Siddhis in Taoism

[Kongming]

Does Taoism have the same concept of supernormal powers as Hinduism and Buddhism, i.e. siddhis? If so what sort of supernormal powers were they?

 

I recall while reading in Liezi tales of people who couldn't be burnt by fire, ride the wind, or preform seemingly frightening or impossible acts with the ease of spontaneous naturalness. Are these intended to be metaphorical or are they literal? Were supernormal powers something pursued in the Taoist tradition, something seen as a distraction toward a higher goal, or absent entirely?

[BaguaKicksAss]

The ability to become light, levitate, and Soul Project
The ability to become heavy
The ability to energetically shrink to the size of an energetic particle
The ability to energetically expand to an infinite size
The ability to create matter through the power of thought, and to control nature
The ability to realize, experience, and enjoy one's desires
The power to take any energetic form at will or to bring anything within one's reach
The power to control both animate and inanimate objects

 

According to Jerry Alan Johnson (CMQT vol 2, page 176) anyways. I was just on page 177 when I saw this.

 

He also lists some others, in a different category, but I don't feel like searching for them. I guess some stuff has to remain hidden :>.

 

Yes, yes I know I really should expand and read other authors too .

 

I think this is the case in all spiritual and metaphysical paths, various "powers".

 

However I have found through previous experience once you train for some specific power or group of powers/abilities, then get to the point they start working, you no longer want or need them . I hope that makes sense, some things are difficult to put into words. Also could just be me.

[Protector]

Taoism has wizards in it, sometimes as a profession. Not exactly wizards but more like normal priests who have abilities and do spells.

Some spells are cast using charms called Fu. These yellow papers with strange texts on them, mostly prayers and stuff that doesn't seem to do anything. In The Forbidden Kingdom Jackie Chan was trying to summon rain using one of these Fu.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6-ukenODnU

 

Didn't work out.

It's like a profession and takes a lot of studying. If you want to do it for powers then you might not get what you expected. I only know one guy who does it and it's working out for him, and another guy who just makes endless videos on youtube and it's not working out.

[Kongming]

If you want to do it for powers then you might not get what you expected.

 

I am not after powers, I wast just curious as to what Taoism's view and history of such powers are. It is interesting that certain traditions, such as forms of Buddhism and Hinduism, emphasize that siddhis are like signposts to show one has made progress on the path toward enlightenment, but not the goal themselves. It just made me wonder what other traditions views of this may be.

 

Interestingly enough, it seems the Zen literature I've read doesn't touch upon siddhis or powers much either. I wonder if such concepts are entirely alien to Zen or if they too have siddhis, especially since original Buddhism spoke of them.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I wonder about the signposts thing... it makes sense, and I have seen it happen. Yet I have also seen some folks brand to new a practice who can just naturally do quite a few things which are considered talents or powers. Then you get some folks who can do one or two who don't even have a spiritual practice and just wish they would stop. When I asked my teacher about such things, he said something about past lives and folks acquiring them before.

[Ya Mu]

I speak of awakening natural talents. And yes it does have a lot to do with where one is in their path; if they reached certain levels in past lives, etc.

The practice of authentic neigong can awaken those talents, sometimes in as little as a few minutes, sometimes in a year, sometimes 10 years; there is no way of knowing how long it takes.

Medical Qigong energy manipulation ability occurs within two days of practice in my workshops to a 70-100 percent ability to eliminate pain in someone else. Sometimes SEEing occurs within those 2 days.

 

I like to tell the story of the two "x-ray vision" girls who were at the medical qigong hospital I trained in in China. Within one year of practicing Stillness-Movement neigong they all of a sudden had the abilty to see inside the body, see organs, see sick qi, see down to cellular level. I have seen the same thing happen with my students.

Usually people start to see the sick qi in the first few workshops although there is no particular time table. I remember all of a sudden I did one day while working on someone. Now I see it whether I am looking at the person or not.

 

Other talents such as multidimensional awareness, hearing across the dimensions, hearing energy, "future" seeing, etc. can occur with raising one's energy body vibration rate with a practice such as Stillness-Movement Neigong.

[Thunder_Gooch]

"Those who speak don't know. Those who know don't speak."

-Lao Tzu

Edited September 16, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Starjumper]

In Taoism it is called: 'special abilities'

[thelerner]

"Those who speak don't know. Those who know don't speak."

 

-Lao Tzu

 

 

Perhaps, but to practice, heal, teach, carry on traditions.. then words become necessary.

[Starjumper]

The sage teaches without speaking.

[skydog]

"Those who speak don't know. Those who know don't speak."

 

-Lao Tzu

 

 

But in your case, you dont know, or speak. Just like to trash on people who do.

[Protector]

Ahem

[Thunder_Gooch]

Perhaps, but to practice, heal, teach, carry on traditions.. then words become necessary.

Here is my POV on the situation.

 

 

99.9999999999999999999999999999% of all teachers, resources, dvds, books, systems, etc., are disinformation. They don't actually lead anywhere.

 

99.9999999999999999999999999999% of spiritual seekers will die at the same level of spiritual development they were born at, even though they may believe otherwise.

 

Many of my friends who are into magick and occult topics explain to me that spirituality (magick and the occult too) is like art, like feng shui for your life itself, it helps decorate and color your life and isn't supposed to do anything more than placebo. It is artistic and entertaining and decorative additions to one's life that exists to better ones life.

 

 

I don't get that mindset, I want a scientific system with a clearly defined purpose, and clearly defined training methods, do this and it will lead to this, then do this and it will lead to this, etc. Simple, precise, clearly defined, methodical, purposeful.

 

 

What we have are literally millions of newage teachers writing millions of newage books that don't lead anyone anywhere, that don't actually do anything really.

 

And then we get this ocean of disinformation and no one who actually knows what they are talking about can be heard above the roar of the crowd.

 

The voices of the ignorant masses, drown out the voices of the few who actually know something meaningful.

 

So in this regard those who know "usually" know better than to try to open their mouth especially in communities like this where it leads to nothing but soul sucking, arguments, lasting months if not years with the worst sort of trolls/imbeciles imaginable.

 

 

Those who know, are "usually" smart enough to keep quite. Those who are ignorant aren't.

 

But in your case, you dont know, or speak. Just like to trash on people who do.

 

Yup that's it.

Edited September 19, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[thelerner]

Thelerner, did you attend Michael's healing application day? He teaches his Taoist Neuroenergetic Treatment without words.

 

 

Just the first 2 days.

 

Before I hit return I looked at my list, then crossed out the word practice. So I realize many things are indeed wordless.

 

MPG, I don't think its 99.9999% percent disinformation. Though the top people, in terms of the highest practitioners, you're probably right. But I don't need to study with a 'super saiyan' or living saint. In truth, somewhere between 49 and 51% of all people are 'higher' then me, in terms of spiritual practice. And I can learn from then. From fuzzy New agers to strict Zendo types. Though I tend to watch my wallet with it comes to claimants and disregard the most fabulous unless backed up by someone I respect.

 

And that been good. I think I've met people who are 'Siddhi level'( a very slippery term). There's about 9 people on this thread, and I think one of them is very advanced. Hmmn, by the odds of this thread the chance of encountering a really high level person is 11% !

[Flolfolil]

get to the point they start working, you no longer want or need them

SO true

[Starjumper]

Well, the way my teacher taught without speaking is that when we did our chi kung exercises, followed by our hour of sitting meditation (with high energy postures) everyone including the teacher would keep their yap shut and their eyes open. Sometimes the teacher would make a correction with hand signals but hardly ever.

 

BUT, before and after practice we would sometimes sit for hours around the little round table in his kitchen, which was in his garage, which is where we practiced, drinking tea. And then we would talk. We could ask questions which he would sometimes not answer, or give an answer to some other question, including telling us ghost stories (that he had personal experience with) and stories of his youth in China. However, during practice, where were really doing the important learning, there was NO talking. That is how the sage teaches without speaking.

 

Oh, and since this thread is about special abilities he would sometimes demonstrate little tricks with energy, which in some cases actually were tricks to see if we were paying attention.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Starjumper

[shanlung]

For all it is worth, for those who might not have seen my report I made of my meeting a Taoist Immortal, or Siddhi, or whatever name you want to give.

 

I cannot say more than what I wrote in that report.

 

Whether you believe, or not believe, is your choice to make.

 

 

Fragments of earlier memories of Taiwan

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/111670.html

 

[Jadespear]

"Occult abilities are just flowers of the tao, and the beginning of all foolishness." -- Lao Tzu.

[liminal_luke]

 

 

 

 

However I have found through previous experience once you train for some specific power or group of powers/abilities, then get to the point they start working, you no longer want or need them .

 

I suppose most people would see this statement as discouraging training for powers. Afterall, why put all that hard effort in if when I finally get the power I no longer want or need it?

 

I don't see it that way though. For instance, right now I'd like to have the power of clairvoyance and be able to know what other people are thinking. Like most would-be clairvoyants the attraction is an ego thing. I'd be most impressed with myself if I could do such a thing with real facility, and I imagine I could use the power to get other people to be impressed with me too. This power could prop up a false sense of self like nobodies business.

 

Now, imagine the amazing transformation that would have to occur for me to get to a place where I no longer "needed or wanted" this power. What a fantastic thing that would be to be a person who wasn't interested in impressing myself or anybody else that way. My sense of self would be so solid, so grounded!

 

If training to become clairvoyant will truly get me to the place where I no longer care, well...I can't imagine a more worthwhile endeavor.

Edited January 16, 2014 by liminal_luke

[Aeran]

Oh, and since this thread is about special abilities he would sometimes demonstrate little tricks with energy, which in some cases actually were tricks to see if we were paying attention.

 

 

What kind of tricks? Sounds like there are some cool stories there.

 

Honestly, the whole thing with power in spiritual systems reminds me a lot of the attitude towards sex in conservative Christian circles. It's something that's perfectly natural to want, that can be abused and dangerous or healthy and productive depending on the choices you make with it, but you've got all these people who obviously want it or are otherwise obsessed with the topic, running around trying to convince everyone of how much they really don't want it and really aren't obsessed with it. It's just another form of psychological repression.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Aeran

[C T]

What most people desire are only secondary siddhis. Powers used for gain are easy to acquire. In Buddhism, the major siddhis have to do with perfecting the paramitas with self-liberation as the goal. Minor siddhis like those mentioned in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, for example, are an indirect result of how perfect one can maintain the paramitas. Its a proportionate endowment.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I suppose most people would see this statement as discouraging training for powers. Afterall, why put all that hard effort in if when I finally get the power I no longer want or need it?

 

I don't see it that way though. For instance, right now I'd like to have the power of clairvoyance and be able to know what other people are thinking. Like most would-be clairvoyants the attraction is an ego thing. I'd be most impressed with myself if I could do such a thing with real facility, and I imagine I could use the power to get other people to be impressed with me too. This power could prop up a false sense of self like nobodies business.

 

Now, imagine the amazing transformation that would have to occur for me to get to a place where I no longer "needed or wanted" this power. What a fantastic thing that would be to be a person who wasn't interested in impressing myself or anybody else that way. My sense of self would be so solid, so grounded!

 

If training to become clairvoyant will truly get me to the place where I no longer care, well...I can't imagine a more worthwhile endeavor.

 

Hey knowing what others are thinking isn`t always a pleasan`t ability!

 

I think everyone should train for powers, since the work required to get said powers is generally really good quality spiritual work .

 

I think it is more that other things become more important.

 

Also... one day I decided I wanted to run a mile (major lifelong illness, a mile was pretty far to even walk, heh). So eventually ran that mile. It was pretty exciting... for a time. Well of course then I wanted to run 3, then 5, then a half marathon... At least with races you get a tshirt . I guess it`s sort of neat that I can now do something I never used to be able to (with training). I guess it is really handy when I`m about to miss a bus or am late for something...

 

The analogy sort of sucks, and only covers one aspect, but ah well .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hmmm, is the ability to help folks heal considered a siddhi? If so, that is a pretty awesome one . But it is also sort of more common than I think siddhis are generally considered to be??

 

Beats.... say levitation..... though .