Chapter 2, Section 1 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Chapter 2: Adjustment of Controversies

 

Section 1: Heavenly music

 

Concepts discussed in Chapter 2, Section 1 are:

 

　

(Preface to the Chapter.)

 

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi2-.html

 

(Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 2)

Edited September 13, 2013 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

2. 齐物论(The Discourse of Equality)

 

　　南郭子聂靠几静坐，仰面朝天，缓漫吐气，形体木然，仿佛精神脱离了身躯。

颜成子游立侍在跟前，问说：“怎么这个样子啊？形体安定本来可以使它象枯干的 树木，而精神岂能可以使它象熄灭的灰烬呢？你现在靠几而坐的情况，不是你过去靠几而坐的情况了。”

子綦回答说：“偃，你问的问题，不也是很好的吗！如今我 忘掉了功名利禄的我，你知道这一点吗？你听到过人造的萧声，却没听到过地上自然形成的音响，你听到过地上自然形成的音响，却没听到过天空中自然形成的音响 吧！”

子游说：“请问三籁的道理？”子綦说：“大地发出的气，它的名子叫风。这风不作则已，一发作则上万种不同的孔穴都会怒吼起来。你没有听过长风呼啸的 声音吗？山林高大参差不齐的地方，百围大树上的孔穴，有的象鼻孔，有的象嘴，有的象耳朵眼，有的象春臼，有的象深大的洼地。有的象浅小的池塘；长风吹这些 孔穴所发出的声音，有的象湍激的流水声，有的象大火燃烧声，有的象呵叱声，有的象抽气声，有的象叫喊声，有的象号哭声，有的声音深沉，有的声音哀切，前面 的风声唱着，后面的风声随应着。微风则相和的声音小，疾风则相和的声音大，烈风停止了，则所有的孔穴就都空寂无声了，你难道没看见风吹林木枝叶还在摇摇曳 曳地摆动着吗？”

子游说：“地籁的声音不过是从众多的孔穴中发出来的罢了，人籁的声音不过是从用多种竹管并起来所制作的乐器中发出来的罢了。请问天空中自 然的音响是怎么回事呢？”子綦说：“风吹万窍而声音不同，然而使它们发作或停止的都是它们自己。都是自然状态所致，发动它们的还能是谁呢！”

2 - The Discourse of Equality

1. The sounds of Nature
　南郭子聂靠几静坐，仰面朝天，缓漫吐气，形体木然，仿佛精神脱离了身躯。

Tzu Chi is sitting still while leaning toward the table. He was looking up to the sky and exhaled slowly, seeming to be in a trance, and it seems like his soul had left trhe body.

颜成子游立侍在跟前，问说：“怎么这个样子啊？形体安定本来可以使它象枯干的 树木，而精神岂能可以使它象熄灭的灰烬呢？你现在靠几而坐的情况，不是你过去靠几而坐的情况了。”

Yen Master Cheng Yu(his disciple), who was in attendance and standing before him, said: "why is like so...??? When the physical body settles down, it can be turned into something like a withered tree; but how can the soul be turned into something like some extinguished ash. The position that you are sitting and leaning toward the table, now, is not the same as in the past."

子綦回答说：“偃，你问的问题，不也是很好的吗！如今我 忘掉了功名利禄的我，你知道这一点吗？你听到过人造的萧声，却没听到过地上自然形成的音响，你听到过地上自然形成的音响，却没听到过天空中自然形成的音响 吧！

Tzu Chi replied: "Yen, the question you've asked, wasn't it very nice...??? Right now, I had forgotten my ego about rich and famous(功名利禄), did you know about that....???" You have heard the sounds made by human; but you have not heard the natural sound made by Earth. You have heard of the sounds made by Earth; but you have not heard the natural sound made by Cosmos yet...!!!

子游说：“请问三籁的道理？”子綦说：“大地发出的气，它的名子叫风。这风不作则已，一发作则上万种不同的孔穴都会怒吼起来。你没有听过长风呼啸的 声音吗？

Tzu Yu said: "May I ask the principles of the three natural sounds....???
Tzu Ki replied: "The source putted out by the Great Earth, it was called the wind. The wind was calm when it's inactive; however, it produces all kinds of sounds from the different orifices when activated. Have you heard of the sounds that was made by the long wind.....???

山林高大参差不齐的地方，百围大树上的孔穴，有的象鼻孔，有的象嘴，有的象耳朵眼，有的象春臼，有的象深大的洼地。有的象浅小的池塘；长风吹这些 孔穴所发出的声音，有的象湍激的流水声，有的象大火燃烧声，有的象呵叱声，有的象抽气声，有的象叫喊声，有的象号哭声，有的声音深沉，有的声音哀切，前面 的风声唱着，后面的风声随应着。微风则相和的声音小，疾风则相和的声音大，烈风停止了，则所有的孔穴就都空寂无声了，你难道没看见风吹林木枝叶还在摇摇曳 曳地摆动着吗？”

The mountains and the trees are uneven and ragged. There are many opening holes in the big trees, some are like nostril, some like ears and eyes, some like 春臼, some like deep puddle, some like shallow pond. Some of sounds from those orifices made from the long wind were sounded like the torrent of running water, some like burning fire, some like yawning, some sounds are deep, some are sad, the sound in the front was singing and the sound in the rear was in harmony, the sound of the small wind was low and the swift wind was great. When the strong wind was stopped, then all the sounds come to a halt and become total silence. Have you not seen the vibration of tree branches and leaves when the wind blows....???

子游说：“地籁的声音不过是从众多的孔穴中发出来的罢了，人籁的声音不过是从用多种竹管并起来所制作的乐器中发出来的罢了。请问天空中自 然的音响是怎么回事呢？”

Tzu Chi said: "The sounds of Earth were, only, generated by air going through the orifices; that's all. The sounds made by human were only from the tubes which were made from many kinds of bamboos. May I ask about the natural sounds from outer space, how did they come about....???"

子綦说：“风吹万窍而声音不同，然而使它们发作或停止的都是它们自己。都是自然状态所致，发动它们的还能是谁呢！”

Tzu Chi replied: "The sounds from the orifices had blown by the wind are different. It was because they can be activated or halted; it was all done by themselves. It was only a natural phenomenon, who else can be the impetus.....!!!

Edited September 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yes, you are a work in progress.

 

 

I suppose that one could find a concept here if one wished to do so. Some interesting thoughts none-the-less.

[dawei]

In chapter one, the opening about the fish and bird is the important imagery which sets the stage for what will be explained; Here is the same issue with the opening lines:

 

南郭子聂靠几静坐，仰面朝天，缓漫吐气，形体木然，仿佛精神脱离了身躯

 

TZU-CH'I OF SOUTH WALL sat leaning on his armrest, staring up at the sky and breathing - vacant and far away, as though he'd lost his companion. Yen Ch'eng Tzu-yu, who was standing by his side in attendance, said, "What is this? Can you really make the body like a withered tree and the mind like dead ashes? The man leaning on the armrest now is not the one who leaned on it before!" -- Burton

 

Burton captures the essence of the meaning.

 

靠 - often translated as 'leaning' on his armrest but the imagery as the Shuo Wen states: 相違也 = To depart from.

 

This is understood also in the final part of this line which means: "Similar to the spirit separating itself from the body."

 

In the line "I had just now lost myself" (Legge), furthers the image. The gist of the questioning which follows is: Is there really a separation going on? (Or is separation artificially created in the sense and mind)

 

This is not so much about "Imagined Equality" but "Ultimate Unity".

 

The piping of man is the hollow of the pipe; the piping of earth is the pipe/flute. So what of the piping of Heaven?

 

The obvious answer may be Dao but I think Ziran is most appropriate as the idea is not to further separate this down but bring it all back together as One Sound; One Unity.

 

As man has a sound; earth alters that sound; heaven alters that sound. As heaven's piping dies down we return to the sounds of earth and man. The hollow is empty; the fills with air; then empties again based on the influences of heaven and earth. The imagery is one of layers of the whole, not separate entities.

 

The title should the: "The Sound of One Pipe".

[ChiDragon]

Section 1 of Chapter 2- The Physical and Conceptual Equalities

1. The sounds of Nature
Tzu Chi was sitting still while leaning toward the table. He was looking up to the sky and exhaled slowly, seeming to be in a trance, and it seems like his soul had left the body.

Yen Master Cheng Yu(his disciple), who was in attendance and standing before him, said: "why is like so...??? When the physical body settles down, it can be turned into something like a withered tree; but how can the soul be turned into something like some extinguished ash. The position that you are sitting and leaning toward the table, right now, is not the same as in the past."

Tzu Chi replied: "Yen, the question you've asked, wasn't it very nice...??? Right now, I had forgotten my ego about rich and famous(功 名利禄), did you know about that....???" You have heard the sounds made by human; but you have not heard the natural sound made by Earth. You have heard of the sounds made by Earth; but you have not heard the natural sound made by the Universe yet...!!!

Tzu Yu said: "May I ask you about the principles of the three natural sounds....???
Tzu Chi replied: "The source had putted out by the Great Earth, it was called the wind. The wind was calm when it's inactive; however, it produces all kinds of sounds from the different orifices when activated. Have you heard of the sounds that was made by the long wind.....???

The mountains and the trees are uneven and ragged. There are many opening holes in the big trees, some are like nostril, some like ears and eyes, some like a support pole(春臼), some like deep puddle, some like shallow pond. Some of sounds from those orifices made from the long wind were sounded like the torrent of running water, some like burning fire, some like yawning, some sounds are deep, some sounded sad, the sound in the front was singing and the sound in the rear was in harmony, the sound of the small wind was soft and the swift wind was loud. When the strong wind has stopped, then all the sounds come to a halt and become total silent. Have you not seen the vibration of tree branches and leaves when the wind blows....???

Tzu Chi said: "The sounds of Earth were, only, generated by air going through the orifices; that's all. The sounds made by human were only from the tubes which were made from many kinds of bamboos. May I ask about the natural sounds from outer space, how did they come about....???"

Tzu Chi replied: "The sounds from the orifices had blown by the wind are different. It was because they can be activated or halted; it was all done by themselves. It was only a natural phenomenon, who else can be the impetus.....!!!

Edited September 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

You need to do a lot of work with your grammer with that one but I still like it.

[ChiDragon]

I think I was lucky by getting the thoughts across. Please excuse the grammar because the classic text is so screwed up when it comes to that. Of course, I must admit that I am part of the reason too.......

[Marblehead]

Yes, I am sure it is quite a challenge to do an honest (literal) translation and yet keep it grammatically correct in the language one is translating to. Afterall, we are talking about a difference of some 2350 years. I can't even read Old English very well.

[ChiDragon]

Since I got this far, perhaps some English scholars would like to come in and do the rest for the grammatical corrections.

[Marblehead]

Since I got this far, perhaps some English scholars would like to come in and do the rest for the grammatical corrections.

Not me but thanks for the offer and the willingness to be critiqued.

[ChiDragon]

Not me but thanks for the offer and the willingness to be critiqued.

 

I knew it wouldn't work.......

 

 

Edited to add:

One must learn to accept critiques in order not to learn things half-S, you know......!!! Perhaps, one might let the self-improvement kicks in too.....!!!

Edited September 15, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I knew it wouldn't work.......

 

 

Edited to add:

One must learn to accept critiques in order not to learn things half-S, you know......!!! Perhaps, one might let the self-improvement kicks in too.....!!!

Yeah, I know I'm not afraid to do that. We have worked through those before when you were working on your TTC Chapters. It is just that there are others here and I would like for them to get involved too.

 

(But we should not consider Dawei to do this because you two get into enough arguements without any help.)

[ChiDragon]

(But we should not consider Dawei to do this because you two get into enough arguements without any help.)

 

Yes, if you have "to be said" so, then it's really getting to my "stomach"................

[Marblehead]

 

Yes, if you have "to be said" so, then it's really getting to my "stomach"................

Hehehe. But I'm sure he would say about the same thing about you.

 

I recommend that the two of you don't ever get married.

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, it took me so long to come to my senses about this Chapter. I think this chapter is the most difficult to comprehend. Let's look into its title: 齐物论(齊物論,The Physical and Conceptual Equalities)

The title 齊物論(齐物论) needs to be broken down to read 齊物 and 齊論. 齊物 is the physical equality and 齊論 is the conceptual equality. Zhuang Tze was saying that each of the physical things has a physical description and a conceptual description and they must be unanimous to become facts. Therefore, if we can get the facts straight, then, we shall not have any argument about it. The most people have many different views about one thing. However, if they have putted both the physical and conceptual descriptions together, then it might become more lucid and many unnecessary arguments can be avoided.

Edited September 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Agreed. This goes back to the objective/subjective arguement. It was a useless tree for some in 350 BC and it is still a useless tree in 2013. But for others it has always been useful.

[ChiDragon]

The mountains and the trees are uneven and ragged. There are many opening holes in the big trees, some are like nostril, some like ears and eyes, some like a support pole(春臼), some like deep puddle, some like shallow pond. Some of sounds from those orifices made from the long wind were sounded like the torrent of running water, some like burning fire, some like yawning, some sounds are deep, some sounded sad, the sound in the front was singing and the sound in the rear was in harmony, the sound of the small wind was soft and the swift wind was loud. When the strong wind has stopped, then all the sounds come to a halt and become total silent. Have you not seen the vibration of tree branches and leaves when the wind blows....???

 

Why did Zhuang Tze write the irrelevant parables like this. What are the wind, trees, orifices, different shapes of objects and the sounds all about.....???

 

Metaphorical interpretation:

The wind is the one who spoke first about a subject. Thus all kinds of people respond with a different voice by given their opinions, facts, fallacies, preconceived ideas as their basis for argument. One always try to use one's point of view to deny others by quibbling with all the minor details from their own recollection. Sometimes, people were still insisting that they are right, with a final word, by ignoring some new facts learned or just facts . After an endless argument with all the words were told and heard, some will agree, disagree, not sure, happy or upset. Then, all the sudden, everybody comes to a halt with complete silence.

 

[Marblehead]

Then, all the sudden, everybody comes to a halt with complete silence.

 

This doesn't happen nearly as often as I think it should. Hehehe.