Lao Tzu and the "belly"

[ChiDragon]

CD, why would they use a phonetic for 謂 wei ("is called/said to be") instead of just using 謂 wei, which was used all the time?

 

I think at the ancient time, the characters were not uniform nor standardized but they were only in the preliminary stage. Some of the scholars might not know all the existing characters when the codex was written or some of the characters might not have had been invented.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

I think at the ancient time, the characters were not uniform nor standardized but they were only in the preliminary stage. Some of the scholars might not know all the existing characters when the codex was written or some of the characters might not have had been invented.

 

There may be some chance of that, but, I don't think wei would be one of those words. Surely someone would have been there to help, as the MWD texts were very complete, and the MWD texts were written almost 200 years after the Confucian Analects. The whole period of "100 schools of thought" was constantly defining things with "wei/this is called...".

 

If there was some sort of discontinuity in phrasing due to scholarship, I think, in this case is would be the sparsity of the characters used in saying

 

是胃復=

This [is the] stomach returning

命﹦

[To] destiny/Ming

 

Or better yet "This stomachs the return to destiny"

 

In either of these ways, it seems to suggest that the stomach is the place of knowing and understanding Ming/destiny.

 

Of course, later scholars not always being versed in Daoist knowledge, this would be changed to allow more people to have a sense of grasping it.

[dawei]

 

08

是胃復﹦(same in MWD1)

是謂復命

This 胃stomach again

[This is called returning to 命destiny]

Test it against other similar passages. You will see the pattern of use in the MWD:

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E6%98%AF%E8%83%83

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Test it against other similar passages. You will see the pattern of use in the MWD:

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E6%98%AF%E8%83%83

 

I've been wondering how you do those searches.. thanks for that...

 

In those examples, it seems that 是胃 "this stomachs" has a connotation like "this is the base of...." With close to 20 other "wèi" homonyms to choose from, why use "stomach?" Because the stomach, as the Chinese well knew, is a place of understanding.

 

Wei/stomach appears to be commonly used within other characters as a phonetic, but, as usual, Chinese texts of this time period are notoriously equivocal and suggestive with their word plays, so, personally, I wouldn't rule out the potential of a deeper implication here (DDJ16) referring directly to the stomach, especially with so many possible connections surrounding it.

 

 

Some interesting notes:

I see that 謂 wei "this is called" appears three times in the Guodian (oldest) while only once in MWD (next oldest) texts. Chapter 51 of MWD-A text (going by standard chapter chronology), uses "this is called.." while MWD-B text uses "stomach." I guess this would suggest that the MWD-A text was coming from a place closer to the cultural changes of the time.

[dawei]

Some interesting notes:

I see that 謂 wei "this is called" appears three times in the Guodian (oldest) while only once in MWD (next oldest) texts. Chapter 51 of MWD-A text (going by standard chapter chronology), uses "this is called.." while MWD-B text uses "stomach." I guess this would suggest that the MWD-A text was coming from a place closer to the cultural changes of the time.

 

Not sure where you get the counts from for 謂.

 

From Dao is Open website:

 

謂(谓) wèi (wei) speak about, described, called, is said to be

WB 1, 6, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 22, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 53, 55, 56, 59, 65, 67, 68, 69, 74, 78

HSG 1, 6, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 22, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 53, 55, 56, 59, 65, 67, 68, 69, 74, 78

MWDA 1, 6, 13, 14, 16, 17, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 55, 56, 59, 62, 65, 68, 69, 78

MWDB 1, 6, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 22, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 55, 56, 59, 62, 65, 67, 68, 69, 78

GD 13, 30, 55, 56, 59

 

I believe the Mawangdui B is dated later (more modern) but interesting find that it contains the older character.

 

I could speculate some ideas about your points but will look some more first.

[dawei]

A quick look at some of the oldest meanings for stomach:

1. It is the 'enclosure'; food, Qi, etc.

2. As spring starts the seasons, the stomach starts the day

3. The stomach is the source of sound (of talking)

 

I would venture that as the ancient characters carried many meanings and later clarified with standardization, 胃 became many sources for later meanings and 謂(谓) was the particular meaning of speaking has it's source [sound] in the stomach.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Not sure where you get the counts from for 謂.

 

From Dao is Open website:

Seems they just counted 胃 as 謂 when I look through those chapters. Chinese Text Project gave me 3 and 1.

 

I believe the Mawangdui B is dated later (more modern) but interesting find that it contains the older character.

Hmm, I wonder what their reasons were for dating it later.. that would be interesting too

[dawei]

Seems they just counted 胃 as 謂 when I look through those chapters. Chinese Text Project gave me 3 and 1.

 

Fair enough... I deal with data day-in and day-out... As the saying goes: "There are lies, damn lies and statistics!"

 

The numbers are less important if the research is good.

 

Hmm, I wonder what their reasons were for dating it later.. that would be interesting too

 

yes... I could ponder it but my inner voice says to let it go for now... interesting stuff.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

A quick look at some of the oldest meanings for stomach:

1. It is the 'enclosure'; food, Qi, etc.

2. As spring starts the seasons, the stomach starts the day

3. The stomach is the source of sound (of talking)

 

I would venture that as the ancient characters carried many meanings and later clarified with standardization, 胃 became many sources for later meanings and 謂(谓) was the particular meaning of speaking has it's source [sound] in the stomach.

 

just looked this up here and

 

2. is wrong actually... The stomach is Earth element which corresponds to the afternoon and late summer. Speech is associated with metal.

 

Earth/stomach is associated with Thought, which corresponds to my earlier presumption:

 

"With close to 20 other "wèi" homonyms to choose from, why use "stomach?" Because the stomach, as the Chinese well knew, is a place of understanding" (I was going to say as meditators well know, but figured the Cha'an influence was enough to say Chinese culture in general. Pretty sure the WuXing chart was probably in my subconscious though..).

Edited September 14, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

just looked this up here and

 

2. is wrong actually... The stomach is Earth element which corresponds to the afternoon and late summer. Speech is associated with metal.

 

Earth/stomach is associated with Thought, which corresponds to my earlier presumption:

 

"With close to 20 other "wèi" homonyms to choose from, why use "stomach?" Because the stomach, as the Chinese well knew, is a place of understanding" (I was going to say as meditators well know, but figured the Cha'an influence was enough to say Chinese culture in general. Pretty sure the WuXing chart was probably in my subconscious though..).

 

Was quoting the Classic of Rites:

《禮·月令》季春之月，日在胃。

 

季春 = final month of spring (i.e. third month of lunar calendar)

 

In the body meridian clock, stomach 胃 is 7am...

 

I assume this is close to sunrise idea.

 

I don't disagree with the stomach as the seat of understanding. It is the seat of the lower dan tian energy center. This is where we truly 'think' in the sense of inner seeing.

 

Realize that energy cycles and Wu Xing (5 Element Theory) do not actually align in every case.

 

Heat is kidney's in one; but heart in another...

Edited September 14, 2013 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

"yes... I could ponder it but my inner voice says to let it go for now... interesting stuff."

 

Keeping in mind, that the Guodian, the older text, was using 謂wei"this is called." This suggests that maybe the Dao De Jing was more prevalent across regions and dialects than the standardization of (these) characters.

 

Was quoting the Classic of Rites:

《禮·月令》季春之月，日在胃。

 

季春 = final month of spring (i.e. third month of lunar calendarI

Brings an interesting quandry: would the Dao De Jing be more influenced by the Classic of Rites or the Nei Jia (and had the Nei Jia already been written, whether or not the knowledge was in practice already)?

 

In the body meridian clock, stomach 胃 is 7am...

 

I assume this is close to sunrise idea.

I remember Joel Seigneur saying that 7am is the best time to eat.. I forget why, but it would have been explained according to 5 element theory. Maybe the meridian is connected to liver and gall bladder/Wood? I forgot that wood element starts at 3am.

 

I don't disagree with the stomach as the seat of understanding. It is the seat of the lower dan tian energy center. This is where we truly 'think' in the sense of inner seeing.

 

Realize that energy cycles and Wu Xing (5 Element Theory) do not actually align in every case.

 

Heat is kidney's in one; but heart in another...

Going back to Joel Seigneur again, apparently the sexual organs (now "kidneys/water") were considered the source of heat for the body and also fire element, but this was changed in more recent decades due to prudism.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

Keeping in mind, that the Guodian, the older text, was using 謂wei"this is called." This suggests that maybe the Dao De Jing was more prevalent across regions and dialects than the standardization of (these) characters.

 

That's not correct so not sure where you seeing this. The Guodian is using the oldest character 胃. 謂 did not exist until they clarified the varying meanings of a single character (ie: 胃) by adding radicals to the left. Here is what the Guodian was using: One can see this on the bamboo slips.

 

 

 

You can see the bamboo slips here:

http://www.daoisopen.com/GuodianLaozi.html

 

 

Brings an interesting quandry: would the Dao De Jing be more influenced by the Classic of Rites or the Nei Jia (and had the Nei Jia already been written, whether or not the knowledge was in practice already)?

 

The book of rites was later than the DDJ but is rather factual in describing "social forms, administration, and ceremonial rites "

 

Not sure what Nei Jia is.

 

I remember Joel Seigneur saying that 7am is the best time to eat.. I forget why, but it would have been explained according to 5 element theory. Maybe the meridian is connected to liver and gall bladder/Wood? I forgot that wood element starts at 3am.

 

Edited September 14, 2013 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You can see the bamboo slips here:

http://www.daoisopen.com/GuodianLaozi.html

lol... okay, so the Chinese Text Project was less than specific there. Note for future reference -- find the character via the search, but check them out for myself..

 

The book of rites was later than the DDJ but is rather factual in describing "social forms, administration, and ceremonial rites "

 

Not sure what Nei Jia is.

 

Sorry, meant Nei Jing / Treatise of Huang Di.

 

Interesting chart. Is there a link that explains it further?

 

 

edit:

I hope we're not getting too far away from "keeping one foot on the topic." Just trying to see where all the uses of "belly" were coming from and going. A great topic really...

Edited September 14, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

lol... okay, so the Chinese Text Project was less than specific there. Note for future reference -- find the character via the search, but check them out for myself..

 

That's true. Here is a good source to see each text version: http://www.tao-te-king.org/trilingual.htm

 

Pick a chapter, say Ch. 13. You will see the Wang Bi with chinese, pinyin, and english.

 

Scroll down and you'll see the MWD-A, MWD-B, and Guodian (if applicable). Although it is not bamboo or silk, they tend to show the original character... but cross check with the bamboo slip link.

 

 

Sorry, meant Nei Jing / Treatise of Huang Di.

 

Ok. This is a medical book heavily explaining Yin/Yang theory; probably dates around 200bc-300bc but one of the earliest references to it is around 100ad.

 

Interesting chart. Is there a link that explains it further?

http://www.natural-health-zone.com/meridian-clock.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/timing-is-everything-a-review-of-acupuncture-and-the-clock-meridians

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=30030

 

Keyword: Meridian Clock

 

If really interested in this, you should study the acupuncture lines and see that they connect and flow in the order explained. One practice is to move the Qi along the macrocosm orbit which is in the order as well. In clinical, we would finish a treatment by moving the receivers energy in this orbit and tie together their energy centers.

 

edit:

I hope we're not getting too far away from "keeping one foot on the topic." Just trying to see where all the uses of "belly" were coming from and going. A great topic really...

 

Agreed... I would be useful to maybe break this out to its own topic.

[Marblehead]

Agreed... I would be useful to maybe break this out to its own topic.

Whatever. I haven't seen any indication that anyone wanted to get back to the opening post topic.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

That's true. Here is a good source to see each text version: http://www.tao-te-king.org/trilingual.htm

 

Pick a chapter, say Ch. 13. You will see the Wang Bi with chinese, pinyin, and english.

 

Scroll down and you'll see the MWD-A, MWD-B, and Guodian (if applicable). Although it is not bamboo or silk, they tend to show the original character... but cross check with the bamboo slip link.

They also show the difference between MWD-A and B for chapter 51. I can't seem to find pictures of MWD scrolls that are easy to navigate.

 

Ok. This is a medical book heavily explaining Yin/Yang theory; probably dates around 200bc-300bc but one of the earliest references to it is around 100ad.

 

http://www.natural-health-zone.com/meridian-clock.htm

 

So the meridian times don't follow the wuxing "progressive" progression like the organs. Interesting that the Earth meridians are active with the Fire organs at 7am, followed by Fire meridians with Earth organs around noon. Then it's water meridians over Earth and then metal organs, and it gets more varied after that. Something that would probably have deeper implications someplace maybe.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/timing-is-everything-a-review-of-acupuncture-and-the-clock-meridians

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=30030

 

Keyword: Meridian Clock

 

If really interested in this, you should study the acupuncture lines and see that they connect and flow in the order explained. One practice is to move the Qi along the macrocosm orbit which is in the order as well. In clinical, we would finish a treatment by moving the receivers energy in this orbit and tie together their energy centers.

 

Someday, I hope to get more familiar with the meridians and applications.

 

How does the macrocosmic orbit correspond to this order I'm wondering?

[dawei]

They also show the difference between MWD-A and B for chapter 51. I can't seem to find pictures of MWD scrolls that are easy to navigate.

 

http://www.alice-dsl.net/wulfdieterich/mawangdui/mawangdui.htm

 

So the meridian times don't follow the wuxing "progressive" progression like the organs. Interesting that the Earth meridians are active with the Fire organs at 7am, followed by Fire meridians with Earth organs around noon. Then it's water meridians over Earth and then metal organs, and it gets more varied after that. Something that would probably have deeper implications someplace maybe.

 

That is true but because they are two distinct representations; the five elements is more about the influence and balance of the associated organs and the meridian clock is more the continuous path of the Qi flow.

 

How does the macrocosmic orbit correspond to this order I'm wondering?

 

That orbit follows the meridian clock [flow].

[Harmonious Emptiness]

http://www.alice-dsl.net/wulfdieterich/mawangdui/mawangdui.htm

Thanks. I can't find Chapter 51 there however..

 

That is true but because they are two distinct representations; the five elements is more about the influence and balance of the associated organs and the meridian clock is more the continuous path of the Qi flow.

That orbit follows the meridian clock [flow].

 

This would make an interesting topic in Taoist Discussion.

 

 

As for the OP here, I think "filling the belly" is, overall, significant of bringing people to grounded peaceful awareness, which is the "knowing" of the stomach. This "knowing" of the stomach, I believe, is especially in the lower dantien. When the lower dantien is vibrant, the kidneys are full of qi. When the kidneys are full of qi, the will and courage are also vibrant.

 

This could lead to a discussion of Ming and Xing or "Destiny and Life" which are cultivated in Daoism, sometimes referred to as Water and Fire, and sometimes allocated to the kidneys and heart (respectively).

 

[There is another discussion about Ming and Xing in the Dao De Jing here]

 

I feel that this "knowing" of the belly is to "know for one's self" rather than just accepting, in the intellectual mind, what one learns or is told. Thus this also is part of knowing one's "real self" in a sense, since how can you know "yourself" if you can't know "for yourself." These are things that the Sage wants for all people, in order to keep them, and thus society, autonomously healthy and harmonious.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

As for the OP here, I think "filling the belly" is, overall, significant of bringing people to grounded peaceful awareness, which is the "knowing" of the stomach. This "knowing" of the stomach, I believe, is especially in the lower dantien. When the lower dantien is vibrant, the kidneys are full of qi. When the kidneys are full of qi, the will and courage are also vibrant.

 

. . .

 

I feel that this "knowing" of the belly is to "know for one's self" rather than just accepting, in the intellectual mind, what one learns or is told. Thus this also is part of knowing one's "real self" in a sense, since how can you know "yourself" if you can't know "for yourself." These are things that the Sage wants for all people, in order to keep them, and thus society, autonomously healthy and harmonious.

 

The belly is the seat of life: Qi, food, inner senses. This lower energy center is our true center (中). I think when LZ says to hold the center it is not just the inner aspect but this seat of life.

[Rara]

I feel that this "knowing" of the belly is to "know for one's self" rather than just accepting, in the intellectual mind, what one learns or is told. Thus this also is part of knowing one's "real self" in a sense, since how can you know "yourself" if you can't know "for yourself." These are things that the Sage wants for all people, in order to keep them, and thus society, autonomously healthy and harmonious.

 

Yeah, I've started to acknowledge this actually in recent practice. My meditations this week have been very useful in me, rather than saying "I have this problem, how can I make it go away", actually looking inward and realising "Wow, this is me" and all of a sudden it becomes very clear what needs to be done.

 

Ugh, words suck, I can't think of a good way to describe it...I think you'd actually have to be me to understand fully hehe. So in other words, to your comment, I'm going to say "Yes"

 

The belly is the seat of life: Qi, food, inner senses. This lower energy center is our true center (中). I think when LZ says to hold the center it is not just the inner aspect but this seat of life.

 

And yes, realising that it's holistic. Food, air, energy etc...ensuring that it's all stocked up. Empty the mind though because if we don't, we get caught up in chasing thoughts and coinciding with this, we fair to fill our bellies (ie meditate)

 

Well that's my take so far...

[Wu Ming Jen]

Empty the mind and fill the belly/Tai Chi Chuan> peaceful calm mind,empty from preconceived thoughts, in the moment, completely present, move from the belly (center)full of chi like an inflated tire able to withstand and issue great force.

 

To lead a country > empty the minds of people make their concerns be few. Act on behalf of the people, keep the people's bellies full.

 

The principle of emptying the mind and filling the belly works.

[Marblehead]

The principle of emptying the mind and filling the belly works.

I think that if we looked at this very closely we might find that it works only at the surface level. (I haven't fixed my mind as to whether this is the "Way of Tao" or the "way of man".)

[Stosh]

Funny how many folks of certain persuasions could be said to prescribe the exact opposite ,

to 'fill the mind' and 'empty the belly'.

[Marblehead]

I'm not going there but I could.

[Stosh]

I'm not going there but I could.

Go there then

because enough folks suggest living in their head rather than feasting and enjoying life where they can.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Stosh