Gospel of Thomas

[Jonesboy]

Very nice Apech,

 

44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

[Jeff]

On 7/1/2017 at 9:35 AM, Apech said:

 

I think Jesus is presenting himself here as the fulfilment of the 'law' in this case the law being the pattern of development laid down by divine power from the first time.  So the 'tree' is this lineage of David to which he belongs - that is a lineage of kings (although he is not an earthly king) and the 'fruit' is the result - i.e. the Messiah = Christ = himself.  And he is saying that they don't understand who is he because they don't understand the relationship between him as a being and the lineage he fulfils.  That is they either cling to him as the fruit, or to the lineage/tree of Jewish tradition.  So without being able to reconcile these two natures they cannot fully accept his authority.

 

 

 

 

I think it is more than that. I think he is saying that people tend to love the process and associated ritual, but don't really notice and are not really willing to surrender to the real thing. Everyone wants everything in a nice box that they can control, not the actual fruit itself.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think it is more than that. I think he is saying that people tend to love the process and associated ritual, but don't really notice and are not really willing to surrender to the real thing. Everyone wants everything in a nice box that they can control, not the actual fruit itself.

 

I think that is true but how does it fit with "for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think that is true but how does it fit with "for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."

 

Loving the tree and hating the fruit is about loving the ritual and process, but not the truth. Loving the fruit, but hating the tree is a statement about those who love to sort of "draft" in the presence of a master/guru, but don't ever actually do the underlying work to clear the issues and fears they have. These are the types of people who kind of go insane/crazy when their guru dies. It is kind of like drug addicts who can no longer get their fix.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

Very nice Apech,

 

44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

 

Thnx Jonesboy.

 

Interesting one and not immediately obvious - not to me at any rate.  I take blasphemy to mean ‘speak badly about’ - and not necessarily to deny existence of - but certainly to deny virtue of.  The Trinity I take as:

 

Father - originating power

Son - formal appearance ( word made flesh)

Holy Spirit - the energy which moves between the Father and the Son as two poles.

 

So the Trinity is Three in One - so we experience or we exist in a unity which has threefold nature as power, form and energy (or function since energy means to do work or the capacity to do so - so is about doing something thus function).

 

I think the forgiveness is about consequence - as in karmic consequence - or to use Western concepts about Justice - that is you do something and there is a result.  So in terms of the Father any blasphemy would make no difference to the originating power and thus have no consequence for you, for the Son who is Truth your blasphemy would be empty words and similarly make not difference, BUT the Holy Spirit is a dynamic energy and your words would echo and bounce back to have consequences.

 

Hmmmm … well these are my thoughts so far

 

[LAOLONG]

.

Edited July 4, 2017 by SHINTO

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Very nice Apech,

 

44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

 

Similar to what Apech has said above, but I would describe it a little differently. The "father" is perfect clarity and there is nothing to be "hit" and hence everything is kind of automatically forgiven. The "Holy Spirit" is the motion and energy of all that exists. Kind of the flow of the Dao. Blaspheme in this case would be like going against that flow and motion, or fighting against the natural order. It is one's attachment that causes you to fight against the flow, and as Buddha taught, this leads to suffering (or as the TTC says - the Dao is ruthless...).

 

The son is one who is "one with the father", and hence has the natural clarity to always forgive all.

[Apech]

50 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Similar to what Apech has said above, but I would describe it a little differently. The "father" is perfect clarity and there is nothing to be "hit" and hence everything is kind of automatically forgiven. The "Holy Spirit" is the motion and energy of all that exists. Kind of the flow of the Dao. Blaspheme in this case would be like going against that flow and motion, or fighting against the natural order. It is one's attachment that causes you to fight against the flow, and as Buddha taught, this leads to suffering (or as the TTC says - the Dao is ruthless...).

 

The son is one who is "one with the father", and hence has the natural clarity to always forgive all.

 

Do you mean Father = perfect clarity or do you mean the Father is in itself clear.

 

I'm wondering if the word blaspheme here has a wider meaning of something like 'act against' more or less as you suggest.

 

 

[Jetsun]

3 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Very nice Apech,

 

44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

 

This is one passage which never made sense to me, not that this helps the discussion  but my feeling of the holy spirit is that it is eternal forgiveness for anything

[blue eyed snake]

I've no idea but read this with interest. Thanks Jonesboy, for reviving this thread.

 

as a bystander, maybe it is how we define father/son/holy spirit that makes this saying hard to grasp. Jetsun seems to have a different understanding of the holy spirit then  Apech and Jeff.

 

I'm not raised in Christianity but still have an interest in it. I've a hard time defining these terms, I can't really. But the holy spirit for me is this. Being light energy from heavens, therefore a form of energy ( sorry if I offend someone).

this light teaches us forgiveness, to be that light or at least try to be like it  As we can see, It's hard to bear up to this light.

 

 

I 've read a dutch guy with a website on the topic , he says something like...err... ( reading in dutch, long piece, how to translate that in short easy words etc..)

 

that when you blaspheme against the holy spirit, that it means that your heart feels that you should do/not do something. But still, even though your heart told you the right way to behave you do not behave according to what your heart says, that will not be forgiven.

 

hmm, rereading what apech and jeff said, that seems to be in the same vein.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Do you mean Father = perfect clarity or do you mean the Father is in itself clear.

 

I'm wondering if the word blaspheme here has a wider meaning of something like 'act against' more or less as you suggest.

 

 

 

It depends on the relative context of the discussion. As we will see in the coming verse 50...

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

The last part about motion and rest is what I sort of describing. The "rest" is the perfect clarity. The "motion" is the Holy Spirit aspect that I was describing. Ultimately, motion and rest are really the same thing in the father, but when you break it down to something like the trinity, they are described as separate aspects.

[Jonesboy]

Great answers.

 

45. Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit. Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Great answers.

 

45. Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit. Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."

 

Karma basically - and fairly self explanatory.  Although there is a problem explaining karma in a monotheistic context but probably not an issue in mystical Christianity.

[Jonesboy]

I think you nailed it.

 

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

[Brian]

29 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

I think you nailed it.

 

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

"... becomes a child..." is the pivotal phrase.

 

As we grow up, we accumulate filters and attachments and misconceptions and such.  As we awaken, we drop accumulated baggage and unforget how to see.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

I think you nailed it.

 

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

 

The Tao Te Ching explains this one very well. From the beginning of chapter 28...

 

Know the strength of man, 
But keep a woman's care! 
Be the stream of the universe! 
Being the stream of the universe, 
Ever true and unswerving, 
Become as a little child once more. 
Know the white, 
But keep the black! 
Be an example to the world! 
Being an example to the world, 
Ever true and unwavering, 
Return to the infinite. 
...

[Jetsun]

2 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

I think you nailed it.

 

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

 

Does this suggest some kind of evolution in enlightenment? Like later generations after John have a potential to go further or deeper 

[Jeff]

23 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

Does this suggest some kind of evolution in enlightenment? Like later generations after John have a potential to go further or deeper 

 

Not an evolution at that point, more he is saying the John is not "realized" or yet a "son of God". John is the most powerful of teachers (human masters), residing at the soul, but not yet begun the higher differentiation. In Taoist terms you could say he was a sage, but not yet a realized immortal.

[Taoist Texts]

On 7/3/2017 at 7:32 PM, Apech said:

Father - originating power

Son - formal appearance ( word made flesh)

Holy Spirit - the energy which moves between the Father and the Son as two poles.

Yes, that's how it is in the received Christianity dogma, but in the original Christianity the holy spirit was the originator of father and son. Hence the refutation of the 2 lower layers is ok but not that of the Source.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, that's how it is in the received Christianity dogma, but in the original Christianity the holy spirit was the originator of father and son. Hence the refutation of the 2 lower layers is ok but not that of the Source.

 

Nice one TT!

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

I think you nailed it.

 

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

 

well, this adds nothing to the thread, just what pops up with me in my own words

 

we're all born of woman. Some of us then let the small self die and so become 'born again'.( And now I see that is another way to understand the 'become a child again' never thought of that before.)

 

On the other hand, it does seem to implicate that John, who was a spiritual great man, the greates since adam. So the greatest..

was not able to get to this state. So that Jesus is saying something like: from now on this path will be available to mankind.

 

But i sort of don't like that idea....

[Jeff]

38 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, that's how it is in the received Christianity dogma, but in the original Christianity the holy spirit was the originator of father and son. Hence the refutation of the 2 lower layers is ok but not that of the Source.

 

Where do you get that from? I am not familar with such a concept in the teachings of Jesus.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Jeff

[blue eyed snake]

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, that's how it is in the received Christianity dogma, but in the original Christianity the holy spirit was the originator of father and son. Hence the refutation of the 2 lower layers is ok but not that of the Source.

 

nice, I do not know anything about Christianity, whether modern or ancient.. so I learn

[Jetsun]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Not an evolution at that point, more he is saying the John is not "realized" or yet a "son of God". John is the most powerful of teachers (human masters), residing at the soul, but not yet begun the higher differentiation. In Taoist terms you could say he was a sage, but not yet a realized immortal.

 

So if its saying that John is the highest being at that point but isn't an immortal, then it means Jesus didn't perceive the Buddha or early Taoists as high as John or as immortals, which is pretty controversial. 

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

So if its saying that John is the highest being at that point but isn't an immortal, then it means Jesus didn't perceive the Buddha or early Taoists as high as John or as immortals, which is pretty controversial. 

 

I don't think he is making any such statement. The context and meaning of the statement "born of a woman" is significant as Jesus talks about two bodies, the earthly human and the one that is "born of the Holy Spirit". He is differentiating between the two. Here is a descriptor for you from the gospels...

 

 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 

1 Corinthians 15:42-49

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lordfrom heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bearthe image of the heavenly Man.