Void experience

[Stosh]

I would say that void does not exist only in the sense that it is unmanifested or not arising from something previous;

 

That it exists in the sense of potential. Potential is the potential to exist. Our NOW is the potential NOW.

 

So yes, Wu is potential is Void; a formless function of Dao (the eternal process of awareness and arising). Just as the manifest is the form function of Dao.

 

From this both spirit and physical manifest; Invisible and visible...

Did you there Dawai, describe the (state of being aware) +( wu) manifest form = Dao

?

Because equating awareness to what we in the modern world call 'the absence of anything', that is to say a 'void'

renders Dao to be that which is manifest. ( zero plus X = X)

or

puts a divide between that which we are aware of apart from what actually exists, which we all agree on ,I believe,

and so there is no need for fancier wording.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Stosh

[Isimsiz Biri]

I would like to repeat Morihei Ueshiba's experience in 1925, posted before:

 

http://en.wikipedia....pment_of_aikido

 

The real birth of Aikido came as the result of three instances of spiritual awakening that Ueshiba experienced. The first happened in 1925, after Ueshiba had defeated a naval officer's bokken (wooden katana) attacks unarmed and without hurting the officer. Ueshiba then walked to his garden and had a spiritual awakening.

... I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.

At that moment I was enlightened: the source of budo is God's love – the spirit of loving protection for all beings ...

Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.

[Marblehead]

^^ Beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, it's amazing what we can think when we want to think it.

[Stosh]

If a person is coming to conclusions ,

it is the result of thinking ( maybe not done clearly )

whether or not they use the word ' thinking' or 'thought'

Sweetness.

 

 

verb

gerund or present participle: bantering

1. talk or exchange remarks in a good-humored teasing way.

[dawei]

Did you there Dawai, describe the (state of being aware) +( wu) manifest form = Dao

?

Because equating awareness to what we in the modern world call 'the absence of anything', that is to say a 'void'

renders Dao to be that which is manifest. ( zero plus X = X)

or

puts a divide between that which we are aware of apart from what actually exists, which we all agree on ,I believe,

and so there is no need for fancier wording.

 

I did not equate awareness with Void. I described my idea on Void as Wu as Potential, which is not the 'modern world' usage of absence of anything. As someone else said, I think it is wrong to view void that way.

 

Dao is not a thing which can manifest; it is but a process or a blueprint behind it all.

[ChiDragon]

Hello,

 

I wanted to write and get some feedback on an experience that happened just moments ago. I sat down to meditate and entered a weird state. The precursors to this state of consciousness were feelings of openness and a bit of expansion. I was connected to all of that invisible space. Before I could finish my mediation, I found myself looking into pure nothingness. Literally staring into emptiness.

Does this sound anything like your experience with the Void?

 

Thank you.

 

I believe this is the highest realm in a state of Void that a Taoist or Monk wants to be attained. If such state was attained, then one may be classified as a high priciest Taoist in Taoism or Monk in Buddhism.

 

 

PS.....

The Void mentioned in the recent posts is different from the OP.

Edited October 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

If you read the quote from Isimsiz Biri's post, there was no reference whatsovever to thinking.

 

 

But let's not go down a bantering road here.

Oh, sure, let's do. Hehehe.

 

The words "I felt ..." require thinking. "I was able to understand ..." was a result of thinking.

[Stosh]

You posted

 

Wu is potential is Void; a formless function of Dao (the eternal process of awareness and arising).

 

Then later

"I did not equate awareness with Void.

 

 

It looked like you did,, equate the word Void to

1 Wu ,

2 potential , and

3 the process of awareness and arising

 

 

 

Then you said later

I described my idea on Void as Wu as Potential, which is not the 'modern usage.. absence of anything. As someone else said, I think it is wrong to view void that way."

 

In speaking in modern english to a modern audience, and if your meaning

is NOT Void but instead, POTENTIAL ..

then everyone should stop using the word void if they mean potential,

( which I pretty much agree with you on ,, aside from the wording)

the OP looks like it is the opinion of its originator that void is a sort of experiential nothingness.

( which I dont think of so much of and I cant tell if you agree or disagree with the experiential nothingness being potential or nothingness)

noun: void;  a completely empty space.

1. "the black void of space"

   synonyms: vacuum, emptiness, nothingness, nullity, blankness, vacuity;

noun: potential; latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to

future success or usefulness.

Dao is not a thing which can manifest; it is but a process or a blueprint behind it all. "

 

Umm again , not good choice of words if you mean something else because not manifest means that the thing - in this case Dao- is not made known , and if Dao, as you say ,is the blueprint behind things

because

 

1 ) a thing manifest it is revealed betrayed exhibited present and Dao is revealed by its 'blueprint function OR (2 ) you wouldnt know anything about it ,,,,, unrevealed or not present, Dao is a big secret.

 

verb

verb: manifest; 1.

1. display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate.

   "Ray manifested signs of severe depression"

   synonyms: display, show, exhibit, demonstrate, betray, present, reveal

 

 

Edited October 1, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

The word "VOID" , in the thread, cannot be taken its meaning literally for granted. The expression of the word is beyond the comprehension of its linguistic definition. Thus we must handle its aspect in a philosophical manner by grokking.

[Stosh]

The word "VOID" , in the thread, cannot be taken its meaning literally for granted. The expression of the word is beyond the comprehension of its linguistic definition. Thus we must handle its aspect in a philosophical manner by grokking.

Grok all you wish to CD , grokking is fine ,

but words are the tool here , and you personally seem to have a really passionate desire to see the right word connections used ( when it comes to Chinese texts ) , so similarly of mind , Im thinking your angle on grokking is out of place in this circumstance. Like yourself I personally am rather vexed at those who keep trying to redefine words into some other meaning and then getting jumbled up with the unintended meaning themselves ( or confusing others)

 

 

Oh its the buddhist definition of the english word ,

or its the ancient chinese definition of the english word.

Folks really should Pick the darn word that has the correct definition !

not choose some other word ,and redefine it.

 

As in ..

"The Void mentioned in the recent posts is different from the OP."

 

 

 

"The expression of the word is beyond the comprehension of its linguistic definition."

either it is or its not , I think its not ,I also think many have no idea what they are saying, or they are borrowing someone elses terminology or they hide behind the concept of things being inexplicable rather than fess up to a situation of ignorance (wherever it begins)

and they really should consider what comprehensible people are saying,(to whatever extent that extends)

or you end up with folks thinking they can actually walk through rocks, if they just meditate long enough ,

rather than accept that rocks are solids and obstructive , but you can go around, or over ,or under, or break them. remaining true to your nature.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

The words may be used as tools, here, but only if the words that can be turned into the right tools. However, please keep in mind that not anyone can use words to go beyond the description of one's own comprehension. For example, let's look at Lao Tze. He used many words for the description of Tao beyond his comprehension but the readers did not have the ability to go beyond his comprehension(except a few of course.)


To maintain the integrity of one's thought is only within the mind of the philosopher. Perhaps only a few or none which can be comprehended by his attempt to describe it.

Edited October 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Whether it is Lao or Gautama or Einstein, at the point where the comprehension ends there is also the place where a person can no longer be of service in his description.Intellectual honesty compels one to admit where he just doesn't know or has no words to describe.Whatevever it is that yall think or believe , communication isn't assisted if someone says words that don't have the definitions which concur with the sentiment one wihes to convey.I'm sure you've heard the phrase, baffle em with bullshit..but that is not what I think is going on, I am thiking that there are those that were confused, didn't understand what was being said. They didn't grok the quale of the fizzits.And the misunderstandings perpetuate.There is an end to what is knowable, there is an end to what is describableBut that which is knowable or describable or infer-able covers an awful lot.

 

So what is it that you think Lao said but had no idea what he was talking about?My assumption is that any thing of the type is bad translation rather than nonsense in the mind of the writer.... besides , Lao may be a composite authority anyway.

[dawei]

I am not interested in attempting too many times to explain my position. I'll try one more time but don't want to get off the topic too far.

 

In speaking in modern english to a modern audience, and if your meaning

is NOT Void but instead, POTENTIAL ..

 

Void to me is always potential (ie: pregnant void-- it has the seed within).

 

So to me, there is really no such thing as absolute nothingness as there would be nothing to connect to. If one is connecting or aware of such a connection, then it cannot be absolute nothingness as their awareness of it makes it something else.

 

I can't say if this comes from any particular philosophy of thought but I tend to really only read daoist texts and that contributes to forming my understanding.

 

 

the OP looks like it is the opinion of its originator that void is a sort of experiential nothingness.

( which I dont think of so much of and I cant tell if you agree or disagree with the experiential nothingness being potential or nothingness)

I think I answered this; being aware and describing it means it could not be 'nothingness' in my opinion... but I don't want to take away from the experience as it is not my place to judge it.

The way I would explain such experiences is to point to a real-life example; That moment just before one falls asleep, one is completely unaware of anything and is at the turn-around point of awake/asleep. This is similar to the turn-around point when a ball is thrown straight up in the air; there is a moment when the ball stops and is neither ascending no descending. Motion is completely non-existent but it has potential energy.

When one gets in this stage, it is more like a blackout. There is nothing to describe. One might find life examples to use, but I call this the void experience. I have only experienced it once.... or so I think after the fact...

[Stosh]

I like that much better , now I have something to consider.

Thanks

[Marblehead]

... but it has potential energy.

Just a couple night ago I watched one of Brian Cox's "Wonders of .." and he spoke for a while on this concept.

 

And you did well speaking to "absolute nothingness".

[dawei]

I just don't like the word "void" because as I undersand the TTC, Lao Tzu does not speake of it.

 

In my understanding, void would equate to "absolute Nothingness" and this, just as with Tao, cannot be spoken of.

 

I wanted to come back to this comment. My first thought was the opening lines of DDJ25.

 

But later as I talked of using real-life examples, I find Laozi did the same with empty space; He wants us to see that true emptiness is not empty of everything; Function remains. Thus it seems to me that potential remains.

[Wizz]

When you look at the Void the Void looks back at you.

[Marblehead]

I wanted to come back to this comment. My first thought was the opening lines of DDJ25.

 

But later as I talked of using real-life examples, I find Laozi did the same with empty space; He wants us to see that true emptiness is not empty of everything; Function remains. Thus it seems to me that potential remains.

Okay. First regarding Ch 25. "Something was born out of chaos." That's not saying "out of Void" or "out of absolute nothingness". And this is consistent with science where something was born out of singularity.

 

Yes, I have no problem with the "emptiness" you speak of. The cup is empty therefore it is useful with unlimited potential. But we aren't speaking of "void" here because actually there is air in an empty cup and the air will be displaced if some other thing is put into it.

 

And I agree with the concept you put forth here.

 

When you look at the Void the Void looks back at you.

Be careful quoting Nietzsche around here. You'll likely get in trouble. Hehehe.

[dawei]

Okay. First regarding Ch 25. "Something was born out of chaos." That's not saying "out of Void" or "out of absolute nothingness". And this is consistent with science where something was born out of singularity.

 

Yes, I have no problem with the "emptiness" you speak of. The cup is empty therefore it is useful with unlimited potential. But we aren't speaking of "void" here because actually there is air in an empty cup and the air will be displaced if some other thing is put into it.

 

And I agree with the concept you put forth here.

 

I did say lineS... the second line contributes to the picture as well...

 

but I did not reference DDJ25 for void as absolute nothing but for my concept.

 

I think before you said something like Tao is like void, one cannot describe it. I am in partial agreement but they are mere words and we can use words to describe words.

 

But your point is similar to my point about 'seeing the void'...

 

"The Tao cannot be seen-if you see it, it is not the Tao," -- Youlong zhuan (Like Unto a Dragon), a book on Laozi.

[Marblehead]

Yeah Dawei,

 

We both, I think, understand the concept in the same manner but we are using different words to explain our understanding.

 

I don't recall if I actually said that Tao is like void but I have said many times that Tao cannot be defined because it existed before any things came into existence.

 

The word void just sounds so empty to me.

[dawei]

This is what you said...

 

I just don't like the word "void" because as I undersand the TTC, Lao Tzu does not speake of it.

 

In my understanding, void would equate to "absolute Nothingness" and this, just as with Tao, cannot be spoken of.

[Marblehead]

This is what you said...

Yep. I said that. And so far my understanding has not been altered.

 

But let us not make the error, just because I equate "void" with "absolute nothingness" that I am also equating "void" with "Tao". That would be a mistake because it would not consider my understanding of "singularity".

[ion]

Its not that void does not exist, as in, it is not. It has no form or dimmension, so from here, existence/4-D reality, it does not exist.

 

Existence created its non existence, but for an eternity (and still now and for ever more,) it existed. Being defined it's non being.

 

Rather then say it exists as potential, I would say it exists in a state of latentcy. Latent, it is completely not, except for it's sense of being.

 

Its pseudo self awareness is what defines it, that it notices it is nothing gives it it's character, once a character is noticed, the full spectrum comes to life, so the noticing of its charecter defines it, and creates it's opposite sameness which is yang/male. The thing that Marblehead sees as singularity.

 

The moment of males onset, is where we see the non-being nature of the original yin/female in action, it is where we see the action and form.

 

The original female is the first state of nonexistence; the true void and is like a law of nature, the nature of reality at that point is non-being, nodimmensionalness and so that is the law. Its when the male aspect arises, that the law becomes enforces with vigilance, with infinite streangth. Key word being infinite.

 

Because of the males inwardness, where it is trying to suck non-existences existence of females non-being into its state of non-being . The original female responds, and transmutates into the new female,(activity in response to males action, the activity is also an action, yet everything that has happened is selflessy activated, come into being selflessy by way of non-action; wu wei ).

 

New female responds to the inwardness with all its streangth (infinite) by pulling in the opposite direction, outward. It streatches outward for infinity. When seeing this, it looks like empty space, but it is without any dimmension except in concept.

 

About ten years ago, after having already spent a few years with the no-things, I wrote a poem to describe there nature and mind, which is one self awareness.

 

"I am a large black spider. I sit in stillness in the south-east corner of my web. My web is all that is and there is no other.

If a one were to arise within my web, at once I would engulf them and draw their energy into my regularity.

 

I am a tiny white spider. I sit in waiting atop in the north western corner of my web, and my web is all that is. There is no other. If another were to become in my web I would quickly I would quickly absorb them. Their energy would become an aspect of my normality"

 

With the poem or whatever I drew a picture with two spiders on a single web in their respective positions, oblivious to eachother.

 

What the poem describes is the two bodies of the same force, each having its own awareness, but it is the same and conflated into one non-being being.

 

A way to describe the body of void is that if a thing were to arise "within" it, void woud surround it pulling faster then light in all directions, stringing the thing out into pure energy, with infinite streangth, until that energy is disapated/ no more. Then void would immidately return to a state of latency.

 

But the male aspect is equal and non diffusable. Because they both have the foundation of infinity, neither can wear the other out, so their interplay goes on and elaborates as it does. As it elaborates other phenomenon and qualities are noticedd, whatever is noticed becomes sentient; a creatue with THE sense of being, and a self awareness. These sentient beings are the laws of nature, the elements of time and existence, any phenomenon that is, was birthed in the dual-voidness, and as bodyless and nonbeing as the voidness; They are aspects of non-existence which at this point has evolved from the original state of nothingness to this complex of pseudo activity and awareness of the activity which evolves into a pseudo-being of mind.

 

Yet all this and the mind included are non-existent. They never gain form or consciousness or take up space even in activity: it never comes into existence, yet it is the mother of existence creating itself into non-existence.

 

This fundamental dimmension of reality at one point was reality, before the existence of existence, and yet it still is, but now as nonexistence.

 

The mind and awareness of these things do exist. They exist in the realm of spirit/mind where they always have been and can thus be reached. When we see the void, it is this "place" we have reached.

 

 

Everything in existence is of the same energy fabric. This fabric has a begining, and its begining is an eternal stillness without begining or end. Its an eternity, an infinite dimmension of total stillness to the point where nothing truly does exist as law, and nothing else but nothing can exist.

 

The stillness of the fabric is original female, the stillness of Old Woman before the begining of time. The inversion of the stillness is male, and the resulting activity is new female, yet even this fabric in its activity and nuances of qualities is an eternaly negative energy, in the sense that it is a state of anti-energy.

 

An energic state so below what we call zero energy that in relation to an energic form, or any expression of energy, it exhibits the quality of having energy, because its opposition to energy causes a reaction(described above) with it.

 

The reaction, though dimmensionless and without trace, is its form.

 

edit/insert- Old samurai movies often times show an archetype of this, because this is the foundation of Tao.

 

The blind old master with a cane. Completely inconspicuous. He represents the stillness of the original female. He never agresses or advances. Keeping to peace and stillness, he wants no problems. Yet, the moment he is confronted, he responds integrating the confrontation as his own reaction.

 

He never reaches for his sword first because he abides in stillness, he gaind the energy for battle by using his opponents, so when another draws his sword, the old blind master then draws his sword yet with greater spped. If the opponent puts his sword back, the blind master puts his back faster. If the opponent aims to kill, the blind master swipes his blade across his opponents throat, before the opponent even had his sword fully unsheathed. The old blind master returns his sword to its sheath and immediately returns to a state of stillness.

 

The blind old master is a perfect example of voids "characteristics" and what Lao Tzu calls, knowing the male but dwelling with the female.

Edited October 4, 2013 by ion

[ion]

Knowing the male and dwelling with the female is also equatable to dhyana; the body in a state of total relaxation while the mind is locked in concentration. The body dwells with the female and the mind with male.

 

The expressions of Lau Tsu are universal in their truth.

 

After sitting, here is the duality and nonduality of voidness, and its being and non-being in more simpler terms.

 

Before reality ever was, and its energy was contained in the form of perfect stillness and formlessness there was absolutely nothing.

 

Nothing being, there was a sense of being, because of non-being being the utter reality. So nonbeing in physacal terms, made manifest the first sense of being an unphysacal thing, and both by thier nature were infinities, and the initial expressions of the sourceless source. The sourceless source is the spirit and principle of infinity, that alone has true and permenent existence, (even in the form of nothing), makes all things and no-things a simultaneous reality.

 

The unphysacal thing attained a non-relative self awareness. The self awareness refined its physical non-being, and thus gave it conceptual form.

 

So non-being(physical) creates being(experiental spirit of reality), and existence (spiritul aspect of non-being) creates (it's own)non-existance.

 

The conceptual form of non- being/self awareness of the origanal state of nothing), is the first "named" of and by the Great Tao, and thus revealed the un-named aspects, and so the male aspect of nothing(the niche filling of conceptual nothingness to its completion that become appearent on the knowing of the first known ) gave rise by way of the sourceles sources being; infinity completes its name and completes the reality of voidness by giving rise in 3

"physical" forms, and with the completing of nothingness by way of the principle of infinity, all the aspects of time and existing reality, the myriad creatures are givven life as they come into being by way of the arising of oposition who in turn become unified in a collective overall self awareness who percieves the things in a state of orginasitation, and thus no form gives rise to form). The stillness of the first state is the first, the being of the male aspect is the second, and the reaction of the first aspect with the second aspect.

 

So the transition from stillness to the physical non-physical states of reality dive rise to a spiritual state of reality; the platform for all this is the principle and existence of infintiy).

 

The spiritual state of non-being defines the non-physacl, which causes a reaction and re-creation. The re-creation causes other spiritual beings to arise because anything that is, even by way of being not, will share in the sense of being and become self aware. The complex of nothingnes, and its self awareness's being, becomes self aware itself.. Within its self awareness, it becomes aware of the concept of differences, and becomes aware of the concept of form.

 

When form comes into existence, it comes in the likeness of its mother; the first form and foundation of reality is empty space. This forms being causes the the state of non being to become the place of non-existence.

 

With that, so it is again that existence creates non existence. Non existence is not a quality charecter or element that can take physacal form in our reality, but we (awareness) having come from there can return there in mind experiental spirit, and then become consciously aware of its being and non being.

 

It was not until almost 6 years ago that I realized that it truly does not exist, and we are its exact reflection. Just as it can never come into physical being, a physacla being could never exist in its "realm"