Gospel of Thomas

[Jetsun]

38 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I don't think he is making any such statement. The context and meaning of the statement "born of a woman" is significant as Jesus talks about two bodies, the earthly human and the one that is "born of the Holy Spirit". He is differentiating between the two. Here is a descriptor for you from the gospels...

 

 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 

1 Corinthians 15:42-49

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lordfrom heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bearthe image of the heavenly Man.

 

 

 

 

Ok so what is the significance of discriminating between the two?

Edited July 4, 2017 by Jetsun

[Apech]

What does 'that his eyes should not be averted' mean do you think?  Not understanding this phrase is giving me problems understanding.

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

Ok so what is the significance of discriminating between the two? Who other than Jesus is considered as not being born of woman? It's sounds like Jesus is talking of all men other than himself when he talks of those born to women, including the Buddha etc 

 

Jesus was also physically born of a woman. What we are talking about is moving beyond the earthly body. The "child" being described is knowing you are not really of the physical body (as such an attachment is death).

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

What does 'that his eyes should not be averted' mean do you think?  Not understanding this phrase is giving me problems understanding.

 

Meaning that he is not so greatly beyond you that you can't look into his eyes (as an equal). In those times, lower status level people were not allowed to look directly at the nobility/lords.

[Jetsun]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Jesus was also physically born of a woman. What we are talking about is moving beyond the earthly body. The "child" being described is knowing you are not really of the physical body (as such an attachment is death).

 

Ok I get it now, thanks 

[blue eyed snake]

 

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

 

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Jesus was also physically born of a woman. What we are talking about is moving beyond the earthly body. The "child" being described is knowing you are not really of the physical body (as such an attachment is death).

 

 

if you don't mind,

I do get that, but still Jetsun  said that

 

1 hour ago, Jetsun said:

So if its saying that John is the highest being at that point but isn't an immortal, then it means Jesus didn't perceive the Buddha or early Taoists as high as John or as immortals, which is pretty controversial. 

 

which wasn't answered  yet

 

I've been thinking about that, Jesus was speaking for his folk, so for Jews, I suppose we need to get that Jesus was not talking about strange folk from far away. But even then, he seems to say that people before his coming, ( in his tribe) were not able to reach that state of childhood.

 

The god of the old testament seems to be a harsh god, an avenging god. Where Jesus preaches forgiveness and compassion, that, imho,  being a necessary condition for becoming child again. So in that way I can sort of understand it. But still, he seems to say that he uniquely makes available the way to nondualism, and I still don't like that 

 

[Apech]

56 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Meaning that he is not so greatly beyond you that you can't look into his eyes (as an equal). In those times, lower status level people were not allowed to look directly at the nobility/lords.

 

 

Ok so maybe he was saying that John the Baptist was the example of the developed human being - but enlightenment was beyond that into realising the kingdom of heaven within.  

 

Also he was talking to a target audience who knew of John the Baptist but would not have known of Buddha and Lao Tse.

[Jeff]

50 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

46. Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted. But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the (Father's) kingdom and will become greater than John."

 

if you don't mind,

I do get that, but still Jetsun  said that

 

which wasn't answered  yet

 

I've been thinking about that, Jesus was speaking for his folk, so for Jews, I suppose we need to get that Jesus was not talking about strange folk from far away. But even then, he seems to say that people before his coming, ( in his tribe) were not able to reach that state of childhood.

 

The god of the old testament seems to be a harsh god, an avenging god. Where Jesus preaches forgiveness and compassion, that, imho,  being a necessary condition for becoming child again. So in that way I can sort of understand it. But still, he seems to say that he uniquely makes available the way to nondualism, and I still don't like that 

 

I guess I don't see the issue. In the verse, he states pretty clearly "whoever among you becomes a child will recognize", implying that it is open to any who realize what is inherently within you. As Jesus clearly states...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

Also, I would say that Jesus clearly teaches something very different than what is found in the Old Testament. I much deeper level of realization, bringing the truth and not simply the "old laws".

 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

57 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Ok so maybe he was saying that John the Baptist was the example of the developed human being - but enlightenment was beyond that into realising the kingdom of heaven within.  

 

Also he was talking to a target audience who knew of John the Baptist but would not have known of Buddha and Lao Tse.

 

Yes, John the Baptist is an example of one who has all seven chakras open (and hence connected to the divine), but still "earthly". He had not yet fully realized the "kingdom of God" found within.

[Jonesboy]

Good stuff!

 

Moving on if that is ok,

 

47. Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows. And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other. Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."

[Jeff]

16 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Good stuff!

 

Moving on if that is ok,

 

47. Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows. And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other. Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."

 

The "new" and greater realization has come. Forget the old stuff and how the Pharisees explain it. The teachings of Jesus are not the same as the Old Testament...

[Apech]

[Apech]

PS. I have no idea what that GoT quote means so I posted a dual-horse meme instead.

[Bindi]

Just regarding the horses, the related verse from Matthew 6:24 states the two masters are God and mammon which sounds pretty sensible to me:

 

"No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

 

 

 

 

[Jonesboy]

Moving on,

 

48. Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Moving on,

 

48. Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

 

If you first realize and then balance the male and female energy sides, lots of fun stuff happens... 

[Apech]

You'll feel the earth move.

[cold]

20 hours ago, Apech said:

You'll feel the earth move.

under your feet

and feel the sky come tumbling down

Carol King sums it up well

[Brian]

16 minutes ago, cold said:

under your feet

and feel the sky come tumbling down

Carol King sums it up well

I thought the same thing!

[Kar3n]

5 minutes ago, Brian said:

I thought the same thing!

Yes, I did too! Was a tune cootie for a long time yesterday.

[Jonesboy]

Moving on,

 

49. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

[Cheshire Cat]

n.1 exercise in thinking outside of the box

 

On 11/7/2017 at 10:25 PM, Jonesboy said:

Moving on,

 

49. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

 

Context ---> Jesus with a warband of rebellious brigands is setting up a plan to attack the romans;

"those who are alone and chosen" ---> celibate warriors dedicated to suicidal warfare;

kingdom ---> the core group of rebels guided by Jesus;

 

Jesus said, "Congratulations to wannabe kamikaze terrorists, for you will find our core group. For you were with us before, and you will return to us again."

[Jeff]

On 7/11/2017 at 2:25 PM, Jonesboy said:

Moving on,

 

49. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

 

To me, Verse 49 goes well with verse 48. Those who are "alone" are those who have realized...

 

48. Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

 

...and integrated the two energy sides. Also, the word "chosen" is important because the kingdom is not something that you can reach by works. All you can do is make yourself ready to accept the grace when it comes. Finally, the last part is about how it is not some separate place or something new, but more about realizing and returning.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

To me, Verse 49 goes well with verse 48. Those who are "alone" are those who have realized...

 

48. Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

 

...and integrated the two energy sides. Also, the word "chosen" is important because the kingdom is not something that you can reach by works. All you can do is make yourself ready to accept the grace when it comes. Finally, the last part is about how it is not some separate place or something new, but more about realizing and returning.

 

Perhaps "returning" to the "same" place on a higher winding of an endless spiral. Otherwise what has been gained? We could have stayed there in the first place (fun pun ).

Edited September 2, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Perhaps "returning" to the "same" place on a higher winding of an endless spiral. Otherwise what has been gained? We could have stayed there in the first place (fun pun ).

 

The next verse touches on that point...

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"