I Ching - Hexigram 16 - Daughter Under Mountain?

[JustARandomPanda]

I've been busy these past few months getting much deeper into meditation and trying to get through assorted blockages. Recently I'd swear that for brief moments my 'center of being' has moved from my head to the center of my chest. I guess that is the heart center (heart mind)?

 

 

Tonight was a good meditation session. I'd been ruminating briefly about the text

. But something came up unbidden tonight that surprised me and I do not know what to make of it.

 

I'd swear I got the impression a Taoist Being (Immortal?) visited me only a few moments ago (I could sense him plain as day!) and granted me these lines:

 

 

Hexigram 16

 

 

Daughter

Under Mountain

 

 

In Winter

Old Yang becomes Yin

 

 

Hexigram 16

 

 

And then he left!!

 

 

And I am absolutely befuddled. I have never studied the I Ching ever so I do not really understand what these lines are telling me. I do have a copy of the I Ching (Master Alfred Huang) so about the only thing I could figure out to do was simply look up Hexigram 16.

 

Master Huang translates 16 as Delight

 

Then he goes on to discuss what this hexigram means (I presume) depending on which line it's placed in?

 

There were many different interpretations for just this one hexigram. Some were of seemingly good omen (lots of times they seemed variations of 'persevere and you'll be rewarded' type) but others seemed to indicate pride and conceit which leads to woe. Or I guess as a westerner might say

 

"pride goeth before the fall"

 

 

So I do not know if these lines are the Tao telling me to persevere and I'll make progress in meditating or if I'm scheduled for some sort of woe this coming winter.

 

 

Does anyone have any idea what this might mean?

Edited September 7, 2013 by JustARandomPanda

[Taomeow]

How cool is that!

 

 

This is a good hexagram unless you get an inauspicious changing line, which I don't think you did. There's only one old yang in hexagram 16 (in the upper trigram), and the words "in winter old yang becomes yin" indicate that this line was pointed out to you as the changing line. It is a good one by itself, and the hexagram derived from this change, number 2, is all good, and indeed all yin and associated with winter. The overall reading suggests getting prepared for a project (you know better than I which one, or else will know soon enough). The best time to initiate it, with due preparations, is between winter and spring.

 

As for

"daughter

under

mountain" --

 

this is really interesting, because the sage couldn't have referred to the Zhouyi arrangement of the I Ching, maybe he meant the Earlier Heaven arrangement, I'll have to take a look. In the Later Heaven arrangement, this hexagram may be read as "daughter under mountain" only if flipped over (or read top to bottom instead of bottom to top)! This refers both to the actual trigrams and the nuclear trigrams. If you flip it, nuclear ones will then be fire (Li) over earth (a small earth trigram, Ken -- mountain), which is indeed a mother-daughter relationship (fire produces earth). And similarly, if you read the actual trigrams upside down, they give you a female (though Kun usually means mother rather than daugter, but your sage didn't specify "youngest daughter," "middle daughter" or "eldest daughter," either one of which would point out a particular different trigram, so perhaps he meant "female" in general) under mountain. I couldn't figure out a way to read Hexagram 16 as "daughter under mountain" straight up in the modern arrangement (believe me, I tried ). Of course to an immortal a few thousand years of a different arrangement may seem as a modern fad... too new, something to be skeptical about...

[Apech]

Wilhelm translates hexagram 16 as Enthusiam - the image is of thunder (arousing energy) over earth (yin receptivity) … what this refers to is the process of gathering inner resources so that you can respond positively to new things, situations in life or also emergents in your practice. TM has already pointed out that the only line that can be old yang is line four. This says you 'gather friends around you as a hair clasp gathers hair' - friends means helpful entities and the gathering together process is this gathering of inner resources - which is a description of what you are doing in your meditation.

 

The old yang line turns to yin which gives a new hexagram 2 which is the Earth (the receptive) - this means you are working on becoming totally receptive. This is said to be in winter which is the time of maximum dark and yin so that affirms the message.

 

If you unpack the inner trigrams which comprise lines 2-5 you get Water over the Mountain Hex 39 which is about overcoming obstacles - so the inner process you are going through involves keeping still (the mountain) while being in the position of being between a steep mountain and dangerous waters. Sounds bad but actually its just saying you are doing the right thing in practicing meditation (keeping still).

 

Daughter under the mountain - there are three possible trigrams which could refer to daughters …. so as the message was unspecific I think the daughter is you … under the mountain again means you are keeping still.

 

Overall this is an encouraging message to keep up what you are doing - work towards becoming as open and receptive as you can be - gather helpers to you - obstacles will be overcome like this i.e. by keeping still and not actively trying to attack them.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

According to Zhongxian Wu's book "Shamanic Yijing," Dui/Lake signifies young girl (among other things) and the other trigrams have different personalities associated rather than young girl. I'm pretty sure Daughter would refer to Dui/Lake.

 

It's interesting to note that Lake and Mountain face each other in the pre-heaven bagua map.

 

According to the Fu Hsi sequence ("based on the pre-heaven bagua map") Mountain over Lake is hexagram 15 which changes to hexagram 16.

 

So I think hexagram 16 of the Fu Xi sequence is being referred to here: Heaven over Lake

 

This is hexagram #10 by the King Wen sequence, "Treading."

 

 

(gotta go for now...)

Edited September 7, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Apech]

According to Zhongxian Wu's book "Shamanic Yijing," Dui/Lake signifies young girl (among other things) and the other trigrams have different personalities associated rather than young girl. I'm pretty sure Daughter would refer to Dui/Lake.

 

It's interesting to note that Lake and Mountain face each other in the pre-heaven bagua map.

 

According to the Fu Hsi sequence ("based on the pre-heaven bagua map") Mountain over Lake is hexagram 15 which changes to hexagram 16.

 

So I think hexagram 16 of the Fu Xi sequence is being referred to here: Heaven over Lake

 

This is hexagram #10 by the King Wen sequence, "Treading."

 

 

(gotta go for now...)

 

 

Yes I thought about daughter as Dui ... but then wood/wind and fire are also daughters.

 

If its daughter (dui) under mountain then that would be hex 41 'Decrease'.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes I thought about daughter as Dui ... but then wood/wind and fire are also daughters.

 

If its daughter (dui) under mountain then that would be hex 41 'Decrease'.

 

Mountain over Lake (Fu Xi hex. 15) becomes "hexagram 16" by changing the top yin to yang.

 

So, "hexagram 16" (Fu Xi), Heaven over Lake. "Old yang becomes Yin, Daughter under Mountain" The top yang changes to yin and we get "Mountain over Lake."

Edited September 7, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Apech]

Mountain over Lake (Fu Xi hex. 15) becomes "hexagram 16" by changing the top yin to yang.

 

So, "hexagram 16" (Fu Xi), Heaven over Lake. "Old yang becomes Yin, Daughter under Mountain" The top yang changes to yin and we get "Mountain over Lake."

 

 

OK. If that's right forget what I said I was using King Wen numbering.

 

XXXXXXX

XXX XXX

XXX XXX

XXX XXX

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX is mountain over lake/daughter (yes?)

 

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX

XXX XXX

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX is heaven over lake ... > can't get from one to other by changing one yang to yin.

 

am I missing something or misunderstanding????

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Oh right! whoops. I confused myself because the Fu Xi hex. 15 is actually the reverse, Lake over Mountain. Unless maybe

 

"Daughter

Under Mountain"

 

meant "Daugher (this is above), Under (is) Mountain." I'm wondering if the tone in the communication was like this and led JustaRandomPanda to present it as s/he did.

 

Otherwise, I can't see any Old Yang that would change to yin and/or any associations relating to hexagram 16 (from any sequence)

 

I'm wondering if the "grammar" of the communication was

 

"Hexigram 16

 

[becomes]

 

Daughter [this is the most powerful/on top]

Under [is] Mountain

 

[because]

 

In Winter [Heaven (from #16) is metal/autumn, and becomes Winter/water element/Lake, when]

Old Yang becomes Yin

 

 

Hexigram 16 [is the originating hexagram]"

 

 

That would confirm my earlier theories too.

 

To interpret trigram and hexagram indications like this, according to Wu's "Shamanic Yijing," we need to be very open to the "non-linear" subtleties until they all come together. From my perspective, these seems to be the "non-linear" indications that have lined up, with almost no other congruent possibilities.

 

 

JustaRandomPanda, from a personal observation, I'd say you are making progress in developing the virtue of the middle dantien. This can help to allow you and virtuous spirits to understand each other, like two notes of the same frequency knowing when they are in tune. It's great that you're working with and studying Liao Fan's 4 Lessons to help guide you as well in this direction !

[deci belle]

Hexigram 16

 

 

Daughter

Under Mountain

 

 

In Winter

Old Yang becomes Yin

 

 

Hexigram 16

 

I would work with this directly without inferring other interpretations. This transmission is not a hint.

[Apech]

I would work with this directly without inferring other interpretations. This transmission is not a hint.

 

 

What does it mean then?

[deci belle]

This is something to bore into wordlessness itself. This one should plant just this in the homeland of nothing-whatsoever.

 

This one (Panda) must utterly reject the notion of self and other in terms of transmission.

 

I would not have told a soul, but it does not matter really, as what matters is not meaning, but getting beyond the habitual reflex to grasp at meaning. This is eliminating intellectualism in the time of winter and maintaining innocent silence.

 

The reception is potential which is scattered by intellectualism. I would not necessarily read anything into the experience, because to do so would be to bring it down to the level of reasoning. If the experience is wasted on reasoning, this one may not be trusted to receive in the future.

 

The meeting and the relic are not beyond unity itself in terms of this one; ultimately one's teacher is not a separate entity.

 

The ruler gathers the yin into one bunch is using firmness to transmute the yin. Gathering the medicines, they submit joyfully.

 

I could say when old yang becomes yin is the time of winter.

 

This becomes = transformation: spiritual alchemy is the highest transformation accomplished by people~ so let's not be petty.

 

Yang culminating is the time of yin convergence. When a new yin cycle comes to the fore is the time for withdrawl of the fire and receding with the medicines into stillness and dark unity (winter) waiting for the unrefined potential to transmute naturally.

 

All kinds of things could be read into the message. The message is very simple. In winter old yang becomes yin. Why read anything into it? I have not said anything different.

 

Perhaps this one can accomplish the the simplicity of the message. I would be inspired to do so under the conditions.❤

[deci belle]

I would expect no less from Vous.

[dawei]

Wilhelm translates hexagram 16 as Enthusiam - the image is of thunder (arousing energy) over earth (yin receptivity) … what this refers to is the process of gathering inner resources so that you can respond positively to new things, situations in life or also emergents in your practice.

 

Whether as the OP states it or Wilhelm, it speaks of procreation to me.

 

Thunder (arousing energy) pentrates the earth (receptivity) which causes the earth to shake (be impregnated with energy).

 

While the energy from lightning is now known to be some sort of result of electrical charges and we usually think of it as a charge differential in the sky/clouds...

 

But what I see in the OP version is almost suggestive that the mountain-mother contains the [potential-future] daughter-seed and simply awaits its seasonal transformation. In nature, we see this biological clock issue as well.

[Taomeow]

It has steadily been my experience with the I Ching that there's usually a whole fractal of meanings to a particular answer she gives, applicable to a whole fractal of situations. If you use the oracle for divination (i.e. the way it was used traditionally for thousands of years), you may get answers up and down the octave from your question, pertaining to bigger and smaller issues than the one you asked about but resonating harmoniously with the overall theme.

 

Example:

"I divine traveling to New York in October" may give me something like "southwest is lucky, northeast is blocked" -- which will cause me to try to figure out if northeast is blocked in October specifically, and the answer may be "I told you once, I won't tell you twice, stop bothering me." And that same day I will get stuck in bad traffic going to Encinitas, which is a ten-minute drive northeast away from me, and later that day get an invitation to a sushi outing from a friend in La Jolla, southwest. So this will show me that the fractal of "northeast is blocked" extends to its smaller here-now resonances as well, not just New York in October, and I will wait to ask the question again later, when the stars have moved and the qi of the time has changed.

 

So, Panda didn't ask the question but she got the answer without asking, and it's now about figuring out which question or questions this was the answer to (if the immortal was a traditionalist rather than a new ager, he will honor the traditional way to use the I Ching I am sure). In my experience, it may be, like I said, not an answer to one particular question but a whole octave or even a whole symphony of meanings pertaining to all the resonating situations of similar nature and quality of qi. So, it could be very useful to grasp the climate and flavor, feeling and meaning, nature and quality of this message, and then keep checking situations that arise in real life and/or in the mind against its tuning fork, noticing the resonances.

[ChiDragon]

OK. If that's right forget what I said I was using King Wen numbering.

 

XXXXXXX

XXX XXX

XXX XXX

XXX XXX

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX is mountain over lake/daughter (yes?)

 

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX

XXX XXX

XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX is heaven over lake ... > can't get from one to other by changing one yang to yin.

 

am I missing something or misunderstanding????

 

FYI When one interprets the hexagrams, the proper way is use the names of the trigrams. In this case, "lake/marsh" should used for the bottom trigram instead of "daughter".

[Apech]

 

FYI When one interprets the hexagrams, the proper way is use the names of the trigrams. In this case, "lake/marsh" should used for the bottom trigram instead of "daughter".

 

 

Read the whole conversation and you will understand why I did that.

[ChiDragon]

Read the whole conversation and you will understand why I did that.

 

Yes, I can understand. However, but sorry, it will not hold water for all the interpretations. No exceptions....!!!

Edited September 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

 

Yes, I can understand. However, but sorry, it will not hold water for all the interpretations. No exceptions....!!!

 

Eh? Could you explain this?

[ChiDragon]

Daughter under the mountain - there are three possible trigrams which could refer to daughters …. so as the message was unspecific I think the daughter is you … under the mountain again means you are keeping still.

 

The term "daughter" was only used for the explanation in studying the trigrams. Each trigram is designated with a given name.

 

1. The name of this Trigram is known as "Marsh"; and described as the "youngest daughter"

--- ---

--------

--------

The the broken line represents "Water" is flowing on top of high lands.

 

 

2. This is known as "Fire" (the second daughter)

---------

--- ---

---------

The broken line in the middle represents "Fire" burning in a cooking brick stove.

 

 

3. This is known as "Wind" (oldest daughter)

---------

---------

--- ---

The broken line at the bottom represents "Wind" blowing beneath the sky.

 

 

Let's analyze the hexagram with the "Mountain" trigram on the top of the "Marsh/lake" trigram:

A mountain is on marsh land which means the soil is very loose and weak to hold a big mountain. Hence, the mountain tends to fall.

 

If we say a mountain is on top of a daughter, then the interpretation would be a female is buried underground.

 

 

Edited to add:

Thank Tao that we are still having the edit function at all times......

Edited September 8, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

 

The term "daughter" was only used for the explanation in studying the trigrams. Each trigram is designated with a given name.

 

1. The name of this Trigram is known as "Marsh"; and described as the "oldest daughter"

--- ---

--------

--------

The the broken line represents "Water" is flowing on top of high lands.

 

 

2. This is known as "Fire" (the second daughter)

---------

--- ---

---------

The broken line in the middle represents "Fire" burning in a cooking brick stove.

 

 

3. This is known as "Wind" (youngest daughter)

---------

---------

--- ---

The broken line at the bottom represents "Wind" blowing beneath the sky.

 

 

Let's analyze the hexagram with the "Mountain" trigram on the top of the "Marsh/lake" trigram:

A mountain is on marsh land which means the soil is very loose and weak to hold a big mountain. Hence, the mountain tends to fall.

 

If we say a mountain is on top of a daughter, then the interpretation would be a female is buried underground.

 

1. is youngest daughter not oldest.

 

I agree with your last bit.

[ChiDragon]

1. is youngest daughter not oldest.

 

I agree with your last bit.

 

Sorry, the trigrams start with the top line as the youngest; and the hexagram starts with the bottom line as the youngest. I will make the corrections accordingly. Thank you....!!! It has been for a while since I had studied the Yi Jing......

Edited September 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

 

Sorry, the trigrams start with the top line as the youngest. And the hexagram starts with the bottom line as the youngest. I wll make the corrections. Thank you....!!! It has been for a while since I had learned the Yi Jing......

 

 

No problem I'm reading up on the Yi Jing at present so its fresh in my mind

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thought I should state for the record:

 

 

The method I'm applying (however well...) was learned by Zhongxian Wu from a mountain Daoist of the Youlong Pai lineage, which traces back to The Eight Immortals. The book includes a long lineage of Yijing prediction knowledge, which goes back to nei gong teachers from about 10th century AD.

 

 

Also, mistaken understandings and even natural phenomena can help in determining which gua/guas is/are being referred to. In this case, the totally unintentional mis-attempt led me to see the only feasible way that the transmission makes (perfect) sense as an indication of which hexagram(s) to read.

 

note: oldest daughter suggests older woman, middle daughet suggests middle age, youngest daughter suggests younger... this is why I say," daughter" likely suggests youngest daughter/joyfullness/Dui.

[deci belle]

No one has mentioned Diminishing, the 41st hexagram. And I'd been waiting some time… so I'll go ahead with this.

 

Joy is the primal gua, having been mentioned at the beginning and the end.

 

Daughter under Mountain is Diminishing.

 

For the 16th to result in 41st, there are four changing lines.

 

Both gua contain Earth, Mountain and Thunder. Earth and Mountain are related; Earth being the elder.

 

Thunder is the Voice of Heaven. Thunder is the house of the ruler in the upper trigram of Joy.

 

Standard procedure when there are four changing lines is to read the uppermost static line. In this case it is the 5th line, the heart of Thunder.

 

But this is not enough. Going through the sequence, the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th lines are a time-line.

 

Line 1 is "trumpeting joy bodes ill", "harmonizing with the 4th and rejoicing in this; having no real qualities in oneself, only aspiring to cleave to others. I did say in my post above that I would have never told a soul (if I'd had this experience).

 

This is why my thread for r v, which I posted just after my second comment here, started out discussing independence from social cliques.

 

Line 2 stands for the ultimate in darkness and stillness. As I said in my second post, the time of withdrawl is just this ultimate of darkness and stillness void of intellectualism.

 

Line 4 is "the source of joy, there is great gain; do not doubt, companions gather. "As for those who are weak but balanced, they keep their uprightness, so do not doubt them. If you do not doubt them, then your association will grow stronger".

 

This speaks of correct association based on weakness. True yin is solid, solitary, profound; not subject to the vagaries of the outer brightness of society. What is not to be doubted is your own true self. The companions are sense and essence.

 

Line 6 says "Oblivion in joy is at the top. There is no blame." When you get through changes, nothing lasts. Therefore one who has transcended changes does not loose oneself in the joy of oblivion. This is not identifying with the absolute in the aftermath of realization, not sinking into emptiness. One then turns individual liberation into collective liberation. This is how there can be no blame.

 

———————————

 

Line 5 is balanced (as is line 2), so neither gets addicted to joy. This is chastity. But since it is a yin line in the fifth place, it is not correct. It gets it's strength from the 4th line, which is also not correctly placed, it manifests illness.

 

Chaste in illness, one never dies. Not dying means one is balanced. The firmness of chastity is refining oneself in the midst of pollution (as in illness).

 

This is a message of persistence in the face of general malaise. It's a fine thing to have an immortal looking in on Vous!!❤

As for Diminishing, the 41st gua, one diminishes anger and cupidity. What is this if not the working definition of self-refinement?

 

Panda has her work ahead of her well-defined and well-guided, it seems…