Marblehead Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) Chapter 1: Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease Section 7( b ): The useless tree Concepts discussed in Chapter 1, Section 7( b ) are: The usefulness of the useless http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html (Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1) Edited September 8, 2013 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) I'm pretty sure alianthus is at least partially edible, and if its as big as the guy says, then. Its a little late to go moving it .but horticulture aside, this section suggests that one might find advantage in not being exploitable. Reitterating the idea that circumstance determines whether a trat is of potential benefit, the general assumption that the thing is not GOOD is again shown to be bogus perspective. Section eight? Edited September 8, 2013 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) Seems to me that ZZ is tying up the spiritual journey of the free wanderer. Not like those who view useful and useless or master Jung of Song who viewed external or internal... he offers many free wanderer examples so far, including Yao which I have pointed out. The so-called useless tree here is the character Shu (樹). This also means to plant (cultivate) and has been used in previous sections along that line... so here is one spiritual metaphor he has been working on. Edited September 8, 2013 by dawei 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 8, 2013 Temporal interpretation: 惠施对庄子说:“我有一棵大树,人们把它叫樗。这棵大树的树干长着凹凸不平的大疙瘩,无法打上墨线,它的小枝又都弯弯曲曲,不合乎木匠的规矩,生长在道 路上,木匠连看也不看它一眼。现在你说的那些言论,都是大而无用的,所以大家都弃你而去。”庄子说,“先生你没看那野猫和黄鼠狼吗?它把身子伏在地上,以 等候那些来来往往的小动物。东西跳跃,不辟高低,踏中机关,死于网罟。现今的牦牛,它的庞大的身驱象挂在天上的云彩,这头牛能力很大,然而不能捕鼠。现在 先生有这棵大树,却忧虑它没有用处,为什么不把它栽到什么也没有的地方,以及那无边无际的旷野,然后来往徘徊在它的旁边,自由自在地躺在它的下面,使它遭 不到斧头的砍代而夭折,也没有什么东西来侵害它。它没有什么用处,又哪里会有什么困苦呢?” 7b: The useless treeMaster Hui said to Master Chuang, 'I have a large tree, which men call the Ailantus. Its trunk has grown unevenly with swells out to a large size; its smaller branches are knotted and crooked; it cannot even allow to apply construction line on it; it does not meet the standards for carpentry. It stood along the road side, the carpenters don't even take a glance at it. You have been saying that the large things are useless. Therefore, the people had abandoned you and left. so that the disk and square cannot be used on them. Though planted on the wayside, a builder would not turn his head to look at it. Now your words, Sir, are great, but of no use; – all unite in putting them away from them.' Master Chuang replied,'Have you not seen a wildcat and a weasel? They lies and crouching on the ground wait for the little creatures to approach; east and west it leaps about, avoiding neither what is high nor what is low, till it is caught in a trap, or dies in a net. Again there is the Yak, so large that it is like a cloud hanging in the sky. It is large indeed It's abilities are great indeed, but it cannot catch mice. Now, Sir, you have this large tree and are troubled because it is of no use; – why do you not plant it in a tract where there is nothing else, or in a wide and barren wild? There you might saunter idly by its side, or in then have the enjoyment of untroubled ease sleep beneath it. Neither bill nor axe would shorten its existence; there would be nothing to injure it. What is there in its uselessness to cause you distress?' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 8, 2013 Dawei made a good point about the free wandering. Not of physical wandering but of allowing our mind to wander and see the world from a different prespective. Useful/useless was a good vehicle for this concept. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 9, 2013 Maybe we should conclude with now explaining the fish transforming to a bird... It is late but I'll be back tomorrow to share my thoughts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 9, 2013 Maybe we should conclude with now explaining the fish transforming to a bird... It is late but I'll be back tomorrow to share my thoughts. Great idea Dawei! To recap each Chapter. I'll await your post (and I'm sure the Dragon will have something to say as well, Hehehe). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) In the previous section, ZZ used the hats to illustrate its usefulness/useless by location. However, in this section, he uses the big tree to indicate the usefulness/useless by purpose. Edited September 9, 2013 by ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 10, 2013 Maybe we should conclude with now explaining the fish transforming to a bird... Ok... so I am sure this is going to be an unexpected direction but it shows the idea that ZZ is describing a spiritual journey which is easy to support in itself based on the chapter discussion... but what of a fish and bird? We are lucky enough to turn to ancient archaeology of China to align what we read as mystic and esoteric stories of 'spirit-men'... and it aligns with what is stated about shamanistic cultures communication with the spirits. As the renowned archaeologist K.C. Chang notes: "Images of the various animals that served as the helpers of shamans and shamanesses in the task of communicating between heaven and earth, the living and the dead". Lindgred points out the 'ascensional symbolism' in her paper that "the spirit travel is often understood as a magical flight and as such bird symbolism tends to be associated with shamanistic beliefs". Both poems (like Chu Ci) and pottery in neolithic and painting into the Han associate shaman rituals to bird flight. Xi Wang Mu was often depicted as flying with the body of a bird. The neolithic Dawenkou culture has one of the earlier to have bird symbolism to spirits. And the fish: The neolithic Yangshao culture is one of the most complete and famous sites unearthed. This shamanistic village abounds in fish symbolism; usually a pair of fish swimming around the head of a Wu in meditation. In one such piece of pottery, a human head and fish are merged together as one. The fish represents life; the water spirit; and pottery of fish were often buried with the dead. Thus, the fish allowed the mystic to communicate to the netherworld and the bird to the spirits. The fish and bird are symbols of transcending beyond the physical realms.... a true free wanderer... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 10, 2013 Yep. That was unexpected. Valid though, I think. Birds and fish have been important, symbolic and literal, in most early cultures. I'm not sure there is enough support for the fish being a free wanderer but there surely is for the bird. Perhaps that is why the fish changed into a bird? Yes, free wandering. This first chapter gets us to open ourself for alternate thinking, both logically and spiritually. I think what Chidragon said is valid too. Much of the chapter spoke to the concept of useful/useless. This concept does base itself in purpose and location. And, as Dawei pointed to, Chuang Tzu had no problem with going back to Shamanic tradition in order to tell a story the way he wanted it presented. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 10, 2013 (edited) In the previous section, ZZ used the hats to illustrate its usefulness/useless by location. However, in this section, he uses the big tree to indicate the usefulness/useless by purpose. Useless -usefullness is always defined by purpose , a goal ,, without the goal "useful" has no meaning.. otherwise, everything is equally ---useless or useful. A thing is useful or useless to ME. or you . So by our desire , to have things be a certain way amenable to us a perspective is provided by which a thing can be said to have use or not. Edited September 10, 2013 by Stosh 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 10, 2013 Yes! I think ZZ, in the previous section, was using the hats showing that they have a purpose in one location but not the other. However, in this section, ZZ was using the defective big tree to show that it does not meet the purpose of a carpenter. In the other hand, the tree had met the purpose for being a good shade for someone to be relaxed underneath it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites