Natural Law and Self-Preservation

[xor]

Terve,

 

I feel like it's a shame that I know so little about my Finnish and Germanic heritages, and wasn't raised with those traditions completely intact. Culture brings spice to the melting pot, and can sometimes help everyone in general (if you have medicinal knowledge for example).

 

Here's some Finnish culture for you(song):

 

 

Edited September 11, 2013 by Guest

[Aetherous]

Absolutely love that!

[thelerner]

Once again, all humans are homo sapiens. They can interbreed and reproduce. A man and a horse are different species. Although some may have breed they cannot reproduce.

Damn, you mean I've wasting my time with Stormy trying to birth a Centaur?

rats.

[Marblehead]

Damn, you mean I've wasting my time with Stormy trying to birth a Centaur?

rats.

Hehehe. Not a total waste of time. At least you got your rocks off the mountain and rolled them on down to the stream.

 

Greek mythology had a lot of that stuff going on. And it is said that there is some truth in all myths.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Marblehead

[eye_of_the_storm]

Re the topic of Horse etc...

You're right, a horse and a donkey can have kids. A male horse and a female donkey have a hinny. A female horse and a male donkey have a mule.

 

But hinnies and mules can't have babies of their own. They are sterile because they can't make sperm or eggs.

They have trouble making sperm or eggs because their chromosomes don't match up well. And, to a lesser extent, because of their chromosome number.

 

A mule gets 32 horse chromosomes from mom and 31 donkey chromosomes from dad for a total of 63 chromosomes. (A horse has 64 chromosomes and a donkey has 62).

 

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask225

 

The offspring are infertile

- lower rate of conception and higher rate of miscarriage

A mule is the result of the mating of a male donkey (jack) and a female horse (mare) to produce a hybrid. The much rarer hinny is the result of mating a female donkey (jennet) with a male horse (stallion) although the hinny is much harder to produce than the mule. The jennet's reproductive system is more efficient at detecting and eliminating foreign DNA than the mare's is. The hinny conception rate is lower and the miscarriage rate is higher. It really isn't possible to distinguish a mule from a hinny by appearance. Mules are anatomically normal and show normal breeding behavior unless gelded (castrated) early in life.

Mules are sterile due to an uneven chromosome count. There are have been a very few rare cases since the 1500s where female mules have been known to produce a foal when mated to a stallion or jack. Males are completely sterile, and as an old muleman said,"Ain't nothing meaner than a stud mule!" http://a-z-animals.com/animals/mule/

 

Zebras

Although zebra species may have overlapping ranges, they do not interbreed. In captivity, plains zebras have been crossed with mountain zebras. The hybrid foals lacked a dewlap and resembled the plains zebra apart from their larger ears and their hindquarters pattern. Attempts to breed a Grévy's zebra stallion to mountain zebra mares resulted in a high rate of miscarriage. In captivity, crosses between zebras and other (non-zebra) equines have produced several distinct hybrids, including the zebroid, zeedonk, zony, and zorse. In certain regions of Kenya, plains zebras and Grévy's Zebra coexist, and fertile hybrids occur.^[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra

So in nature there is no interbreeding even with "overlapping ranges" ... any such things have been forced and a result of captivity / human interference in natural law... with tends to result in a high rate of miscarriage.

//

In humans blood transfusion between different races can result in death

 

 

I am frequently asked why a potential donor's race is listed on the FDA approved "Uniform Donor Questionnaire" for volunteer blood donation. Besides ABO and Rh, there are over 30 major blood systems important in transfusion medicine. Our extended blood type is determined by the presence or absence of various membrane-bound sugars and proteins inherited from our parents. Most blood groups follow simple population genetics, meaning their distribution tends to be clustered in similar racial or ethnic populations. One example is in the Rh system. Approximately 15% of the world's population is Rh negative. However, in the asian donor population, only 1 in 1000 are Rh negative. As most people procreate with mates of similar ethnicity, similar genetic traits are reinforced.

As you are aware, race is important in tissue and hematopoietic stem cell transplants. In essence, the transfusion of cellular blood components IS a tissue transplant. Patients exposed to non-self red cell antigens through transfusion may produce antibodies against the sugars and proteins on the red cells that are different from their own. These antibodies, depending on type and strength, may trigger severe transfusion reactions and even death.

In the U.S., minority volunteer blood donations account for approximately 12% of all collected units. Most blood donors are of western/northern european descent. This disparity makes provision of compatible blood components difficult at times. A classic example is the need of red cell units by sickle cell patients. Some red cell antigens, while common in many racial groups, may be less common in the African-American population, again due to genetic clustering. With most blood donations coming from different donor populations, these patients tend to produce numerous antibodies over time, given their frequent requirement for transfusion. As antibodies develop, it becomes increasing difficult locating antigen-negative red cells in a timely fashion. By asking potential blood donors their race, we are able to electronically search for african-american components currently in inventory, decreasing the search time and increasing the likelihood of compatible red cells.

All blood donations are needed and greatly appreciated. We always ask people to be a donor, and be a regular donor.

Source:

Medical Director - Regional Blood Center
Blood Banking/Transfusion Medicine Physician

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101008111041AAg9veq

 

Bone marrow transplants also many difficulties...

 

 

Devan would need a marrow transplant. The prospect of going through chemotherapy for a second time and needing a transplant is daunting to anyone, but it's especially harrowing if — like Devan — you're of mixed race. Multiracial patients often have an incredibly hard time finding life-saving marrow matches. When Devan, whose father is Caucasian and mother is part Indian, was first diagnosed with leukemia, his family did a search of the international marrow registry that contains over 14 million donors and came up empty. "We knew there was nothing out there for him," Tatlow says.

...

To find a marrow match for anyone is hard. Even within one's own family, the chances of finding one are only about 30%. According to the World Donor Marrow Association, while two out of three Caucasians find a match, the chances of a patient from another ethnic background can be as low as one in four. Despite rapid improvements in marrow registries around the world, the global registry is still disproportionately represented by the U.S., U.K. and Germany — all predominantly Caucasian countries. For a multiracial person, the chances are usually even worse. Athena Mari Asklipiadis, the founder of the California-based Mixed Marrow, one of the only outreach groups devoted to recruiting mixed race donors, says "the numbers are quite staggering ... People compare it to winning the lottery."

Read more: http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1993074,00.html#ixzz2efDfRTCR

 

So the "only skin deep" is total nonsense / extremely careless+ potentially deadly if one is a medical professional

 

+ Race specific illness and vastly different reactions to different medications.

+ forensic testing

 

DNA Forensics

Through DNA testing, law enforcement officers are able to identify human remains or the individual responsible for a crime. DNA testing is a highly advanced scientific process that involves replicating the human DNA sequence to create a genetic map of an individual. Because of its reliability, DNA testing has become a significant factor in criminal cases. However, it has also been identified as having the potential to violate privacy and constitutional rights.

 

Process of DNA Identification – How Does it Work?

 

The DNA identification process consists of five stages: isolation, quantification, polymerase chain reaction (PCR), short tandem polymerase chain reaction (STR-PCR) and interpretation. Isolation refers to the extraction of DNA from the nucleus of tissue cells. After extraction, scientists quantify the DNA sample by ensuring that it is at least one billionth of a gram in size. If the sample is smaller the isolation process must be repeated. Next, through PCR, the single strand of DNA is split down the middle into two pieces and replicated to create a larger sample. Subsequently, through STR-PCR, smaller sections of the DNA sequence are replicated, permitting scientists to interpret the DNA and create a genetic profile of the individual from whom the original DNA sample derived. On average, a DNA test can take between five and ten days to complete.

Edited September 12, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Apech]

Re the topic of Horse etc...

 

 

The offspring are infertile

 

- lower rate of conception and higher rate of miscarriage

 

 

Zebras

 

 

So in nature there is no interbreeding even with "overlapping ranges" ... any such things have been forced and a result of captivity / human interference in natural law... with tends to result in a high rate of miscarriage.

 

//

 

In humans blood transfusion between different races can result in death

 

 

 

 

Bone marrow transplants also many difficulties...

 

 

 

So the "only skin deep" is total nonsense / extremely careless+ potentially deadly if one is a medical professional

 

+ Race specific illness and vastly different reactions to different medications.

 

+ forensic testing

 

Your comparisons don't stand up I'm afraid. Of course there are risks involved in blood and bone marrow transplant from person to person and it is true that different populations across the world have different percentages of different blood types. But no one is saying we are all identical. Groups of human population have for centuries (and millenia) been separated geographically and certain stresses and patterns have evolved due to a narrowing of the gene pool. However the test you refer to in the case of horses shows that humans from these groups can successfully interbreed and their off spring can also. So in a way you have shot yourself in your foot with this argument or comparison.

 

Race is a non-specific term which although it has no proper scientific definition is still used to refer to groups of people. Usually this is done so while ignoring the huge variations within these groups ... so for instance to call someone 'asian' is almost meaningless - unless you mean they are from somewhere in asia - so to with European and African. To say someone is black or white similarly covers a multitude of very different people.

[xor]

If human "races" breeding would lead to mules we would be missing out on some great literature...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Dumas

 

and music...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix

[eye_of_the_storm]

Race is a non-specific term which although it has no proper scientific definition is still used to refer to groups of people. Usually this is done so while ignoring the huge variations within these groups ... so for instance to call someone 'asian' is almost meaningless - unless you mean they are from somewhere in asia - so to with European and African. To say someone is black or white similarly covers a multitude of very different people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

//

 

There is a basic underlining similarity... but yes they do branch out

 

I think European for example is pretty well defined scientifically as Y-Haplogroup R1

 

and so on for the others

Edited September 12, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Marblehead]

 

Does mind precede matter or does matter precede mind?

 

 

I am a Materialist. What do you think my answer would be?

 

Re the topic of Horse etc...

 

 

The offspring are infertile

 

 

Yes. Lions and tigers have been artificially bred and here too the offspring are infirtile.

 

But then you alluded to humans interbreeding and the infirtility problem does not exist. This alone indicates that they are the same species.

[Apech]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

//

 

There is a basic underlining similarity... but yes they do branch out

 

I think European for example is pretty well defined scientifically as Y-Haplogroup R1

 

and so on for the others

 

Well thank you for this because it completely destroys what you are trying to say. If European is defined by Y-haplogroup RI as shown on your map then only the Celtic populations of Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany, Gascony, Catalonia and so on are actually reliably European (80% +). English people are only 60 - 80% European and the Portuguese and those in central France and Eastern Europe are 50 - 60% European.

 

BUT actually they are all European i.e. they live in Europe ...

[eye_of_the_storm]

I am a Materialist. What do you think my answer would be?

 

Yes. Lions and tigers have been artificially bred and here too the offspring are infirtile.

 

But then you alluded to humans interbreeding and the infertility problem does not exist. This alone indicates that they are the same species.

 

Studies regarding humans in this regard are less common than animal studies... they are around though ( I guess a newish area of study also)

 

You'll find some similarities...

 

// Without advanced medical intervention... chances of survival would be much less

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/10/the-prenatal-wages-of-interracial-relationships/#.UjGeMRAzd0Q

The prenatal wages of interracial relationships

By Razib Khan | October 3, 2008 6:04 am

It is the norm today to discuss race as a social construct. Less fashionable is it to explore race as a biological concept. When there’s no up or downside and the discussion is abstract I think most people can get away with benign neglect in regards to the second; but when your health is at issue people’s ears perk up. The HapMap. Here’s the first paragraph in Wikipedia on the HapMap:

The International HapMap Project is an organization whose goal is to develop a haplotype map of the human genome (the HapMap), which will

describe the common patterns of

human genetic variation

.

The HapMap is expected to be a key resource for researchers to find genetic variants affecting

health, disease

and responses to drugs and environmental factors….

 

The rationale behind the HapMap is practical, but its yield has a great deal of basic science relevance. Last year’s story about human adaptive acceleration does have connections with disease, but fundamentally its goal was fixated on questions of evolutionary anthropology and demographics, not clinical health. Of course “human genetic variation” can mean many things. There are after all de novo mutations which arise across the generations so that each child differs from their parents in a subset of deleterious mutants. This isn’t the focus of something like the HapMap (note the point about “common patterns”), but at some point I assume that full genomic sequencing will make these comparisons more concrete so as to help develop clinical regimes that are extremely individual tailored.

 

But on to the main topic at hand, next month in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology there will be an article on prenatal risks to pregnancies of Asian-white couples. From EurekaAlert, Asian-white couples face distinct pregnancy risks…:

 

>>>>

It’s difficult to estimate the prevalence of Asian-white couples, but 14.3 percent of Americans reporting Asian race in the U.S. Census Bureau’s 2000 survey also reported being of mixed Asian-white ancestry. Although past studies have looked at ethnic differences in perinatal outcomes, the majority of research has focused on white- African-American couples. Few studies have focused specifically on Asian-white couples, said El-Sayed, who is also associate chief of maternal-fetal medicine.

…

More specifically, the researchers found that

white mother/Asian father couples had the lowest rate (23 percent) of caesarean delivery, while Asian mother/white father couples had the highest rate (33.2 percent).

Because birth weights between these two groups were similar, the researchers say the findings suggest that the average Asian woman’s pelvis may be smaller than the average white woman’s and less able to accommodate babies of a certain size. (Asian couples had babies with the lowest median birth weight, so caesarean delivery was less common among those women.)

 

It’s important for clinicians to know which women may have an increased risk of caesarean delivery, so they can conduct proper counseling prior to childbirth, El-Sayed said.

 

El-Sayed and his colleagues also found that the incidence of gestational diabetes was lowest among white couples at

1.61 percent and highest among Asian couples at 5.73 percent – and just under 4 percent for Asian-white couples.

These findings weren’t altogether surprising: past studies have shown an increased risk of diabetes among Asian couples, which researchers attribute to an underlying genetic predisposition. But the interesting finding, El-Sayed said, was that the risk for interracial couples was about the same regardless of which parent was Asian.

If you read this weblog you won’t be too surprised. Two years ago there was a paper in Nature Genetics which reported a result that African Americans may have heightened risks for heart problems because they are a genetically admixed population. It seems that an allele which African Americans inherited from their European ancestors (20-25% of African American ancestry is European) results in inflammatory problems against a West African genetic background (deleterious gene-gene interactions). Racially mixed individuals in Hawaii seem to be more likely to be obese; the process might be purely cultural in derivation, but there might also be risks due to interaction of metabolically related loci. Finally, different frequencies in blood groups can result in higher miscarriage rates for some combinations.

 

The first example is one where Europeans and West Africans are disjoint in allelic frequency; the genetic variation among Europeans is just not found in West Africa. The last example is one where the groups overlap, but, the average between group differences matter. In both of these cases there isn’t something mystical going on; God is not smiting those who are sinning by crossing racial lines. Human spontaneous abortion rates are high. Much of this might be due to mother-child immune system responses. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that people from very genetically distinct populations have very different immune profiles. One byproduct of this is to produce new and novel genetic combinations in offspring. This might result in a more robust immune system in terms of defenses against common diseases since the immune profile is so rare that pathogens haven’t had to adapt against it. But, it also causes problems when it comes to tissue matching for organ transplants; mixed-race children exhibit a synthetic immune profile which has similarities with, but is rarely identical to, individuals from the two populations which their parents derive from. All this is presupposed on the viability of the offspring. What about the large number of spontaneous abortions (miscarriages)? There is some data which might suggest that genetic relatedness increases reproductive fitness, possibly because of reduced risk of immune incompatibilities between mother and fetus when the father is more closely related to the mother. It stands to reason then that as the father becomes more genetically distant the likelihood of incompatibilities might increase.

 

All of this means that genes matter, and they matter in ways we can possibly predict. For example, imagine a population where everyone has blood group O (many Native American tribes are like this) and another where everyone has blood A (I believe this is close to true for the Blackfeet). If you make the claim (which is empirically defensible, see links above) that women who are O blood group will have much higher rates of miscarriage when they are carrying babies from males who are of blood group A, you can conclude that matings between the first population and second will have reduced fertility. But, the same applies to people from populations where there is a fair amount of blood group variation. If a woman from a village in Norway of blood group O marries a man from the same village of blood group A, even if they are cousins she will have the same heightened risk of miscarriage. There’s nothing mystical in the blood here, it’s simple genetics. The likelihood is a product of clear and distinct factors. Between population differences are often simply exaggerations of within population difference, though not always. Just because on any random locus 85% of the variation is found within populations and 15% between, that does not mean that on all loci 85% of the variation is found within populations and 15% between. On some genes nearly all the variance is between population and almost none of it within population.

 

Because of the results on Caesarean section rates they adduce that there is a pelvic size difference between Asian women and white women. Objective male observer acquaintances of mine have generally tended to back up this phenotypic difference between the populations. But, that does not necessarily speak to individual experiences, that is, if the authors corrected for pelvic size on an individual level they might not need to make recourse to population level generalizations. The results on gestational diabetes not being effected by the sex combination of parents strongly imply that Asian populations have some sort of genetic variant (or variants) which arose due to mother-child genetic conflict.

 

Edited September 12, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

Well thank you for this because it completely destroys what you are trying to say. If European is defined by Y-haplogroup RI as shown on your map then only the Celtic populations of Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany, Gascony, Catalonia and so on are actually reliably European (80% +). English people are only 60 - 80% European and the Portuguese and those in central France and Eastern Europe are 50 - 60% European.

 

BUT actually they are all European i.e. they live in Europe ...

 

Completely? haha

 

as i said, underlining similarity... but yes they do branch out

 

The R1 is a significant branch... those % are quiet significant ... that is quite a large group

 

there are other R variations (and what is referred to as European Haplogroups)... I think the images are enough to demonstrate my point

 

+ I wonder at more recent migration from other areas of the globe and how that has effected results...

 

Overall though I think the data is pretty conclusive

 

... and your statement

 

Race is a non-specific term which although it has no proper scientific definition is still used to refer to groups of people.

 

...has no basis

Edited September 12, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[ralis]

WWROA,

 

Maybe you should study phrenology to back up your assumptions. It is a wide open field.

 

 

"Phrenology as Justification for Imperialism": Spring Praxis Docume

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcfzB-bXuuQ

[Marblehead]

Studies regarding humans in this regard are less common than animal studies... they are around though ( I guess a newish area of study also)

 

You'll find some similarities...

 

// Without advanced medical intervention... chances of survival would be much less

I totally disagree with this but I doubt we could ever arrive at a peaceful understanding and agreement. So best we just agree to disagree.

[Apech]

 

Completely? haha

 

as i said, underlining similarity... but yes they do branch out

 

The R1 is a significant branch... those % are quiet significant ... that is quite a large group

 

there are other R variations (and what is referred to as European Haplogroups)... I think the images are enough to demonstrate my point

 

+ I wonder at more recent migration from other areas of the globe and how that has effected results...

 

Overall though I think the data is pretty conclusive

 

... and your statement

 

 

...has no basis

 

 

What you are picking up in that previous map is Celtic migration from central Europe to the fringes of the Atlanic in the period of about 450 BC to the Roman invasion of Britain as shown in this map.

 

 

 

The Celts were a distinct group with a particular culture - they migrated and they settled ... after this the Anglo-Saxon Germanic peoples moved in the pushed them to the outer edges of Europe. Their genetic similarities are no more significant than say your family and my family would be similar to each other. This does not make them a separate race and certainly not a species.

 

I don't wish to mis-characterise what you are doing but it seems to me that you are misusing all available evidence to confirm your own view which is to divide people on the basis of race. Why do you think this is either the correct or a good thing to do? What are your views on the different races which you seem to believe exist?

Edited September 12, 2013 by Apech

[thelerner]

I tend to think most of 'us' are Mutts, particularly when viewed in terms of the 200,000ish years Homo's have been Sapien. Good thing too, over long periods isolated groups tend to create inborn genetic diseases.