Xiao Yao Pai

[zerostao]

in XYP there is no tie-we are not tied- we are free to quit.

there is no oath, no prohibition, it is a weird system at first glance but it has deep meaning, very deep.

in XYP we are responsible for our own life and we remain free human.

free from attachment,, we become Xiao Yao carefree.

i dont think this could happen if based on shamanism or passed down Fa

 

does it sound like a cult?

[effilang]

Interesting

 

Wu Shi Flowing Hands, how would you have reacted and what would you think of your spiritual efforts and life thus far, had TSLJ replied to you, that us XYP guys weren't fooling ourselves at all, and actually he had connected us all personally to a Xian/Tian Shen and are his disciples?

 

What reaction would that prompt in you and what would be the reason you feel that way?

Edited September 10, 2013 by effilang

[flowing hands]

Interesting

 

Wu Shi Flowing Hands, how would you have reacted and what would you think of your spiritual efforts and life thus far, had TSLJ replied to you, that us XYP guys weren't fooling ourselves at all, and actually he had connected us all personally to a Xian/Tian Shen and are his disciples?

 

What reaction would that prompt in you and what would be the reason you feel that way?

 

It really makes no difference to me in the slightest. What I am solely concerned with is what is actually happening. If Li Erh said to me I'm taking on a bunch of people through another sect then what has it got to do with me? Every day Li Erh probably takes on a new follower from many of the temples in S. Asia, where he is a bond brother to other Immortals. He also may take on a novice shaman from time to time. This has nothing to do with me either. The Immortal masters take on many followers and teach them to certain levels and very rarely they take on a 'inside' student which they heavily give their time to.

 

The Dao is far reaching, unbiased, and unprejudiced. Those who follow the Dao reflect this. That's what I feel, what the Immortal masters do is none of my business, I am happy to receive their teachings and to follow them faithfully as I have done for more than thirty years.

 

i do appreciate you looking out for me/us/XYP. it is a system to always test.

i still wonder if you are basing your judgement on shamanism? that seemed to be the crux of our previous discussions.

 

"When you are 'initiated' into XYP, I assume that the master is giving you his 'fa' and this 'fa' has been passed down through time from one master to another, even though a new sect may have been established, the 'fa' remains.

 

This extra power (fa) that is put into the your body may have all sorts of historical 'commands'. Some of these commands may date back hundreds if not thousands of years to the ancient wu."

 

this doesnt fit with XYP system. Tao Yin is disciple acceptance only. we are accepted as a disciple by the XYP master and due to his Spiritual level we will be given FFS who is on duty in the name of TSLJ. FFS is Taoist Shen Xian. FFS teaches us about energy but also about wisdom and even sometimes instructs us in the very simple mundane things such as sleep,doing chores, work, school, etc. this isnt possible in the method that uses Fa as you mentioned, is it?

even in using divine power, our system does not use a "pass down Fa" but each and every disciple develops their own power of Fa Shu.

my XYP friend said that the system you mention is the most common Fa in the magic world. the Fa pass down directly and the disciple must control and master it. but TYS emphasis is on wisdom and not magic, so, we dont use that system.

so you are comparing a system that we dont use. you are basing on shamanism and pass down power and we dont use that.

 

one thing about your statement, that learning from an immortal is very difficult because people cannot find the way--but, if you do meet with a height level Spiritual master, it could become easier, becoz the model is based simply on honesty and sincerity. i do not mean to doubt your conversation with your immortal teacher but it is better for me to avoid any personal analysis of that.

 

No this it is not shamanism, the giving of a fa by one human to another human down from one master to a student. Shamanism involves the relationship and teaching of a spirit master to a human. There is a great difference. Well lets put it another way, you are given a 'power' which involves the changing of your perception of your mind and body. You can call it what you want, it amounts to the same thing.

 

The Dao treats all things equally; that is the good and the bad, therefore sincerity and honesty may be seen to be more spiritual by moralists than the opposite, but a Daoist would see them all as part of one whole and so a sage does not give more preference to one or the other. A bad man can come into the temple and still be able to draw the fa fu, because this is an opportunity for learning and he may tread a different path once he has seen a different way of being. Or he may not and use his power for selfish gain. There are no set rules, but great learning by having no rules!

[Friend]

So what is your advice -Wushi Flowing Hands-

for those who wants continue the Xiao Yao Pai

but also want to listen to your advice

about possible things to be considered?

 

People are aware now that learning from Immortals

is difficult and play by unknown rules and factors.

 

They may work with "Fa" and "Deities" methods

to go as far as possible in their spiritual development,

as it feels as it is better to do something than

rather not do something.

 

Again you know that the "no risk policy"

is something people find most safe.

 

People are go to visit Lions even they

know they may end up in a Lion, still

they want to minimize this possibility.

 

So what can be done to enhance safety

while exploring such teachings?

[zerostao]

flowing hands,

"It really makes no difference to me in the slightest. What I am solely concerned with is what is actually happening. If Li Erh said to me I'm taking on a bunch of people through another sect then what has it got to do with me? Every day Li Erh probably takes on a new follower from many of the temples in S. Asia, where he is a bond brother to other Immortals. He also may take on a novice shaman from time to time. This has nothing to do with me either. The Immortal masters take on many followers and teach them to certain levels and very rarely they take on a 'inside' student which they heavily give their time to."

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24476-xiao-yao-pai/page-6

 

yes, I know FH, your methods are very common in asia. In sngapore it is called Tang Ki.

In Indonesia it is called Ki Thang as you can see in the videos in the above link.

BTW where do you live and what is you call your method?

 

"No this it is not shamanism, the giving of a fa by one human to another human down from one master to a student."

yes, i know it exactly and XYP system does not use this way in learning the system

 

"Shamanism involves the relationship and teaching of a spirit master to a human."

yes, i know it, it is your method and it the most common method in traditional Chinese temple. but XYP does not use this method. so all of your prejudice to XYP are wrong because it is based on your personal assumption that are incorrect.

and you wrote;

"The Dao is far reaching, unbiased, and unprejudiced. Those who follow the Dao reflect this."

but i see that you have shown prejudice since the beginning. when you said that we use pass down fa,

isnt this prejudice?

[Dagon]

in XYP there is no tie-we are not tied- we are free to quit.

there is no oath, no prohibition, it is a weird system at first glance but it has deep meaning, very deep.

in XYP we are responsible for our own life and we remain free human.

free from attachment,, we become Xiao Yao carefree.

i dont think this could happen if based on shamanism or passed down Fa

 

does it sound like a cult?

 

Sounds like a good practice to me.

 

What are some of your beliefs in that system Zerostao?

 

(I mean things that others might find hard to believe without personal evidence or experience.)

 

 

Because the power that we are given is so powerful it can so easily fool oneself into believing that lots of different things are happening.

 

 

How do you know when you have become infallible?

Edited September 12, 2013 by Dagon

[zerostao]

"What are some of your beliefs in that system Zerostao?"

 

that this is a function based system rather than a belief based system.

[flowing hands]

So what is your advice -Wushi Flowing Hands-

for those who wants continue the Xiao Yao Pai

but also want to listen to your advice

about possible things to be considered?

 

People are aware now that learning from Immortals

is difficult and play by unknown rules and factors.

 

They may work with "Fa" and "Deities" methods

to go as far as possible in their spiritual development,

as it feels as it is better to do something than

rather not do something.

 

Again you know that the "no risk policy"

is something people find most safe.

 

People are go to visit Lions even they

know they may end up in a Lion, still

they want to minimize this possibility.

 

So what can be done to enhance safety

while exploring such teachings?

 

Well, whatever faith you belong to it is best to go to a 'blessed', 'open eye' temple. There you can be assured that when you ask or beg to be taught nothing evil will be coming near you. When ztao refers to temple tang ki, these are not shamans they are quite a new development of mostly 'self' possession, nearer to the s. American shamans, who may take drugs to enter into an altered state. I have watched several clips of these so called mediums and was struck by how different they are to me even if they are supposedly possessed by the same Immortal. I watched a guy supposedly possessed by the Monkey God and it was nothing like I have ever experienced. I think it is more to do with showmanship and ego than reality. Many people want to be mediums as it represents a higher level and standing in the community. So fakers abound unfortunately. These people think that the Monkey has to move and play tricks, due to the fictional story of the 'journey to the west', but actually the Monkey God is a very sophisticated and talented person and really not like you would imagine a monkey to be. But then he is a realized Immortal and not just a monkey. An ordinary monkey may do all sorts of different actions and behaviors, but the Monkey God is certainly beyond this.

 

For human to human learning of power, find a Taoist master of a long lineage that takes its teachings from the Taoist cannon. Again don't expect to learn anything very quickly or easily.

 

For Immortal to human look for a shaman like me not a temple faker, the shaman will be baptized and able to draw fa fu, fa shui and do all sorts of other things if they are taught properly. There are quite a few around but they hide themselves and don't go on the internet, unlike me, who wants to save a world! Again a difficult way to learn and no guarantee of ever being successful. Most of them may be lay shamans and live in an ordinary way, this is the way Immortals prefer to teach people.

 

For spirit of the earth to human there are many paths and trap falls.

 

I don't really know how it works with other faiths, like Indonesian spiritual paths, but again it is quite possible that the same things appear in those faiths.

 

North American shamanism is still alive and if you can find a good one, not a plastic one, they can teach you the way of the chunumpa (pipe) and it will be real. They believe in spirits of the earth, not Immortals, although some of these spirits live in the sky. Remember the title of 'Immortal' is the highest level of spiritual achievement, above that of any other faith.

 

People can try begging the Immortals to come but they must have a ba sin fu (an amulet drawn by a shaman) on their person for protection when they are begging.

[Dagon]

I think it is more to do with showmanship and ego than reality.

 

 

I hear evil and fear can be banished with the heart energy fairly easily, (subjectively) is this true?

Of course there is the problem with finding the heart energy first.

I don't fear any of your immortals or spirits, not to be cocky, but honest.

[joeblast]

that this is a function based system rather than a belief based system.

functionality

 

problem with finding heart energy...well, some people dont know what it is, you'd get just about the same expression from a cardboard cutout.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4VqVUVdB4E

[Dagon]

What do you mean by "problem with finding the heart energy?" Where is the problem?

 

I don't know, there is no problem here but with all the wars and suffering there is a problem evidently.

 

The problem can be seen in the grand scheme. (imo)

 

 

haha Ven. Hsuan Hua once said that all demons are afraid of him and he doesn't fear any demon. Guess what happened to him? A sickness demon struck him with sickness and he died. Came back alive out of a coma though. Now consider your words wisely...

 

Still not afraid.

 

He died or went into a coma?

Edited September 13, 2013 by Dagon

[zerostao]

another thought or 2 about the 'functionality' of XYP

 

in XYP we are not given dogma and we are not told that we need to believe in anything. instead, we are challenged to test this system, consider the evidence and decide if we have proved it for ourself or not. we develop our own comprehension of life.

we are not taught some fabulous theory that makes grand promises of super powers. instead, we are positioned as any sage or prophet would be as they develop their wisdom. we dont base our system off of begging.

 

fh, you say that you are not in with the Tang Ki guys. but you share this is common with them;

you go to a temple and beg, connect with a shaman and become a disciple to the monkey god.

Tang ki does the exact same thing.

 

 

XYP does not go to the temple and beg. XYP is an ancient esoteric school that was more at home in a mountain cave than in a temple. we do not have any animal gods. we recognize that some animals like the spirit fox has some magic power but it is Yao Guai and not Shen Xian (taoist immortal) in XYP an animal cannot cultivate up to a Taoist immortal.

 

 

fh, you have said that you have been 'possessed' by Taoist immortal.

how do you recognize it as a true immortal and not something else?

[flowing hands]

another thought or 2 about the 'functionality' of XYP

 

in XYP we are not given dogma and we are not told that we need to believe in anything. instead, we are challenged to test this system, consider the evidence and decide if we have proved it for ourself or not. we develop our own comprehension of life.

we are not taught some fabulous theory that makes grand promises of super powers. instead, we are positioned as any sage or prophet would be as they develop their wisdom. we dont base our system off of begging.

 

fh, you say that you are not in with the Tang Ki guys. but you share this is common with them;

you go to a temple and beg, connect with a shaman and become a disciple to the monkey god.

Tang ki does the exact same thing.

 

 

XYP does not go to the temple and beg. XYP is an ancient esoteric school that was more at home in a mountain cave than in a temple. we do not have any animal gods. we recognize that some animals like the spirit fox has some magic power but it is Yao Guai and not Shen Xian (taoist immortal) in XYP an animal cannot cultivate up to a Taoist immortal.

 

 

fh, you have said that you have been 'possessed' by Taoist immortal.

how do you recognize it as a true immortal and not something else?

 

Any living thing can become an Immortal, some Immortals may have been animals and just transformed themselves into human form. The teaching you have been given lacks fundamental understanding.

 

No I connect with only the Immortal. No I am completely different I do not need to self or otherwise trance myself to communicate with the Immortals. Tang ki go into trance, they were called 'mediums' because that's all they could do. It is very rare for me to go into a trance because it is not necessary as I communicate with the Immortals without doing so. Now after 30 years I know when they are talking to me; they do not need to make their presence known to me physically as well.

 

Tang ki are only in some temples, others have shamans like me. I have watched many shamans at work and seen the tang ki also. They go into a trance of the same Immortal differently. Shamans are rarer, Tang ki seem to be all over the place. Some are of the left (hetrodox) and some are of the right (orthodox).

[zerostao]

Any living thing can become an Immortal, some Immortals may have been animals and just transformed themselves into human form. The teaching you have been given lacks fundamental understanding.

 

No I connect with only the Immortal. No I am completely different I do not need to self or otherwise trance myself to communicate with the Immortals. Tang ki go into trance, they were called 'mediums' because that's all they could do. It is very rare for me to go into a trance because it is not necessary as I communicate with the Immortals without doing so. Now after 30 years I know when they are talking to me; they do not need to make their presence known to me physically as well.

 

Tang ki are only in some temples, others have shamans like me. I have watched many shamans at work and seen the tang ki also. They go into a trance of the same Immortal differently. Shamans are rarer, Tang ki seem to be all over the place. Some are of the left (hetrodox) and some are of the right (orthodox).

fh, it is good that you dont have to be in a trance now. please review your post #61

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24476-xiao-yao-pai/page-4

 

Tai Shang Men clan Xiao Yao Pai clan has its origins from an ancient esoteric sage/hermit who developed wisdom, and Taoist exercises (meditation and breathing exercises)to increase conscious awareness. on the previous thread, fh, we debated about the shamanism/trance method as opposed to the entering divine realm in complete awareness. they are opposite systems. i mentioned several times that they cannot be compared as they are opposite. the shamanism decreases conscious awareness to contact the immortal

and on post # 67 you say;

"After this stage the apprentice shaman will be fully baptized by the experienced shaman in a full trance of the Immortal. "

 

Huang Ti, Lao tzu, Chuang Tzu speak about meditation to increase the level of consciousness. i have not seen them speak of shamanism.then in the next period of Taoists, there were Chang Tao Ling, Lu Dong Bin, Hua T'o and again they are talking abount internal alchemy and meditation and not shamanism. all of their systems were to increase conscious awareness.

 

i understand that many folks resonate with shamanism, that is fine if that is what they want > shamanism, then yes, flowing hands is a way to go. flowing hands, i still feel that you have not grasped the differences between XYP and shamanism and that differing schools exist with different methods. i know you like to promote shamanism and your brand of shamanism. XYP is the opposite of shamanism. if anyone prefers to try the shamanism that is fine with me. i never said that XYP is the only way. personally, i dont want to enter a trance with decreased awareness while encountering other spirits. sometimes possession occurs(being controlled by another awareness) but to each their own, i suppose. i wish everyone the best of luck in their pursuits

[flowing hands]

fh, it is good that you dont have to be in a trance now. please review your post #61

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24476-xiao-yao-pai/page-4

 

Tai Shang Men clan Xiao Yao Pai clan has its origins from an ancient esoteric sage/hermit who developed wisdom, and Taoist exercises (meditation and breathing exercises)to increase conscious awareness. on the previous thread, fh, we debated about the shamanism/trance method as opposed to the entering divine realm in complete awareness. they are opposite systems. i mentioned several times that they cannot be compared as they are opposite. the shamanism decreases conscious awareness to contact the immortal

and on post # 67 you say;

"After this stage the apprentice shaman will be fully baptized by the experienced shaman in a full trance of the Immortal. "

 

Huang Ti, Lao tzu, Chuang Tzu speak about meditation to increase the level of consciousness. i have not seen them speak of shamanism.then in the next period of Taoists, there were Chang Tao Ling, Lu Dong Bin, Hua T'o and again they are talking abount internal alchemy and meditation and not shamanism. all of their systems were to increase conscious awareness.

 

i understand that many folks resonate with shamanism, that is fine if that is what they want > shamanism, then yes, flowing hands is a way to go. flowing hands, i still feel that you have not grasped the differences between XYP and shamanism and that differing schools exist with different methods. i know you like to promote shamanism and your brand of shamanism. XYP is the opposite of shamanism. if anyone prefers to try the shamanism that is fine with me. i never said that XYP is the only way. personally, i dont want to enter a trance with decreased awareness while encountering other spirits. sometimes possession occurs(being controlled by another awareness) but to each their own, i suppose. i wish everyone the best of luck in their pursuits

 

I think there is a mix up here; as a shaman I do not need to enter any other state to communicate with the Immortals. They have accepted me as their 'student', so they sometimes can be talking to me while I'm walking down the street. I do not need to beg them to come to me for them to communicate with me. I am their student, they are investing a great deal of time and energy into teaching me. After all I have a world to save and my credibility is very important. When I first started this certainly did not happen, but then time and teaching makes people more aware and more understanding about things, so they then begin to teach as much as possible.

The Immortals make you aware of many things. One of the first practices I was taught was mediation as well as martial arts. Now for some years I do not need to meditate. The way I was taught increased my awareness to 'enlightenment', being baptized by another shaman is a simple ritual where any followers are baptized into the faith. I was one of several at the time.

Of course shamanism was the first form of Taoism. The yin/yang symbol comes from shamanism. Most of the practices of Chang Tao ling etc. have their roots in shamanistic practices as well as TCM, martial arts etc. Chang Tao Ling started a different system, but many of the rites come from the ancient wu.

 

I think your teacher should give his name and his background. In trad. practices sifu's and masters are all about their lineage and it is most important. If a sifu does not do this they generally are not trusted to have a good reputation or lineage. Ie the sifu must stand by what he has been taught and the system he has inherited, if it is genuine.

[zerostao]

I think there is a mix up here; as a shaman I do not need to enter any other state to communicate with the Immortals. They have accepted me as their 'student', so they sometimes can be talking to me while I'm walking down the street. I do not need to beg them to come to me for them to communicate with me. I am their student, they are investing a great deal of time and energy into teaching me. After all I have a world to save and my credibility is very important. When I first started this certainly did not happen, but then time and teaching makes people more aware and more understanding about things, so they then begin to teach as much as possible.

The Immortals make you aware of many things. One of the first practices I was taught was mediation as well as martial arts. Now for some years I do not need to meditate. The way I was taught increased my awareness to 'enlightenment', being baptized by another shaman is a simple ritual where any followers are baptized into the faith. I was one of several at the time.

Of course shamanism was the first form of Taoism. The yin/yang symbol comes from shamanism. Most of the practices of Chang Tao ling etc. have their roots in shamanistic practices as well as TCM, martial arts etc. Chang Tao Ling started a different system, but many of the rites come from the ancient wu.

 

I think your teacher should give his name and his background. In trad. practices sifu's and masters are all about their lineage and it is most important. If a sifu does not do this they generally are not trusted to have a good reputation or lineage. Ie the sifu must stand by what he has been taught and the system he has inherited, if it is genuine.

[h.uriahr]

I think there is a mix up here; as a shaman I do not need to enter any other state to communicate with the Immortals. They have accepted me as their 'student', so they sometimes can be talking to me while I'm walking down the street. I do not need to beg them to come to me for them to communicate with me. I am their student, they are investing a great deal of time and energy into teaching me. After all I have a world to save and my credibility is very important. When I first started this certainly did not happen, but then time and teaching makes people more aware and more understanding about things, so they then begin to teach as much as possible.

The Immortals make you aware of many things. One of the first practices I was taught was mediation as well as martial arts. Now for some years I do not need to meditate. The way I was taught increased my awareness to 'enlightenment', being baptized by another shaman is a simple ritual where any followers are baptized into the faith. I was one of several at the time.

Of course shamanism was the first form of Taoism. The yin/yang symbol comes from shamanism. Most of the practices of Chang Tao ling etc. have their roots in shamanistic practices as well as TCM, martial arts etc. Chang Tao Ling started a different system, but many of the rites come from the ancient wu.

 

I think your teacher should give his name and his background. In trad. practices sifu's and masters are all about their lineage and it is most important. If a sifu does not do this they generally are not trusted to have a good reputation or lineage. Ie the sifu must stand by what he has been taught and the system he has inherited, if it is genuine.

 

What's your full name and background info?

[james liem]

Don't embarrass your immortal teachers and yourself by saying that any living thing can become a immortal. Don't fool us by your unlogical explanations.

[flowing hands]

Don't embarrass your immortal teachers and yourself by saying that any living thing can become a immortal. Don't fool us by your unlogical explanations.

[Friend]

He want to say he wants to hear the elaboration about

"any living beings can become a immortal"

from the standpoint how it was teached to you.

[h.uriahr]

What's your full name and background info?

 

I'll start.

 

I'm Herschel Robinson

 

 

[h.uriahr]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that'll talk to me lol.

 

Why hide yourself, why

If you have nothing to hide

Be free, come outside

 

 

 

Ok ok sorry for the sucky haiku, to be honest I forgot the rules

 

 

[flowing hands]

I'll start. I'm Herschel Robinson

 

 

Hey don't be a bully! My name is Flowing Hands and info about me is on my website OK

[h.uriahr]

 

Hey don't be a bully! My name is Flowing Hands and info about me is on my website OK

 

So your utility bills and Internet bills come addressed to Shaman Flowing Hands?

[Friend]

Hey don't be a bully! My name is Flowing Hands and info about me is on my website OK

Flowing Hands offers "Fa Fu" for Healing and for Exorcism.

A new DVD about "Hua Tuo Xian Shi's Sweeping Moon Yin and Yang Form"

is coming soon.

Also there is fun to see blessing with Sky Laterns.