Lao Tzu and the "belly"

[Rara]

I don't usually read interpretations for TTC because I like to figure things out for myself. Now I've done enough thinking, I say I'm ready to ask for some interpretations.

 

Lao Tzu talks a lot about the filling of bellies. What does he/do you think he means?

 

My view is that he is talking about feeding until satisfied...whether that is with chi, food or as metaphorical as anything in life...

 

What are your thoughts?

[Marblehead]

I've read your post. I will wait for others to respond but I will do so later.

[ChiDragon]

I've read your post. Please do not just read one line and expect to reach a logical conclusion.......

[dawei]

Lao Tzu talks a lot about the filling of bellies. What does he/do you think he means?

 

My view is that he is talking about feeding until satisfied...whether that is with chi, food or as metaphorical as anything in life...

 

What are your thoughts?

 

I am not so sure that LZ talks a lot about filling of bellies; The main chapter is 3 but 12 helps to shed light on the issue. As well, one main theme of LZ is knowing when enough is enough. I think this helps round out the meaning on some level; this may be what you are suggesting about "until satisfied".

 

I see the following going on:

1. Ch. 3: Governing the state is a microcosm for governing the self. The message is to calm the mind (reduce the clutter and desires) and enrich the basic needs (food via the stomach). As the heart/mind is the upper energy centers and the stomach is the lower energy center, LZ is clearly encouraging the care of the lower energy center, also known as the lower brain [of intuition].

2. Ch. 12: This is another clear message that LZ does not play to the [outer] senses/perceptions but to the basic [inner] needs.

3. Knowing when enough is enough and when to stop. Don't seek or aspire to some level based on senses; following an inner knowing of when to stop.

4. Empty yet full; Filled and never empty. I think this is a minor theme when applied to these ideas but they are showing the wholeness of the body; the heart/mind may be empty but the lower energy centers may be full.

 

 

Adding a note to Ch. 9 which says (Tr. Hendricks of the Guodian text):

To accumulate until you have filled it

Is not so good as stopping in time.

 

Thus filling is not as important as simply knowing when enough is enough...

Edited September 6, 2013 by dawei

[Rara]

I've read your post. Please do not just read one line and expect to reach a logical conclusion.......

 

Oh sure! For myself, it's a case of putting this into context with the overall messages in the text.

 

Thus filling is not as important as simply knowing when enough is enough...

 

Yes, as we can mindlessly overfill which leads to imbalance.

 

Thanks so far for the responses!

[Marblehead]

Dawei's post is very good although I am disappointed that he didn't mention Chapter 80.

 

Fill the belly and empty the mind. Return to a simple life where all the needs for a happy life are satisfied and we have no reason to get involved in the lives of others.

 

Yes, knowing when we have enough, knowing when to stop. Fill the belly; being physically comforable, where is the need to bother our mind with the affairs of others? With the belly full, we can rest the belly (the physical body) and rest the mind as well.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Well done folks

, is your belly full Rara? Or are you going back for 'seconds' ?

[Rara]

Well done folks , is your belly full Rara? Or are you going back for 'seconds' ?

 

Sometimes...

 

I'm temperamental

[dawei]

Dawei's post is very good although I am disappointed that he didn't mention Chapter 80.

 

Fill the belly and empty the mind. Return to a simple life

 

I think that is a reasonable chapter to bring in too. I like how Ch. 80 links to the idea of 'keeping one's feet on the ground' as seen in Ch. 8.

[Stosh]

Sometimes...

 

I'm temperamental

Hmmm

So am I ,

do you know why it is -(opinion)- that is so for you?

Is it not living in the present ?

or is it living in the present ?

or what?

I could use some input on this,

something ( not vague ), might be very illuminating.

[Marblehead]

So am I ,

So am I but I learned to control it by becoming an ass.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 3 Rule with Wu Wei.
1. Dejectedly recruiting intelligentsia,
2. Discourage people from conflicts.
3. Not to value hard to obtained goods,
4. Prevent people from being thieves.
5. Not being seen desirable,
6. People won't become perturbed.
7. With sagacious ruling,
8. Emptied one's heart,
9. Solidified one's belly,
10. Weaken one's volition,
11. Strengthen one's bone,
12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,
13. Thus presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.
14. Adapting the concept of Wu Wei,
15. Then, nothing that couldn't be handled.

Edited September 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yeah, we see this time and time again, be done with knowledge and desires and concern oneself with one's health.

[Stosh]

So am I but I learned to control it by becoming an ass.

Did you just be mean?

I was really asking .

 

Chapter 3 Rule with Wu Wei.

1. Dejectedly recruiting intelligentsia,

2. Discourage people from conflicts.

3. Not to value hard to obtained goods,

4. Prevent people from being thieves.

5. Not being seen desirable,

6. People won't become perturbed.

7. With sagacious ruling,

8. Emptied one's heart,

9. Solidified one's belly,

10. Weaken one's volition,

11. Strengthen one's bone,

12. Always keeping the people innocent without desire,

13. Thus presumptuous people cannot commit their acts.

14. Adapting the concept of Wu Wei,

15. Then, nothing that couldn't be handled.

That may be exactly what it says ,

and its fine if one rules themselves by it

but imposed by someone else ,

its asking for retaliation since if imposed by another ,

then I dont share those values and would think my ruler

was keeping me ignorant and poor.

[Marblehead]

Did you just be mean?

I was really asking .

 

I know you were seriously asking. I answered as honestly and as simply as I could.

 

No, I don't think I am a mean person. I just don't take peoples' word for things anymore. It is always "show me" time. And I don't accept things just because someone tells me "You can trust me on this one."

 

I offer respect where respect is due. But if there is none due there will be none forthcoming.

 

And I don't allow people to mess with me for very long. The first couple times I can willing let it pass as an error on their part. But if it happens more than twice I assume that they are actually trying to mess with me. I promosie, I wouldn't like that.

 

I demand respect if I am due respect. If I have been an ass then I really don't expect respect anymore. But I really don't "need" respect from others as long as they don't try to mess with me.

 

I am an individual and require being acknowledged as that. I'm not just a number in someone's book.

 

I try to be a nice guy. Sometimes I can't. That's life. Sometimes I have to be an ass.

[Rara]

Hmmm

So am I ,

do you know why it is -(opinion)- that is so for you?

Is it not living in the present ?

or is it living in the present ?

or what?

I could use some input on this,

something ( not vague ), might be very illuminating.

 

I have been practicing mindfulness but I keep having relapses - however, I find these relapses quite liberating from time to time. When I was being mindful as much as I could, everything slowed down for me and all was well and good....but I found myself achieving less in life. I'm naturally a very productive person, and it started to kill me that I wasn't doing as much. I can't tell if this is an addiction (problem) to constantly using my time and attention on things, or whether it's ADD etc. But I seem to just have this compulsive need to be active until I can't physically or mentally do anything else in the day.

 

I got tired of the mellow "me" and lost a lot of disciplines. Like this week for example - decided to take on too many things at once and then became more aggressive in order to tackle it all. But it feels like the "real me". As a result though, I ended up eating more because it felt like a reward. Huge dinner, lots of sweet food before bed etc. Still meditating and kung fu training too, but all that's doing is adding to my activity list, even though it is giving me a nice break from my work life.

 

I too would like to hear more about what you think!

 

So am I but I learned to control it by becoming an ass.

 

Hehe, I'm starting to think this will work for me in my own way. But, I've also started being an ass to myself. If I want to achieve something, then my head is in the clouds daydreaming and my mind wanders too much that I don't meet my potential, that is MY fault. Therefore, yelling at myself can be the only way to fix this and get me focused. Football coach style!

Edited September 11, 2013 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Hehe, I'm starting to think this will work for me in my own way. But, I've also started being an ass to myself. If I want to achieve something, then my head is in the clouds daydreaming and my mind wanders too much that I don't meet my potential, that is MY fault. Therefore, yelling at myself can be the only way to fix this and get me focused. Football coach style!

Yeah, I think I can honestly say that I am harder on myself than I need be but it keeps me going. If I think I have done something less than I am capable of doing I will almost always do it over again until I am satisfied that I have done my best.

 

But, one thing about being hard on ourself, we should never be as hard on others as we are on ourself. Many people simply cannot attain to our expectations. If they have done their best we need to keep our mouth shut.

[Stosh]

I have been practicing mindfulness but I keep having relapses - however, I find these relapses quite liberating from time to time. When I was being mindful as much as I could, everything slowed down for me and all was well and good....but I found myself achieving less in life.

 

I got tired of the mellow "me" and lost a lot of disciplines. Like this week for example - decided to take on too many things at once and then became more aggressive in order to tackle it all. But it feels like the "real me".

Well this is precisely what Im looking at , so were on the same page... that ones ideas may not match up with ones behavior.

 

Re: ,a pro "achieving lots in life" attitude , ,, well- is it driving you to dissatisfaction ? do you smell the roses ? do you dwell in the moment?

You could only say running around like that is "bad" if its your opinion -that it is.

But there are a few illusions in there

1-that its good or bad ,( there is no such thing outside your opinion ) to 2- achieve things ( thats two illusions right there youre gonna end like the rest of us -dust to dust)

that acting like that is the 3- "real you" ( there is no 'real you' over time except what you are doing with any moment and you can potentially change at any moment either, ,, 4- "relapse" is a comparison between what is gone what actually is and what you expect to be .. and only that which actually is ,has reality )

 

You can take a stab at pointing out my illusions in return..

Edited September 11, 2013 by Stosh

[Rara]

Yeah, I think I can honestly say that I am harder on myself than I need be but it keeps me going. If I think I have done something less than I am capable of doing I will almost always do it over again until I am satisfied that I have done my best.

 

But, one thing about being hard on ourself, we should never be as hard on others as we are on ourself. Many people simply cannot attain to our expectations. If they have done their best we need to keep our mouth shut.

 

We are very similar people The tough part is not being as hard on others...I mean, I possess this ability to manage (professionally) so therefore, I do! It's a big part of my business, and as tactful as I am, being "assertive" is often taken the wrong way by some. But I guess that's not really my problem. The issue with me being hard on myself means that others around me have to witness what they perceive as negative emotion, but for me, it's the way I get stuff done. On occasions, people will think I'm being funny with them, when really, I'm just in a more serious mood because I've taken a tongue lashing from myself. This of course is impossible to explain to others because they will just think I'm mad...because those are the ones that don't cultivate or understand my practice of self-mastery.

 

Well this is precisely what Im looking at , so were on the same page... that ones ideas may not match up with ones behavior.

 

Re: ,a pro "achieving lots in life" attitude , ,, well- is it driving you to dissatisfaction ? do you smell the roses ? do you dwell in the moment?

You could only say running around like that is "bad" if its your opinion -that it is.

But there are a few illusions in there

1-that its good or bad ,( there is no such thing outside your opinion ) to 2- achieve things ( thats two illusions right there youre gonna end like the rest of us -dust to dust)

that acting like that is the 3- "real you" ( there is no 'real you' over time except what you are doing with any moment and you can potentially change at any moment either, ,, 4- "relapse" is a comparison between what is gone what actually is and what you expect to be .. and only that which actually is ,has reality )

 

You can take a stab at pointing out my illusions in return..

 

Dissatisfaction - yes, to a degree. I have a list of achievements and as you will understand, all those are just words on paper. But I can utilise these to boast my way up the career ladder. This is non-Taoist practice, but then again, it is Taoist because when it all goes right, then I love every moment and it feels "right". So the hard work pays off, but I feel like crap using my past as a way in (I work in entertainment so I'm constantly having to ramble on about who I've worked with etc in order to get somewhere - think Joey Tribiani in Friends lol) I feel like a beggar and three years after university, that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.

 

Then again, this is just my perception and expectations...

 

...and like you say, good and bad is just perspective. But when it causes me stress (and headaches - I have one now!) I can't fool myself into thinking that's good.

 

Yep, I will just be dust like everyone else. But there is a legacy that remains behind, and for some reason, this is still important to me. This is where my conflict comes from ... I am so aware of the illusions of this life yet I can't seem to bring myself to accept it because if I do, I will lose my dreams and probably just end up getting a quiet and easy job and strum my guitar for fun.

 

And that is why gentlemen, my belly is only full sometimes! Haha. Funny, as much as I tried to keep this thread strictly about a text reference, it still spiraled into a personal chat. I guess that's the way it goes.

 

@MH @Stosh Feel free to try and advise as you see, I'm still confused - not with the text, but applying it. Or anyone for that matter

[Harmonious Emptiness]

An interesting note on the stomach in DDJ is Chapter 16 in both MaWangDui manuscripts, lines 07 to 09 say:

 

07

各復歸於亓根曰靜﹦

Each return back, alas! The foundation is peaceful harmony

是胃復=

This [is the] stomach returning

命﹦

To destiny/Ming

 

 

rather than "this is called returning to destiny" (Wang Bi/received text)

 

 

The whole chapter, imo, is very much about the rising and falling of energy/vapour, which naturally returns to the earth/stomach.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Nice association. Stomach <> Earth. I have never considered that before.

 

Do you see anything in the MaWangDui that would allow the association?: Mind (Energy) <> Heaven

[ChiDragon]

An interesting note on the stomach in DDJ is Chapter 16 in both MaWangDui manuscripts, lines 07 to 09 say:

 

07

各復歸於亓根曰靜﹦

Each return back, alas! The foundation is peaceful harmony

是胃復=

This [is the] stomach returning

命﹦

To destiny/Ming

 

 

rather than "this is called returning to destiny" (Wang Bi/received text)

 

 

The whole chapter, imo, is very much about the rising and falling of energy/vapour, which naturally returns to the earth/stomach.

 

Are you mistakenly thought that 復(return) is 腹(stomach) ........????

Edited September 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There are actually many interesting differences between the MaWangDui texts and the Wang Bi text. I think I'll do a topic on the chapter in my personal practice discussion.

 

But to answer your question, there is also a reference to the sky which does not appear in the Wang Bi text.

 

Note line 03 talks about "arising" then 05 says all living beings are like clouds (which is rising vapour); followed by "Returning to the foundation is called Peaceful Harmony"; (note chapter 39: "Earth attained The One and became Tranquil.... When Earth loses tranquility, it becomes....").

 

 

(Wang Bi's alternate characters in [brackets])

01

至虛極也

至Arrive at [致Deliver] the ultimate(Ji as in Taiji) of emptiness/hollowness and

02

守靜督也

Attentively conserve calm stillness

03

萬物旁作

Myriad creatures, side by side [並at the same time], mutually arising

04

吾以觀亓復也

They thereby observe the return 也as well

(yes, 也 is usually a particle, but if it didn't sometimes mean "also" in 400BC....)

05 天物:芸芸

天物雲﹦

Heavens creatures, like (all) so many clouds 雲(雲) [芸芸numerous, so numerous]

06

各復

Each one returns [back to their 根foundations]

07

各復歸於亓根曰靜﹦

[歸根曰靜]

各Each return back, alas! The foundation is peaceful harmony

[Returning to the foundation is called Peaceful Harmony]

08

是胃復﹦(same in MWD1)

是謂復命

This 胃stomach again

[This is called returning to 命destiny]

09 復命曰常,

命﹦(same in MWD1)

Returning to destiny is called 常 the intrinsic eternal

命Destiny

So, arising like clouds (in the sky) and returning to the belly... One might say this refers to energy rising to the upper dantien and then returning, which results in "natural illumination" as referred to in

line 10:

常也知常明也

[知常曰明]

(difficult to translate but best explanation is maybe)

常Things come about in this way, and it is known as the 明illumination 常that occurs 常naturally/frequently

(or deeper might mean)

The 常Intrinsic Eternal is known as Eternal Intrinsic Wisdom

 

Wang Bi has: "知Knowing the 常natural/common/frequent is called enlightenment"

[ChiDragon]

08

是胃復﹦(same in MWD1)

是謂復命

 

 

This 胃 in the classic text is equivalent to 謂.

 

胃: stomach

謂: said; said to be; to call

 

I had been saying many times, sometimes, the TTC classic was mistakenly written with phonetics. They must be corrected in order to have a logical interpretation.

 

This is more logical.

是謂復命: It was said to be returned to destiny.

 

This is not logical at all.

是胃復命; It was stomach to be returned to destiny.

 

 

Come on. Learn it right......!!! Don't learn it blindly.....!!!

 

Edited September 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

CD, why would they use a phonetic for 謂 wei ("is called/said to be") instead of just using 謂 wei, which was used all the time?