salman al-Farisi was one of those seekers. Originally a Magian (a fire worshipper), he had left his native Persia due to his burning desire to find the eternal truth. Before embracing Islam, he worked for several Christian monks, the last of whom advised Salman on his deathbed:

Son, there is nobody left to whom I can commend you. But according to what we read in our books, the Last Prophet is about to appear. He will come with the pure creed of Abraham and will appear in the place to which Abraham migrated. Nevertheless, he will emigrate to another place and settle there. There are explicit signs of his Prophethood. For example, he will not eat of charity but will accept gifts, and the seal of Prophethood will be between his shoulders.

Now, let Salman narrate the rest of his story: I joined a caravan heading for the place mentioned by the late monk. When we arrived at Wadi al-Qura', they sold me to a Jew as a slave. When I saw gardens of date palms, I thought the Prophet would emigrate to this place. While I was working there, another Jew from the Banu Qurayza bought me and took me to Madina. I began working in his datepalm garden. There was no news yet of God's Messenger. However, one day I was harvesting dates when a cousin of my Jewish owner came up hurriedly. He said in great anger: "Damn itl! The people are flocking to Quba. A man from Makka, who claims Prophethood, has come. They think he's a real Prophet."

I began to tremble with excitement. I climbed down from the tree and asked: "What are you talking about?" My owner saw my excitement and slapped my face with the back of his hand, saying: "It doesn't concern you, mind your own business!"

On the same day, as the sun set, I went to him in Quba and gave him as alms the food I had brought with me. God's Mes-senger did not touch it, but said to those around him: "Help yourself to this." I told myself: "This is the first sign." On another occasion I gave him something as a gift. He accepted it and ate it with his Companions. "This is the second sign," I told myself.

Once, I attended the funeral for a deceased Companion. I came close to God's Messenger in the cemetery. After greeting him, I stood behind him in the hope of seeing the Seal of Prophethood. His shoulders were bare, and the seal was just as the monk had described it. I couldn't help kissing it in tears, after which I told him my story. He was very pleased and wanted his Companions to hear my story. [6]

People who sincerely sought him found him. Whoever seeks him will find him, whereas those who remain obstinant and ruled by their evil-commanding selves will drown in unbelief and hypocrisy. Mughira ibn Shu'ba narrates:

One day I was with Abu Jahl in Makka. God's Messenger came over and invited us to accept Islam. Abu Jahl rebuked him, saying: "If you are doing this so that we will testify be-fore God in the other world that you performed your mission of Prophethood, we will do it. Leave us then, O man, to ourselves!" When God's Messenger left us, I asked Abu Jahl if he admitted Muhammad's Prophethood. He said that he did, and then added: "I know he is truly a Prophet. Nevertheless, we compete with the Hashimites in everything. They have been boasting of providing food and water to the pilgrims. Now if they begin to boast of having a Prophet, I won't be able to en-dure it at all." [7]

This is typical of the thoughts cherished by the Abu Jahls of the past and the present. Intelligent people who are not prejudiced and whose willpower is not paralyzed cannot help but believe in Islam and God's Messenger. In this respect, God says to His holy Messenger: We know well that their talk grieves you; in truth they deny not you, but it is the signs of God that the evildoers condemn (6:33).

How could they accuse him of lying, for he was known by everybody as al-Amin (the truthful one)? The testimony of one of his bitterest enemies, 'Utba ibn Abi Rabi'a, proves that even his enemies admitted his truthfulness.

The Qurayshi leaders met to discuss how to prevent the spread of Islam. They decided to send 'Utba to God's Messenger. 'Utba went with the hope of persuading him to stop. He asked: "Who is better, O Muhammad, you or your father?" God's Messenger did not answer, probably because silence is the best answer to such an absurd question. 'Utba continued: "If your father was better than you, he cannot have been following the religion you are now preaching. If, by contrast, you are better than your father, then I am ready to listen to what you have to say."

God's Messenger inquired: "Is that all you intend to say?" 'Utba said that it was, and fell silent. Then, God's Messenger knelt and began reciting from Sura al-Fussilat. By the time he reached: But if they turn away, then "I warn you of a thunderbolt [as fell in times past upon the tribes] of 'Ad and Thamud" (41:13), 'Utba was trembling as if caught by fever. He had to put his hand on the lips of God's Messenger and said: "Please stop, for the sake of the God in whom you believe!" 'Utba returned home bewildered.

The Qurayshi leaders were waiting for him anxiously. Fearing that 'Utba might have accepted Islam, Abu Jahl knocked at his door and, when admitted, angered 'Utba by saying: "I heard Muhammad treated you very generously and feasted you, and in return you believed in him. This is what the people are saying." Angrily, "Utba replied: "You know I don't need his feating. I am richer than all of you. But his words shook me. They weren't poetry, nor did they resemble those of a soothsayer. I don't know how I should respond. He's a truthful person. While I was listening to his recitation, I feared that what happened to 'Ad and Thamud might happen to us." [8]

They had been expecting a Prophet for a long time. Everybody knew al-Amin's character, and no one had ever heard him lie. They were charmed by his personality and the Qur'an's eloquence, but yet could not overcome their pride and arrogance, or the envy and rivalry, and proclaim their belief. Nor could they bring their habits and lifestyle into accord with his Message. Is this not true of all those who, knowing the truth, persist in unbelief?

[6] Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1:228–34.

[7] Kanz al-'Ummal, 14:39-40; Ibn Kathir, 3:83.

[8] Ibn Kathir, 3:80-81; Ibn Hisham, 1:313.

[Jeff]

 

 

True, but also...

 

Psalms 82:5-6

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

 

Matthew 21:21-22

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

[chegg]

.

Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[Nungali]

I think "baseball bat" might have been a euphemism...

Oh gosh! That is indeed possible .... I wonder what unpleasantness it was covering up ?