Back to Basics (I mean REALLY basic)

[Urpflanze]

Let's get BASIC. God knows I need it!

 

 

 

1. It is in MY best interests for ME to be kind to OTHERS.

 

 

 

2. It is bad for ME for ME to mistreat OTHERS.

 

 

 

How simple is the obvious!

 

I beg to differ. The first sore is that your criteria for being good or bad is governed by your own personal interests - MY and ME. The second sore is that life is not that simple to live by the two naive handles. You are closing your eyes to the multidimensional, multilevel reality by doing that. The third sore is that you are a human and there is a reason why it is important... to figure out your own voice.

[Apech]

That's very interesting.

 

How do we find perfect love so as to operate from that place of highest intent. The person robbing the store is in a desperate place.. most likely the shopkeeper is not..

 

A person robbing a store would either be in a state of confused conflicting emotions or be in a state where they no longer understood that stealing is wrong. In either case if that were you how would you like to be treated? For instance if someone stopped you they would be helping you, if they needed to use force the same applies.

[三江源]

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Edited July 15, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

So would the key to this be the how of doing it... stopping someone out of love and intent to care and rectify the desperation.

 

 

I don't see it as how more that the motivation is for the good of everyone ... the thief, the shopkeeper, other shoppers, yourself and the act reflects this ...

[KenBrace]

That's very interesting.

 

How do we find perfect love so as to operate from that place of highest intent. The person robbing the store is in a desperate place.. most likely the shopkeeper is not..

 

Not necessarily. The type of people that rob stores are generally either greedy or need money for drugs.

[三江源]

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Edited July 15, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

the person in most distress is the thief?

 

because he is desperate?

 

If you are greedy, and need money for drugs.. this means you are in dire straits, spiritually..

 

not necessarily

[三江源]

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Edited July 15, 2014 by cat

[KenBrace]

For instance if someone stopped you they would be helping you, if they needed to use force the same applies.

But what if he doesn't want your help? "He needs it whether he knows it or not."But unless God backs it up then who is to decide who is right?

 

Tell me how it would be possible to be greedy and in need of money for drugs, and not be in dire straits, spiritually?

I said greedy OR in need of drug money. Some people are completely in their right mind and are not desperate, but are simply selfish and would rather steal money than work for it.

[Apech]

Tell me how it would be possible to be greedy and in need of money for drugs, and not be in dire straits, spiritually?

 

 

I didn't say they were not in dire straits I said they were not necessarily in the most dire straits ... maybe the shopkeeper is going through hell trying to keep things together for his family .. who knows? I'm not one for these moral questions ... you just do the best you can and move on.

 

But what if he doesn't want your help? "He needs it whether he knows it or not." But unless God backs it up then who is to decide who is right?

 

I said greedy OR in need of drug money. Some people are completely in their right mind and are not desperate, but are simply selfish and would rather steal money than work for it.

 

Nothing to do with what he wants. God? How do you know what God thinks?

[KenBrace]

That's very interesting.

 

How do we find perfect love so as to operate from that place of highest intent. The person robbing the store is in a desperate place.. most likely the shopkeeper is not..

 

You would have no way of knowing this though. The thief could be in desperate need of money and the shopkeeper could be rich. On the other hand the shopkeeper could be just making enough to support his business and family, while the thief had plenty of money and just wanted more.

[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[KenBrace]

 

Nothing to do with what he wants. God? How do you know what God thinks?

 

You pray and ask him to help you with the right decision when you're not sure what you should do. That's my whole point. You can't always rely on your own judgement.

[Apech]

Yes the shopkeeper could be in dire straits also. So there is no competetition going on. Dire straits could be the situation all round.. some more pressing, others more chronic...

 

which brings us back to rogers original premise, which is so simple.. it is bad for ME to treat people badly... whoever they are, whatever the circumstances may or may not be...

 

KenBrace .. you are on the same page as Apech..

 

to explain,my assumption was based on thinking of Jesus and his love of the underdog... I am thinking WWJD, at the moment, in relation to rogers premise... and Jesus favoured the outsiders, always.. AND you and Apech are right.

 

 

You've lost me completely

 

Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple ... he healed people and told them to give up sinning (which would include shoplifting presumably) ...

 

You pray and ask him to help you with the right decision when you're not sure what you should do. That's my whole point. You can't always rely on your own judgement.

 

Well that's kind of the same as doing wu wei in the moment. the point is you act for the best - its not an intellectual thing but overall you try to do the least harm. But stopping someone robbing a shop is not harming them its helping them either preventing sin (theistic) or avoiding negative karma (buddhist).

 

to explain,my assumption was based on thinking of Jesus and his love of the underdog... I am thinking WWJD, at the moment, in relation to rogers premise... and Jesus favoured the outsiders, always.. AND you and Apech are right.

 

You need to think about that one a bit more I think.

[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

Could you explain how this is a mistake? Or is that a bit of an arduous ask?

 

btw with regard to the shoplifters.. as I see it Jesus would have been concerned that anyone was being so under nourished, that they would have to resort to theft.. no?

 

Its a very arduous task indeed. Did I say it was a mistake? I was implying that there is something deeper going on in Jesus than just favouring outsiders. In fact I would argue that he wasn't favouring anyone - he simply wasn't rejecting anyone ... so to rest of society who did reject tax collectors and prostitutes and so on it looked like he favoured them. After all I don't suppose you think he rejected (or failed to favour) shopkeepers do you?

[三江源]

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Edited July 8, 2014 by cat

[Apech]

No I dont think there was any stark polarity being acted out, but rather a mission to include those that were excluded, to reach out to those that were rejected..

 

my thought informed by things like this:

 

Luke 4:18

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,

 

 

Well! If your going to quote the Bible at me ... I think that's cheating.

 

Sure but not by excluding others ... so he wouldn't side with the robber against the shopkeeper would he?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Apech

[Stosh]

Let's get BASIC. God knows I need it!

 

 

 

1. It is in MY best interests for ME to be kind to OTHERS.

 

 

 

2. It is bad for ME for ME to mistreat OTHERS.

 

 

 

How simple is the obvious!

Not obvious , not basic , not factually true , and appears to be founded on an Idea which is not clearly Taoist but perhaps of the Abrahamic tradition IMO

The only simple thing about it is the abbreviated parental dictate fo follow the idea as a rule.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Stosh

[roger]

Thanks Cat.

 

 

Love you too.

[Marblehead]

You did good Roger. One good Karma point for you.

[silent thunder]

Seems like cats are almost always in wu wei, if not overly domesticated.

 

No doubt.

[PLB]

The spirit of punishment is a difficult thing to wrestle with.

 

Whenever it is depicted as a simple choice of ends or agency, the culpability of the moment, with all the elements of what is known and forgotten, is not accurately reflected.

 

I am with Kafka and DeRochefoucauld when they say that righteousness is not about being certain of being righteous.

 

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[xor]

Not necessarily. The type of people that rob stores are generally either greedy or need money for drugs.

 

There are some exceptions...

 

[Marblehead]

There are some exceptions...

Okay, that's still wrong. However, if he was telling the truth and if I was ever in his condition I wouldn't doubt that I would do something like that.