The Sage goes to a motel....

[manitou]

But you are going to eliminate all your fears before you accept such a label, Right?

My feeling is that you are quite right here. The inner journey which leads to wisdom (Sageness) makes us aware that there is no separation between this and that, here or there, now or later. To feel fear is nothing more than holding in our minds the illusion of separateness. The Sage would have evolved in his thinking beyond this and found the oneness.

 

Is the sage a human?

 

Is Human allowed to have irrational thinking like love or faith? If so, why not fear?

I feel like he is a metaphysical dweller who must dwell on the physical plane. When the inner awareness of Oneness with All makes its appearance in our psyches, when the Awareness hits us, there is nothing left but a feeling of love. Faith is irrational, as is fear - when looked at in this context. Faith in what? Some religious entity 'out there?' Fear of what? Something separate from you? I submit there's no such thing. Matter is matter, regardless of how it is animated or fixated.

 

Any viable Master will lead one into ones' self where the answers lie.

[Brian]

I think much of the issue being discussed lies in the distinction between a fear and a phobia.

[manitou]

 

 

I wonder if its about eliminating all fears or just not giving in to them ... not sure ... they say a truly brave person is also a bit afraid (e.g. heros in battle).

I think that once the fear of dying is transcended, it takes but a moment to step into that realization on the battlefield. True, there is momentary fear, even within a Sage or an Enlightened One - but the next moment he realizes his mistake and transcends it; he is now capable of anything.

 

I always like to go back to the straw dog metaphor in the DDJ. Does the Dao really care who lives or dies? No, IMO. We're all part of the one - as in we're all tentacles on the same octopus, regardless of where or when in the world we have our existence. It is the connection with that understanding that truly makes us fearless.

[Friend]

How is the wisdom acquired?

 

By virtue in front of inner self.

The virtue is the sincerity.

The inner self the one who

is the wisdom.

 

The try to become wise is the goal of the

philosoph who is loving the wisdom

by knowing that she has no wisdom.

 

The only fault is the try to find

the wisdom by knowledge.

Knowledge is kind of parroting.

 

While a sage should as I think

has the abillity to "know

what is known and to know

what is unknown" as Confucius said.

 

The inner self is the key to reach

any possibility of harm from fate

because of the wisdom which is in

use and only ones own ego can render

wisdom useless by ignorance.

 

It is possible to reach immortality

without techniques or energy

just as an rare act of grace

by the inner self.

 

So the question is back to if it

"is wise to be arachnophobic?"

A Sage creates his own reality

already, his words and thoughts

are depth that it manifest,

the stronger the more near he

is the inner self.

 

The next question is

"Who is telling us and put this

person in the category of Sage?"

Next

"Has a Sage to be perfect or

does he just regain balance fast?"

 

As O-Sensei Ueshiba Morihei replied

on the question how he he not loose

balance :"Oh I lose it all the time,

but I regain it fast"

 

Michael J Fox told :

"I am careful not to confuse

excellence with perfection.

Excellence I can reach for;

perfection is God's business."

 

Then has the Sage create this encounter?

Then different than a commoner with

his wisdom.... how does he act (not react)

on the spider?

 

If we know then we know about a Sage

who had this spider phobia and do an

act we can recall of.

 

But as a commoner how can we know

if we are not live as Sages?

 

The only thing a commoner can know

from his point is that the answer might

be solved like in the Zen Stories or

like Rumi or Till Eulenspiegel.

 

Since I can not give an answer I can

only ask if it

"is wise to be arachnophobic?"

[manitou]

I wouldn't think that arachnophobic is something that someone wants to Be.

 

Is it wise to remain in a state of arachnophobia?

 

I would think the Sage would remove the fear before finding his Sageness.

 

All reality is relative. It is not substantial. It is perception. This we can have control over. I do not think the Sage was born the Sage.

Edited September 16, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

I wonder if its about eliminating all fears or just not giving in to them ... not sure ... they say a truly brave person is also a bit afraid (e.g. heros in battle).

Yes, this is one of those many where a person could easily cause me to change my mind if they submitted a reasonable arguements.

 

I have heard a number of extreme sports guy say that they experience a bit of fear at the point in time when it is time for them to do their thing.

 

Fear is a primal instinct. It is just that I think that most of our fears are unfounded and they prevent us from experiencing more of life.

 

Is the sage a human?

 

Is Human allowed to have irrational thinking like love or faith? If so, why not fear?

Yes to your first question.

 

I'll pass on trying to answer the other two questions.

 

My feeling is that you are quite right here. The inner journey which leads to wisdom (Sageness) makes us aware that there is no separation between this and that, here or there, now or later. To feel fear is nothing more than holding in our minds the illusion of separateness. The Sage would have evolved in his thinking beyond this and found the oneness.

 

You sure do love talking about separateness, don't you? Hehehe.

 

But yes, in essence, I agree with you. It's just that I would use very different words.

 

I think much of the issue being discussed lies in the distinction between a fear and a phobia.

That would be a good arguement against my opinion.

[manitou]

Yes, this is one of those many where a person could easily cause me to change my mind if they submitted a reasonable arguements.

 

I have heard a number of extreme sports guy say that they experience a bit of fear at the point in time when it is time for them to do their thing.

 

Fear is a primal instinct. It is just that I think that most of our fears are unfounded and they prevent us from experiencing more of life.

 

Yes to your first question.

 

I'll pass on trying to answer the other two questions.

 

You sure do love talking about separateness, don't you? Hehehe.

 

But yes, in essence, I agree with you. It's just that I would use very different words.

 

That would be a good arguement against my opinion.

 

 

Marbles, what is your opinion actually? That we truly are separate and there is no cohesion or order in anything? That this is all one big serendipitous accident? Please state your opinion in your own words.

 

A squirrel can communicate with another squirrel because they have the same brain construct.

 

A spider with a spider, a dog with a dog.

 

A human with a human. We Are all the same brain. We manifest our reality, whether we know it or not.

 

Yes, it does all come down to the error of separateness-thinking. We can choose the Me Against the World approach and live safely in a chair watching movies and eating popcorn all day - or we can engage life and live it without fear, realizing that we are actually The Manifester and there is nothing to fear. Does this fly in the face of what you would call common sense?

 

Fear is error-thinking. Do you think fear is primal, or is it something learned? My guess is that it's the latter. Returning to our natural state is the goal of the Sage, the Buddha, the Enlightened One, the Christ Consciousness.

 

There are two men lazing in the ocean, on rafts. One is lazing because he does not know what lurks beneath the surface, he is ignorant. The other is lazing because he knows what is there and realizes that those things are illusion, a creation of our communal manifesting mind. He has fretted over the creatures previously but now knows that they are illusory and his mindful Oneness with them protects him. Which is the sage?

 

Or, maybe we should define Sage.

Edited September 17, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

What a post! I have to break it down.

Marbles, what is your opinion actually? That we truly are separate and there is no cohesion or order in anything? That this is all one big serendipitous accident? Please state your opinion in your own words.

We each are one of the ten thousand (manifest) things. Yes, we are separate "things" but we each are a puzzle piece of the whole picture. Don't confuse me with a discordian. I'm not one of those. Man follows Earth, Earth follows Heaven, Heaven follows Tao, Tao follows Tzujan. What is Tzujan? It is the principle of the ten thousand things self-becoming. The Law of Naturalness. Yeah, the Laws of Physics as well as we can understand them now.

 

A squirrel can communicate with another squirrel because they have the same brain construct.

Yep. Generally speaking.

 

A spider with a spider, a dog with a dog.

Yep. Generally speaking.

 

A human with a human. We Are all the same brain. We manifest our reality, whether we know it or not.

Yep. Generally speaking. But then you continue that we manifest our reality and I can only partially agree with you here. Yes, we manifest our thoughts and goals and aspirations. But you did not manifest your mother and father. You were not here yet. You did not manifest the school you attended. So many aspects of your (and mine) life that you had absolutely nothing to do with. You had no free will in these matters. You had no choice. And your environment was different than mine and everyone else's.

 

Yes, it does all come down to the error of separateness-thinking. We can choose the Me Against the World approach and live safely in a chair watching movies and eating popcorn all day - or we can engage life and live it without fear, realizing that we are actually The Manifester and there is nothing to fear. Does this fly in the face of what you would call common sense?

But it isn't "me against the world". It is "me within the world". I try to live in such a manner that I don't offend others too much. It's not because I think they are my brothers and sisters, it is because it is the way I want them to interact with me. This is sometimes called "leading by example".

 

You think my little icon is a representation of my life? I worked my butt off yesterday first in the gardens and then at the ponds until the temperature got up to 95 degrees and I had to stop. Was I afraid that some spider might bite me while working in the gardens or that some pigeon might poop on my head? Never entered my mind. Nor did I have any fear when I got into the pond to pull one of the pumps for servicing. And if you have ever walked in a concrete pond with algae on the surface you will know that it is slipperier than walking on ice. Did I fear falling? No fear. But I was cautious.

 

Yes, if I had fallen it would have been my fault. I would have been the manifestor of my accident. That is why caution was used. This is called being aware of manifest reality and knowing that we must conduct ourself accordingly wherever we are.

 

Fear is error-thinking. Do you think fear is primal, or is it something learned? My guess is that it's the latter. Returning to our natural state is the goal of the Sage, the Buddha, the Enlightened One, the Christ Consciousness.

I know that!!! I ever preach it whenever I can. Yes, fear is both primal and learned.

 

Yes, being natural is the goal of enlightenment. That is bottom line. To be at peace with one's Self (inner essence).

 

There are two men lazing in the ocean, on rafts. One is lazing because he does not know what lurks beneath the surface, he is ignorant. The other is lazing because he knows what is there and realizes that those things are illusion, a creation of our communal manifesting mind. He has fretted over the creatures previously but now knows that they are illusory and his mindful Oneness with them protects him. Which is the sage?

Both are in error. The first cannot enjoy himself for his fear and the second one gets his leg bit off by a shark because he was not being cautious.

 

Or, maybe we should define Sage.

We (TTB members) have tried that before and we failed in finding a definition that satisfied all.

[manitou]

Actually, I think we do manifest our mothers and our fathers. Don't forget that our thinking is linear just because our brains are of a linear construct. It's all happening Here and Now. It's just an illusion that one moment comes before another, that our ancestors are in the past and our descendants are in the future. This is highly metaphysical, I know, and you wont agree with that at all.

 

Have you seen a lot of children come out of the womb with a fearful posture? Is an infant fearful until he is taught to be? I don't think so, I think this is the Original State we strive to return to if we are seekers.

 

What is the action of the Dao? It is reversion, no? Reversion to what? The void. Can we revert to the void unless we have gone back through the One? I don't think so. So we must go backward through the 10,000 things, back to the 3, back through the 2, back through the One. The void can be experienced through meditation, in my experience. But it is a momentary delight; staying close to the void is possible by dwelling in the One as much as one can mindfully do.

 

Return to the void is an experiential journey, an inner journey of inner realization, not outer knowledge. The two must be combined, IMO. One can follow a series of 'Aha's!' down to the pony under the manure pile. And this is only possible if, as you say, the goal is to find peace with your inner self. The fears must be removed for the illusion that they are.

 

Yours sounds like a type of middle way, which is a wonderful place to be. You are a good man, you have a good life. But I don't expect to see Marbles at the next meeting of the Order of the Quest.

 

I don't think we'll ever agree, all of us Bums, on what constitutes a Sage. There are multitudinous levels of thinking here. Our starting points are all different.

[Brian]

There may be more than just those two floating on rafts. A third, for instance, may be aware of what lies beneath and not believe it to be illusion but be accepting of the potential threat and lazing by choice.

[hydrogen]

 

manitou, on 17 Sept 2013 - 04:27, said:

Fear is error-thinking. Do you think fear is primal, or is it something learned? My guess is that it's the latter. Returning to our natural state is the goal of the Sage, the Buddha, the Enlightened One, the Christ Consciousness.

 

 

I fear any man who has no fear. No fear of lossing your loved ones? No fear of hurting innocent babies? No fear of killing your mom because God telling you so?

 

A man without fear is either a robot or a pure evil.

[suninmyeyes]

But you are going to eliminate all your fears before you accept such a label, Right?

I honestly don't now , don't even know about Sagehood , I mean I just mentioned it for the sake of being understood in the context of the thread ...

I don't think that I will eliminate fears per se as they are existing as a possibility , but will try not act upon them or claim the as mine and embody them unnecessary .

Some of them . Or most of them . All of them ? We will se how it goes ...They definetly feel like my psychological shoe is too small most of the time .

 

Unfounded and some twisted socially conditioned fears don't rock my world . Due to being more or less further away from the center of the being ones own fears are more or less imaginary and/or twisted .

This type of fear is dangerous for ones own well being and even physical health .

 

I do not believe (OK never say never though ) that it possible to exist 100 procent TOTALY fearless all the time.That kind of person is not a person and I dont see how could s/he have physical body .

 

I don't think we'll ever agree, all of us Bums, on what constitutes a Sage.

Maybe the question should be what does not constitute Sage ?

Edited September 17, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[manitou]

I just see the Sage as an enlightened one, that's all. The fear I'm speaking of is the fear of death, the fear from which all other fears spring if you trace them inward far enough. Perhaps I am a robot. I don't think there's such thing as evil, merely lack of light. The 'evil' concept is a bit dual for me.

 

If we Gnow that of which we are a part, the stream of energy that has always been aware, is aware now, and will always be aware, what is there to fear?

 

Marbles, I'm thinking we should just get a room.

[Dagon]

What does the arachnophobe fear even more than spiders?

 

What is at the root of his/her fear?

Fear of what?

 

Exactly.

I just see the Sage as an enlightened one, that's all. The fear I'm speaking of is the fear of death, the fear from which all other fears spring if you trace them inward far enough.

 

 

 

Very true.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Dagon

[Marblehead]

Actually, I think we do manifest our mothers and our fathers. Don't forget that our thinking is linear just because our brains are of a linear construct. It's all happening Here and Now. It's just an illusion that one moment comes before another, that our ancestors are in the past and our descendants are in the future. This is highly metaphysical, I know, and you wont agree with that at all.

I agree with you knowing that I won't agree.

 

 

Have you seen a lot of children come out of the womb with a fearful posture? Is an infant fearful until he is taught to be? I don't think so, I think this is the Original State we strive to return to if we are seekers.

 

They were always screaming their heads off because they had just gotten slapped on the ass.

 

 

What is the action of the Dao? It is reversion, no? Reversion to what? The void.

Yes, but not in a personified form.

 

 

Yours sounds like a type of middle way, which is a wonderful place to be. You are a good man, you have a good life. But I don't expect to see Marbles at the next meeting of the Order of the Quest.

Yeah, I like mine. I have no idea who the Order of the Quest are, where they meet or why they do so. And you know what? Yep. You are right - I don't even care. Sorry.

 

 

I don't think we'll ever agree, all of us Bums, on what constitutes a Sage. There are multitudinous levels of thinking here. Our starting points are all different.

I doubt so too. But it's fun to talk about him/her as if we knew.

 

There may be more than just those two floating on rafts. A third, for instance, may be aware of what lies beneath and not believe it to be illusion but be accepting of the potential threat and lazing by choice.

That was called "making up your own story". Hehehe. I was trying to keep to the story line.

 

I fear any man who has no fear. No fear of lossing your loved ones? No fear of hurting innocent babies? No fear of killing your mom because God telling you so?

 

A man without fear is either a robot or a pure evil.

Very narrow vision there, my friend. With awareness there is no need for fear.

 

I honestly don't now ,

Nice response. I think that if we understand our fears they won't be able to have much control over us.

 

Marbles, I'm thinking we should just get a room.

Hehehe. Nobody else would be able to sleep from us disagreeing with each other.

 

But yeah, I can pretty much agree with the other stuff you said in this post. Earlier I used (and so did you, I think) the term Primal fear. I call this instinctual. The sage, I think, will have negated this fear.

[Green Tiger]

I was kinda hoping there'd be hookers involved and a punch line.

 

 

The sage should have taken one of the drinking glasses/cups from the motel room and placed it over the spider, then slid a piece of paper (folded to make it stiffer, if necessary) or cardboard under the cup. A postcard works nicely. The spider with babies could then have been transported outside and released without incident.

 

Unless we're talking about a real phobia, of course, in which case the so-called sage would have been totally incapacitated and incapable of rational action and may have just set fire to the room and fled...

 

 

Well, if the sage is too scared to use the cup method, maybe he could hire some hookers to scoop them out of the tub. And then, you know, reward the hookers. With tea.

[Marblehead]

And then, you know, reward the hookers. With tea.

Sure. That might work.

[hydrogen]

Very narrow vision there, my friend. With awareness there is no need for fear.

 

 

Wow, you experienced awareness! Would you please tell us what happened?

 

Are you sure the awareness can survive in this physical world by itself? If so, why did it bother to manifest this physical world?

[Marblehead]

Wow, you experienced awareness! Would you please tell us what happened?

 

Are you sure the awareness can survive in this physical world by itself? If so, why did it bother to manifest this physical world?

Hehehe. I was expecting to be hit but you sure do hit hard.

 

Awareness is an individual thing. And, of course, it depends on the observed, not the observer.

 

You and I have a bit of a difference in our belief system so what works for me will likely leave holes for you. And vice versa.

 

Remember, I am a Materialist so my judgement of what awareness is is going to differ from yours.

 

If anyone is able to attain the pure condition of wu wei they will at this very same time attain awareness. Awareness isn't some mystery that no one is going to tell you about. It is simply being in full touch with your environment. Whether or not we wish to add mystical stuff to this is up to the individual. That aspect is not for me so it plays no part in my life nor in my awareness.

 

Being aware is being at peace with one's Self (inner essence) even when in an environment where one could die at any moment. (That happened with me in Vietnam.) It has happened since than as well but the experiences were never like the first one - Like the first time you made love with a woman (I mean real love, not just sex).

Edited September 17, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

If the sage was so wise , Why did he choose the hotel with spiders in it if he was phobic?

[Apech]

If the sage was so wise , Why did he choose the hotel with spiders in it if he was phobic?

 

I doubt if there was a neon sign outside saying "Arachnid Motel - rooms from 40$ a night, en suite facilities and your own spider" ...

[ChiDragon]

If the sage was so wise , Why did he choose the hotel with spiders in it if he was phobic?

 

A spider is part of Nature, why should a sage be spider-phobia.......???

[Friend]

If the sage was so wise , Why did he choose the hotel with spiders in it if he was phobic?

Also why did a wise need to go to a hotel?

[Marblehead]

Also why did a wise need to go to a hotel?

Probably couldn't find the Salvation Army Shelter.

[Friend]

Probably couldn't find the Salvation Army Shelter.

A wise man would choose the hookers place, why the hotel.

The hookers would pay him to be there.