Measuring emitted qi

[z00se]

We always see youtube vids where they are measuring chi, etc. Alot of them look like high tech devices but i do remember seeing at least one very simple one. Anyone have any knowhow in bio electric fields that could give some ideas into how to make a device that could measure emitted qi? Even a very simple one that measures the presence of it or not.

[Thunder_Gooch]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1353653

 

 

 

 

Detection of extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength from human hand during external Qi emission.

Seto A, Kusaka C, Nakazato S, Huang WR, Sato T, Hisamitsu T, Takeshige C.

Source

Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Showa University, Tokyo, Japan.

Abstract

It is generally accepted that more than 10(-6) gauss order magnetism was not detected in normal human condition. However, we detected 10(-3) gauss (mGauss) order bio-magnetic field strength from the palm in special persons who emitted External Qi ("Chi" or "Ki"). This detection was possible by special arranged magnetic field detection system, consisted of a pair of 2 identical coils with 80,000 turns and a high sensitivity amplifier. Each of the coils were rolled 80,000 turns accurately, and were connected in series in opposite direction, actuating as a gradiometer. We measure bio-magnetic field strength in 37 subjects with this detection system. The only 3 subjects of them exhibited strong bio-magnetic field of 2 to 4 mGauss in frequency range of 4 to 10 Hz. This magnetic field strength was greater than that of normal human bio-magnetism by 1,000 times at least. A simultaneous measurement of bio-magnetic field strength and its corresponding bio-electric current was examined in one subject. During exhibiting such strong bio-magnetism, its corresponding electric current was not detectable. Therefore, the extra-ordinary large bio-magnetic field strength can not derive from internal body current alone, hence the origin of the large bio-magnetism is still unknown. We suppose that the extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength might be originated from "Qi" energy in the oriental medicine or in the oriental traditional philosophy.

 

 

More info you might like here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31216-best-hard-evidence-for-real-abilities/

Edited September 20, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[silent thunder]

One simple way I've seen is to measure the heat emitted from the hands using thermal imagery.

[Ya Mu]

It also has an infrasonic component that has been measured.

 

The problem with attempting to measure emitted qi is that our instrumentation can only measure one specific component. Already here it has been discussed a magnetic component and an acoustics component. I have seen the magnetic standing wave component measured although the experiment didn't meet scientific publication standards.

 

I think the bottom line is that the full spectrum of qi emission cannot be measured at this point in time as it contains infrasonic, magnetic - multiple frequencies of both AND OTHER components. For instance, how does one measure the INTENT component, which is a driving (EMF-type(?) but quantum level event) force that acts as a carrier wave utilizing the Qi in healing.

I talk about INTENT being THAT through which manifestation occurs utilizing energy.

 

Hopefully in the future we will see more complex instrumentation that measures multiple components from full-spectrum acoustic to radio frequencies including elf to beyond microwave frequencies. Once the problem of measuring the full spectrum of Qi is addressed then the problem of measuring INTENT can be addressed.

[Brian]

I'm reminded of blind men describing an elephant -- "it's magnetic", "it's electrical", "it's thermal", "it's sonic"

 

As Ya Mu correctly points out (natch...), it is more than any one of those and it is really more than the sum of the parts because the parts are an incomplete breakdown of the whole. Part of the problem is that we don't really understand (intellectually or scientifically or whatever) what those missing parts are OR what the whole is.

[Ya Mu]

I'm reminded of blind men describing an elephant -- "it's magnetic", "it's electrical", "it's thermal", "it's sonic"

 

As Ya Mu correctly points out (natch...), it is more than any one of those and it is really more than the sum of the parts because the parts are an incomplete breakdown of the whole. Part of the problem is that we don't really understand (intellectually or scientifically or whatever) what those missing parts are OR what the whole is.

"Part of the problem is that we don't really understand (intellectually or scientifically or whatever) what those missing parts are OR what the whole is."

Yes.

I am hopeful that, at some point in humanity's development, we will have a better scientific understanding. Another physicist friend who has attended my workshops thinks that string theory (or a development of) will eventually be able to explain some of these things. But you are correct. We really know little of what that whole (or missing components) is. We just know to do and it happens.

[dwai]

About a decade back, I too decided to spend time researching and trying to validate Qi. I realized it doesn't matter what you do, the established scientific community (not the really forward thinkers, but those who make a livelihood out of it), will never anything tilt their "applecart" so to speak...

 

The problem is in the categorical framework (science is but one) that is being used. The same thing can mean two different things when using a different categorical framework. Healing in TCM or Ayurveda is different from healing in western medicine (even though the result might be same), because the logic used to explain the process of healing (and what causes the disease, what fixes it) are widely different. Just because TCM or Ayurveda has a different take on the disease process and healing doesn't mean they are wrong. They are just based on a different premise.

 

Most people have a hard time understanding this, because they have never been exposed to the concept of categorical frameworks or because they have never known any other.

[silent thunder]

For me, the only real component of measurement that matters, is direct experience.

That was the only thing that overcame my materialist upbringing/conditioning.

[mjjbecker]

I don't have my copy with me, (I'm in China and it is several thousand miles away), but James Oschman in his book on energy medicine writes about various different studies.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Medicine-Scientific-James-Oschman/dp/0443062617/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379727114&sr=1-1&keywords=oschman+energy+medicine

 

Have a look at the table of contents and see if you find it useful.

[h.uriahr]

I don't have my copy with me, (I'm in China and it is several thousand miles away), but James Oschman in his book on energy medicine writes about various different studies.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Medicine-Scientific-James-Oschman/dp/0443062617/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379727114&sr=1-1&keywords=oschman+energy+medicine

 

Have a look at the table of contents and see if you find it useful.

 

It's great seeing you active again.

[z00se]

Yeah it wasn't for anything serious really, not to prove or disprove or getting the entire range or anything like that just was thinking about something to play with that can actually measure any part of it. I have seen things you can plug into a pc that come with software but these things are rediculously expensive for my purposes. I was thinking more like wrapping wire around a toilet roll or something simple like that haha.

 

I will have a look through what you guys have posted thanks.

[Dagon]

I feel like my chi should be measurable, at least in the brain, I know there is visible evidence of it on my body because goosebumps always appear when I channel the chi. I haven't met anyone in real life that I could replicate experiments with,(run side by side experiments with a control group) and If there is someone like me then I would like to set up an experiment for us, or have an independent party conduct it to eliminate any confirmation/affirmation bias.

 

(P.S. if there is someone like me, then I will send you pics or a video to prove it if you do the same, and we can go forward from there. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it in public then please PM me.)

 

I mean, I've heard of a lot of people it happens to at random, but not really any that can manifest it at will.

 

I'm working with this one guy that is showing potential, but I don't know if it will manifest or not.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Dagon

[Dagon]

Edited September 21, 2013 by Dagon

[de_paradise]

Dagon, you may have to fill in a few of the pronoun reference problems and other ambiguities for us to understand what you are saying

[Ya Mu]

I didn't quite understand what Dagon was saying; although I think I understood the reference to brain waves.

 

This one is pretty easy to do with probes and software - of course the higher sensitivity equipment, like in a sleep lab, is very expensive.

 

One of my students who was a professional psychologist brought his setup over several years ago. He measured the brain waves with me projecting to a person. It showed rapid change.

And I have posted before on my one sleep lab experience where when doing standing qigong my brain waves went through the first 3 stages of sleep in side of 3 minutes.

 

But the above is measuring the effects of qi and not the qi itself. The qi component is multi-spectrum and IMO multidimensional.

[Dagon]

I feel like my chi should be measurable, at least in the brain, I know there is visible evidence of it on my body because goosebumps always appear when I channel the chi. I haven't met anyone in real life that I could replicate experiments with,(run side by side experiments with a control group) and If there is someone like me then I would like to set up an experiment for us, or have an independent party conduct it to eliminate any confirmation/affirmation bias.

 

(P.S. if there is someone like me, then I will send you pics or a video to prove it if you do the same, and we can go forward from there. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it in public then please PM me.)

 

I mean, I've heard of a lot of people it happens to at random, but not really any that can manifest it at will.

 

I'm working with this one guy that is showing potential, but I don't know if it will manifest or not.

 

I am wondering if there is anyone else who shows visible and objective signs of chi traveling through the body when they are channeling chi.

 

(I am talking about Without instruments, you can see it with the naked eye.)

Edited September 21, 2013 by Dagon

[Ish]

I am wondering if there is anyone else who shows visible and objective signs of chi traveling through the body when they are channeling chi.

 

(I am talking about Without instruments, you can see it with the naked eye.)

 

John Chang's arm pulsing comes to mind.

[Friend]

You have to see Michael Lomax aka Yamu apply

Taoist Medince then you see the vibration comes

from the travel of Qi.

[Dagon]

What do you mean vibration? Could someone say he is just shaking?

 

I'm talking about visible signs that wouldn't be able to be reproduced or faked by anyone.

I need there to be no doubt that there is something going on, even to a skeptic.

Like Wim Hof.

[Brian]

Ever had a toothache, Dagon? If not, how about a headache?

 

Can you prove it to my satisfaction?

 

EDIT: Or, can you prove to me that there is electricity flowing through the wires in your walls in a visible way without relying on instruments -- just with the naked eye?

 

There are more than a few people on the forum who have unforgotten natural abilities that some may call "supernatural" (or whatever) but most won't bother even participating in the discussion you are asking for (which has happened over and over here, BTW, if you want to go digging...) because they always start with "would you be willing to share your personal experiences" and they quickly devolve to "prove it!" and end with the self-described skeptic rejecting any evidence presented, just as you are doing in this thread (whether you realize it or not.

 

Of course, there are lots of fakers and con artists, too, and the good ones love a self-described skeptic...

 

How can you tell the difference? Personal experience.

 

Edited September 21, 2013 by Brian

[Friend]

What do you mean vibration? Could someone say he is just shaking?

 

I'm talking about visible signs that wouldn't be able to be reproduced or faked by anyone.

 

I need there to be no doubt that there is something going on, even to a skeptic.

 

Like Wim Hof.

It is a good question Dagon

and the doubts are true to consider,

as I posted below the post from Ish.

 

When it comes to signs everthying seem to be

able to be faked to the point so that a co worker told

me :"Dont trust a statistic you have not faked yourself".

 

Dr.Yan Xin as I read in the past Secrets & Benefits of Internal

Qigong Cultivation. You may like to read Chapter three

"Scientific Nature of Qigong".

 

Another Book I recommend on reading also for increase

of practise level by reflection is by Toshihiko Yayama- Qi Healing-

VI-Qi Training for Mind and Body.

I remember there was somewhere mentioned to used the SQUID

(superconducting quantum interference device)

in the Book part of "a Living Energy Field" p.13

Also something can be used is a Infrared Camera.

Heat is a side effect. But there is sometimes heat and coldness

and when you touch the hands there is nothing and such

things can not be used Infrared Camera, I just take that she

is awesome and take her service for energybody refinement,

still always suprised at her development when I see her from

time to time - for a new age type .

If one really want something then one has to go to the military

from China, USA and Russia. All of them has a special research

and tried and try to make use of "special abillties".

Try to get hands on Chinas Super Psychics - Paul Dong.

Which also mention people who are Qigong Masters like

Dr. Yan Xin and odd naturals like

General Zhang Baosheng

who said can teleport food into other people

as the dislike if food is left and the person has order more

than he can eat. Other thing is he would take coins

out and people are warned.....

The things of problematic also said by Freiherr Karl von Reichenbach

- Odisch magnetische Briefe. There are more and less

sensitive people who can measure natural things like the difference

of Lightemission of the ends of Crystals which behave like magnets.

It is also mentioned that some people just can see a thing.

(there is a book, I can not remember I just read too much on such topic

using magnets poles cause water change in taste depending on the pole

either cool and fresh or just odd and old).

What is that it is not ferromagnetism

You can be sure Dagon that

you are not only one who is interested.

When I studied Chemistry, and I ask

the Dekan some stuff he looked

a bit with "so you know that too...."

he becomes a bit more respectful

talking with me after that...

The Organic Chemistry Proffessor asked about the

August Kekule solved the form for Benzene when he

dreamed of Monkeys holding their hands.

He knows that people who hold abillity like this

would be good as talents to bring into his faculty

of research to solve problems beyond of linear thinking.

People of rank in silence know pretty much about

this matter, and at times one should be very

careful who you talk what and they do have

the scientifc background to ask more deep question

with classical science correct knowledge.

If you know sensitive stuff they might hunt a person.

The whole non privacy like Face Book etc

give the authorities excellent material to filter

out good crops from bad crops as well

of danger for authorities and possible clear thinking

people who could become rebellion leader material.

Assume me here just taking this negative possibility

in account.

Profane people should stick to their practise.

Confucius said "Every Journey starts with a single step"

Sun Tzu "Art of War" said something:

"If you plan too long, the enemies are in

front of the gates already."

Well everyone can decide how they like

I just point on some option.

 

Good one! And the Taoist Medicine treatment vibrations cause me a lot of movements and great, spontaneous laughter!

To be happy is at times better than to know and being right.

 

"Happiness brings also in Poverty luck

Unhappiness is Poverty also when lucky"

 

(Zufriedenheit bringt auch in der Armut Glück,

Unzufriedenheit ist Armut, auch im Glück.)

[Ya Mu]

"Could someone say he is just shaking?"

Yes, people could say anything. People could say goosebumps are caused by one getting anxious or cold. That arm pulses are caused by muscles.

Does this mean what people say is correct?

 

OK, back to the topic which is measurement of emitted qi. The Chinese call this wai qi liao fa when done for healing. In this reference, how could it be measured without taking into account the outcome and how is that to be measured in it's entirety except subjectively plus clinical indications. In other words, a clinician can write down something but unless it is a blood/lab parameter, a physical measured parameter, or like, then it is the patient's subjective description of how they feel.

 

Therefore I would suggest that If it is emitted qi done for healing, we cannot remove INTENT of the practitioner nor the outcome from the measurements. What a can of worms that would be; to measure the entirety.

 

Of course some things are obvious, visually and measurement of outcome. Practitioners can usually get to where they see the energy; non-practitioners usually can't. This depends on many factors. But if the practitioner does "A" and "B" outcome occurs, it really doesn't matter. I would say physicality on the part of an observer seeing a practitioner means nothing at all. Where physicality has meaning is in the health/improved abilities of the practitioner and in the healing aspect of qi projection where it means everything in terms of the client/patient.

[de_paradise]

This is kind of interesting research. http://www.tcminter.net/Artikel/Qigongresearch.html

 

 

Question for Ya Mu: Have you noticed what kinds/classifications of people tend to be more readily able to feel the emitted qi that you emit, and which ones generally feel nothing at all.

Edited September 23, 2013 by de_paradise

[Ya Mu]

...

Question for Ya Mu: Have you noticed what kinds/classifications of people tend to be more readily able to feel the emitted qi that you emit, and which ones generally feel nothing at all.

No.

It is really strange in that there is no way I know of to predict. It goes from zero to a hundred and any one particular person can be that zero or that 100.

Relevant post: http://qigongamerica.blogspot.com/2010/08/preconceived-notions-versus-tao.html

The thing is, in medical qigong, although we may prefer for the person to feel something, it really is not needed for them to feel it to get the benefit out of wai qi liao fa.

Usually sensitivity to qi increases with proper qigong practice.

 

I do prefer to work with more open minded people and prefer those who have not read multiple books and have those preconceived notions I mention above. Religious zealots are also difficult to work with. And those darn acupuncturists...

For most people the experience is never like it is described.

[mjjbecker]

I...prefer those who have not read multiple books and have those preconceived notions...

 

No surprise that traditional teachers like students to experience, rather than have them go looking for, phenomena.

 

John Chang's arm pulsing comes to mind.

 

It is muscular tension.