The Compassionate Daoist vs. the Compassionate buddhist

[Cheshire Cat]

I open this thread to pursue the importance of compassion in one's own practice and to understand how relevant it is on the long-term cultivation.

 

The first thing that I notice is that buddhism (mahayana) places a great emphasis on developing compassion: it is considered to be the first half of the "enlightenment business".

And we have self-sacrifice, everything done for the sake of others, etc...

Jesus Christ could be a model-example of the bodhisattva ideal.

 

Then, we have the daoists... the earliest available sources (Lao Tzu, Chuang-tzu) aren't that concerned about compassion. Yes, it's a good thing to have... but it seems that they don't like the extremes that the concept of boundless, selfless compassion reaches in buddhism.

 

Maybe, it's just a wrong impression...

 

Hope to listen to insights from you.

Thank you! :-)

Edited September 5, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[Marblehead]

Yep. Wrong impression. Hehehe.

 

One of Lao Tzu's Three Treasures is Compassion.

 

In one of Chuang Tzu's stories he tells of returning home to find a robber stealing his clothes and responds that he wished only that he had more clothes that the robber could have.

 

But we don't "practice" compassion. That is contrived and not true compassion. In Taoism compassion arises naturally when we attain a state of knowing when we have enough and we can share our excess with others, with no thought of anything in return. Giving is not restricted to just material things but things of the mind as well. Wishing one well even after they have pissed you off.

 

So, it is my opinion that if one constantly talks about how compassionate they are they are only feeding their own ego and even though they might be doing good things for others it is mostly doing it for their own gratification.

[Apech]

I think the unfortunate thing about 'compassion' as an idea is that it generates a lot of strangeness in people. By this I mean false attitudes and feelings. This is because it is misunderstood.

 

In Buddhism the word is bodhicitta which actually means being awake. That is awake to reality. This means you recognise the true nature of things and because of this you become compassionate to others (and yourself). It is not really to do with feelings and certainly not sentiment ... it is to do with understanding. As soon as you understand the true situation for yourself and others you become compassionate.

[Brian]

<snip>

 

But we don't "practice" compassion. That is contrived and not true compassion.

 

</snip>

 

I think this is worth repeating.

 

I am reminded of the oxymoronic phrase "act sincere" -- practicing compassion is a hollow shell while being compassionate radiates out from one's core. This is not a reflection on Buddhism, Taoism or Christianity, of course, so much as a commentary on superficiality.

 

In a similar vein, obligatory charity is not charity...

[doc benway]

Excellent thread DAO rain TAO. Really glad you posted this. It's a topic that's been close to my heart for some time now so please forgive the long post. I work pretty hard on this in myself. I still fall on my face quite often but it's getting better.

 

In Buddhism, the teachings regarding compassion are very explicit and central to the view and many practices.

It seems to be recognized that to actually achieve the level of understanding where true compassion, bodhicitta, naturally arises may be very difficult and a long process (and very easy and quick for a few, fortunate folks). For most people, I suspect it takes a very long time to get there and many never make it.

 

While waiting and working towards that state, one opportunity we have is to begin to practice acts of kindness and generosity.

First, it may help us to achieve the awakened state simply because compassion is our natural state and practicing it will allow us to come closer and closer with less and less effort.

Second, it will have a positive influence on our karmic make up (acts of kindness and generosity tend to germinate more of the same).

And third, it will generally be beneficial to those we come in contact with and foster their health, well being, and growth.

 

Daoism contains much less explicit teachings about compassion.

Sure, we can find a quote here and there, but it is much more subtle.

I don't fully understand why that is. Perhaps it's an idiosyncrasy related to Chinese culture and values, and perhaps something altogether different.

 

I agree with MH and Apech, that real compassion is that which flows naturally from the core of our being once we awaken to our natural state. Once it is felt it is like a bell that can't be un-rung (to quote my friend Rene), although it still requires practice and diligence to keep it alive in our daily lives until such time as it becomes effortless. I think there are very few of us who ever reach that point in life. Daoist cultivation also has the potential to lead us to this type of awakening but, as mentioned above, it is a long path and there is no guarantee for success.

 

I agree with MH that practicing compassion is different from being a conduit for the natural flow of true compassion. There is a selfishness to intentionally compassionate acts. I love Anthony Demello's take on this. Here is an excerpt from his book "Awareness":

 

"Charity is really self-interest masquerading under the form of altruism. You say that it is very difficult to accept that there may be times when you are not honest to goodness really trying to be loving or trustful. Let me simplify it. Let's make it as simple as possible. Let's even make it as blunt and extreme as possible, at least to begin with. There are two types of selfishness. The first type is the one where I give myself the pleasure of pleasing myself. That's what we generally call self-centeredness. The second is when I give myself the pleasure of pleasing others. That would be a more refined kind of selfishness."

 

He later goes on to add a third type of selfishness - when I do something to avoid feeling guilty. He describes this as the least desirable motivation for action.

 

Nevertheless, until we come to a place where we see our true nature and feel the unmistakable truth deep in the core of our being that guides us to a natural display of real compassion, what are we to do? Simply ignore the opportunity to offer those around us love, support, kindness, generosity, and sincerity, because there is some degree of self interest at the root of it? Or make the extra effort to actually try and emulate our ideal for true compassion while waiting for the real thing to show up?

 

I'll tell you something - the person on the receiving end of our kindness and generosity won't be too concerned with your motivation and you might just find that the difference between contrived compassion and true bodhicitta gets smaller and smaller over time until you can't tell the difference. While I acknowledge that selfish compassion can also be misguided and therefore even harmful (Stuart Wilde has some interesting things to say on this topic), I've found that actually making an effort to practice compassionate acts has been very rewarding for me. And the more you try, the easier it gets, and the less your motivation is even relevant.

 

It's kind of like sex - the true meaning of sex between two animals of opposite gender seems to be primarily related to reproduction and yet it's a wonderful thing to just practice when we're not quite ready for the real thing.

(And please - this is not in any way meant to be a slam to homosexuality, I'm just making a point)

 

Peace

... and happy new year to my Jewish friends.

[Brian]

<snip>

 

"Charity is really self-interest masquerading under the form of altruism..."

 

</snip>

 

I'd go a step more, Steve, and say that every act/decision is really one of self-interest (even the self-destructive ones) and that what we sometimes perceive as altruism or selflessness is merely indicative of the degree of abstraction from immediate gratification.

Edited September 5, 2013 by A Seeker

[Basher]

Excellent thread DAO rain TAO. Really glad you posted this. It's a topic that's been close to my heart for some time now so please forgive the long post. I work pretty hard on this in myself. I still fall on my face quite often but it's getting better.

Totally Agree, nice one DRT.

Also, luckily, whenever I fall on my Face it makes me even more Handsome. (LOL)

 

I agree with MH that practicing compassion is different from being a conduit for the natural flow of true compassion. There is a selfishness to intentionally compassionate acts.

 

Again, I think Marblehead has hit the nail on the head, here.

 

I'll tell you something - the person on the receiving end of our kindness and generosity won't be too concerned with your motivation and you might just find that the difference between contrived compassion and true bodhicitta gets smaller and smaller over time until you can't tell the difference.

 

Absolutely.

 

It's kind of like sex - the true meaning of sex between two animals of opposite gender seems to be primarily related to reproduction and yet it's a wonderful thing to just practice when we're not quite ready for the real thing.

(And please - this is not in any way meant to be a slam to homosexuality, I'm just making a point)

 

I'm staying right away from that one...LOL

 

Nice post Steve.

[Cheshire Cat]

Thank you very much for your posts ! :-)

 

I don't want to say that daoists have no compassion. I was just pointing that -although important-, compassion is not that important as in buddhism.

 

from http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/compassion.htm

 

 

The Buddha taught that to realize enlightenment, a person must develop two qualities: wisdom and compassion. [...]

 

The word usually translated as "compassion" is karuna, which is understood to mean active sympathy or a willingness to bear the pain of others. In practice, prajna gives rise to karuna, and karuna gives rise to prajna. Truly, you can't have one without the other. They are a means to realizing enlightenment, and they are also enlighenment manifested.

[...]

 

In Buddhism, the ideal of practice is to selflessly act to alleviate suffering wherever it appears.

[...]

(this means also, to act against our own interests if necessary. I have heard of a few examples of bodhisattvas who sacrificed their lives for the sake of others)

 

In The Essence of the Heart Sutra, His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote,

"According to Buddhism, compassion is an aspiration, a state of mind, wanting others to be free from suffering. It's not passive -- it's not empathy alone -- but rather an empathetic altruism that actively strives to free others from suffering. Genuine compassion must have both wisdom and lovingkindness. That is to say, one must understand the nature of the suffering from which we wish to free others (this is wisdom), and one must experience deep intimacy and empathy with other sentient beings (this is lovingkindness)."

[...]

 

In buddhism, the ideal is the bodhisattvas who actively work for the sake of others, while in daoism the perfected one is the hermit who achieves immortality and leaves the "human level" forever.

Sure, he develops compassion... but not the "missionary compassion" of the buddhist sage.

Edited September 6, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[Apech]

Thank you very much for your posts ! :-)

 

I don't want to say that daoists have no compassion. I was just pointing that -although important-, compassion is not that important as in buddhism.

 

from http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/compassion.htm

 

 

 

In buddhism, the ideal is the bodhisattvas who actively work for the sake of others, while in daoism the perfected one is the hermit who achieves immortality and leaves the "human level" forever.

Sure, he develops compassion... but not the "missionary compassion" of the buddhist sage.

 

Don't get your Buddhism from About.com.

[Rara]

I went to Mahayana Buddhist temples for a while ... after going through something quite major in life I just sorta ended up there. I ended up reading all about their way and began practicing it for a short while.

 

I noticed that a lot of what they taught to people just "getting into Buddhism" was heavily based on compassion. They have a lot of emphasis on affirmations in meditation for compassion. So I began practicing these...and very soon, I noticed I had become confused. I didn't even know why I was doing it.

 

So, I was speaking about this on another forum and a Tai Chi teacher came out and said "But aren't you already a compassionate person?"

 

This hit the nail on the head. I didn't need much in a way of social conditioning - I'm already compassionate.

 

From what I've learnt, meditation and contemplation will lead us there, like many have already said in this thread. Buddhism is just another way for those that require some guidance to help change their direction...

[Apech]

I went to Mahayana Buddhist temples for a while ... after going through something quite major in life I just sorta ended up there. I ended up reading all about their way and began practicing it for a short while.

 

I noticed that a lot of what they taught to people just "getting into Buddhism" was heavily based on compassion. They have a lot of emphasis on affirmations in meditation for compassion. So I began practicing these...and very soon, I noticed I had become confused. I didn't even know why I was doing it.

 

So, I was speaking about this on another forum and a Tai Chi teacher came out and said "But aren't you already a compassionate person?"

 

This hit the nail on the head. I didn't need much in a way of social conditioning - I'm already compassionate.

 

From what I've learnt, meditation and contemplation will lead us there, like many have already said in this thread. Buddhism is just another way for those that require some guidance to help change their direction...

 

Not really. But from what you say I would guess you have no connection to it so its not for you.

[Stosh]

Wishing I had more to give someone isnt really a great example of compassion , as the word is usually meant .. the following unspoken line is , then he wouldnt leave me with nothing. Compassion without a target is a feeling felt by the practitioner , how can that be seen as anything but self involved? So it isnt exactly compassionate either.

Extending beyond oneself, ,ones sense of self , , to accept other stuff as one accepts self ,, is why compassion leads to acceptance , acceptance to peace , peace to tranquility , and tranquility to a loss of sense of self.

[Jetsun]

Buddhism works as a religion as well as a path to liberation so it includes the morality side as a means of conditioning people in the right direction socially, but most of us in the West have been heavily conditioned already by Christian based morality so in my opinion that religious aspect is not really of great importance for a lot if us. Most people are so sick of the way it is done in Christian culture with guilt instead of reason that they are more likely to rebel against another lecture on morality than absorb it as useful.

 

But the other level of compassion in Buddhism is the liberation aspect or Bodhicitta which is unlimited non discriminatory compassion, which is probably what the Buddha was referring to when saying you need compassion to achieve enlightenment.

[Marblehead]

... and tranquility to a loss of sense of self.

No, I can't go that far. I don't want to lose my Self.

[Stosh]

No, I can't go that far. I don't want to lose my Self.

Then dont ,Im just seeing at a balm , a mitigation of the harshness one can experience

but theres still stuff for you to do and see and feel so Im not encouraging getting "lost"

[Marblehead]

Then dont ,Im just seeing at a balm , a mitigation of the harshness one can experience

but theres still stuff for you to do and see and feel so Im not encouraging getting "lost"

Yeah, I knew what you were speaking to but I just felt the need to point that aspect of living out to any of our readers.

[Rara]

Not really. But from what you say I would guess you have no connection to it so its not for you.

 

What I meant was that the entry level teaching in the temple local to me seems to use a one-size fits all approach. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's book "Modern Buddhism" (this is the main teacher of this specific center) is full of things that "we must" meditate on in order to obtain enlightenment. Personally, it left me confused because I started believing that there were things wrong with me that weren't.

 

But yes, you are right, it doesn't work for me but I can see how it can work for those in need of learning these things. Apologies if this looked like a generalisation of Buddhism - that wasn't what I meant. It was specific to the experience I had through a specific lineage here in the North of England.

[Apech]

What I meant was that the entry level teaching in the temple local to me seems to use a one-size fits all approach. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's book "Modern Buddhism" (this is the main teacher of this specific center) is full of things that "we must" meditate on in order to obtain enlightenment. Personally, it left me confused because I started believing that there were things wrong with me that weren't.

 

But yes, you are right, it doesn't work for me but I can see how it can work for those in need of learning these things. Apologies if this looked like a generalisation of Buddhism - that wasn't what I meant. It was specific to the experience I had through a specific lineage here in the North of England.

 

 

New Kapampa ... well my lips are sealed ... plenty of other stuff in North of England I know an excellent teacher in Manchester.

[konchog uma]

I'd go a step more, Steve, and say that every act/decision is really one of self-interest (even the self-destructive ones) and that what we sometimes perceive as altruism or selflessness is merely indicative of the degree of abstraction from immediate gratification.

 

can you explain why you think all acts and decisions are born out of self-interest? how do you contrast this to the amount of cooperation and altruism found in nature, where trees, plants, and animals are seemingly devoid of concept of self?

 

to me, if you are wrapped up in your self-concept and self-cherishing, all your decisions will be made from that POV because thats the only one you possess. But that doesn't mean that there aren't other points of view available.

 

well my lips are sealed

 

just wanted to like that twice, thanks

[Brian]

Sure!

 

It is my considered opinion that the motivation for human decisions (and, so far as I can tell, those of plants & animals) are inherently selfish in nature, even the seemingly altruistic ones. I don't see this as necessarily "negative" but simply as an observation of nature. Actually, I would love to have someone present a situation that is not inherently selfish in nature but so far no one has ever done so. Cases often pointed out include Mother Teresa's work in Calcutta or a mother sacrificing her own life to save her child, for instance, but these are merely cases in which the "gratification" is more abstracted. In the first case, because she believed it was required of her and her reward would be in heaven and, in the second case, because she wouldn't be able to live with herself if she didn't.

 

Our perception of self has a lot to do with this, you see -- we may "feel better" with one set of actions but we may "feel better about ourselves" with a different set of actions. The former motive is more primitive in origin while the latter is more abstracted. Imagine, for instance, a man stumbling upon a group of other men engaged in a nefarious activity -- let's say a gas station holdup. The perpetrators are acting out of self-gratification, the clerk likely capitulating out of self-preservation and the passer-by is presented with several options. He can turn and walk away, he can step out of sight and call the police or he can attempt to intervene, among other options. His reaction is largely based on his conscious or unconscious conditioning and his ability to abstract that gratification or lack thereof. Such a decision is rarely a deeply contemplated one although it is likely to be heavily rationalized after the fact, especially if he opted for the less abstracted path.

 

Part of the goal of "cultivation" or "enlightenment" or "awareness" (or whatever) is to be cognizant of our own filters, conditioning, decision-making processes, motivations, etc., so that our choices and actions are more conscious and more abstracted. Another part of the goal is to strive to align and expand our concept of "self" to higher and higher abstractions, expanding "self" to include family, community, planet, dao. Along this personal journey, one discovers not only that one is part of something bigger than the mundane and corporeal shell briefly occupied but that there truly is a foundational principle of goodness, and that the highest level of abstraction is alignment with this "light."

 

It is by recognizing and integrating an awareness of this "selfishness," and then consciously abstracting this awareness, that one moves away from lizard-brain behavior and towards the light.

 

I haven't seen anything in nature that suggests it is any different for our non-human friends and I suspect some of them (especially trees) move through a similar progression of abstraction.

[Marblehead]

That's a lot to think about Seeker. Don't think too much - save some time for living naturally.

[konchog uma]

Actually, I would love to have someone present a situation that is not inherently selfish in nature but so far no one has ever done so.

 

I suggest Darwin's Origin of the Species if you have the time to read it. He only uses the phrase "survival of the fittest" twice in the entire work, while mentioning cooperation and altruism hundreds of times in many different examples. Here's something a little shorter for you

 

[Brian]

I suggest Darwin's Origin of the Species if you have the time to read it. He only uses the phrase "survival of the fittest" twice in the entire work, while mentioning cooperation and altruism hundreds of times in many different examples. Here's something a little shorter for you

<snip>

 

Yep, read it. More than once, actually. In fact, I carry an e-copy around with me. Interesting book albeit a bit dry. Mostly wrong, unfortunately, in both details and latter-day "big picture" interpretations and I never reference it as an authoritative source.

 

Awesome video! Thank you for sharing. I practice "tree qigong," BTW, and recognize them as sentient beings of light. That's part of the reason why I specifically mentioned trees in my last sentence above. I think that video supports my position rather nicely.

 

Edited September 6, 2013 by A Seeker

[xor]

You can define any action coming from yourself(or others) as selfish. Does that change anything or is it just a preference?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I guess it really depends on who one gets their teaching from as a representative of each tradition.

 

Chogyam Trungpa was not afraid to talk about foolish compassion, and the necessity at times to be uncompassionate when someone is pushing you from the path without justifiable reason.

 

There are many stories like this with enlightened Buddhist masters who were not afraid to be shocking in their sudden "switch" on people when they were out of line.

 

I think the base of compassion in both Buddhism and Taoism is seeing beyond self. This is a practice in all mystical traditions and cultures. Who does it more is a matter of individuals, individual choice, and circumstances.

 

There might be a difference in the practice of compassion too when we consider that showing too much compassion can infantalize and rob certain people of the chance to learn autonomy. Further, we might help someone do something they shouldn't because we have unyielding compassion for them. So to say what IS compassionate can change all the time. I think this is known in all cultures and traditions as well.

 

Though I don't agree with all of The Seekers points, but I think it's true that the staunch practice of compassion is especially to help one maintain their Bodhi mind or Dao mind, while in turn increasing harmony in their environment which is for the greater good, circulating this force of harmony like new money into a small economy - if people learn to keep on circulating it, it will come back...

 

So really the Dalai Lama is running a compassion pyramid scheme!!!

 

(joking, joking, joking....)