Gospel of Thomas

[Michael Sternbach]

We can never swim in the same river twice.

 

Though in this case, it may be us who have changed, rather than the river.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Jeff]

Moving on to verse 50. It is one of my favorite, and to me very profound. Any thoughts?

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

[Cheshire Cat]

35 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Moving on to verse 50. It is one of my favorite, and to me very profound. Any thoughts?

 

The Poimandres

 

The first treaty (logos) of the Corpus Hermeticum is called Poimandres, this
title is commonly translated as “man's shepherd” and indicates the typical
figure of the God who intervenes in daily life with the aim of directing,
guiding, protecting the flock who, without him, feels lost and at evil's mercy.
The Poimandres thus bears the figure of the savior that the people are
awaiting: he is the Nous, the Supreme Mind, the Father who spontaneously
decides to reveal himself to the people through his intermediary. So why
should God feel this need to intervene in human history and stand before His
creatures? Because He loves man (Anthropos, the primordial man, the Adam of
the Bible, made with His image and resemblance). This is the man who is
guilty of a crime that makes him imperfect, the one who has become mortal in
his body. This man is offered the opportunity of a new and definitive salvation.
He is to obey his shepherd's “word” and so walk the way that will reunite him
with his divine Father.
At this point, it is very interesting to have a look to the description that
Poimandres makes of this God revealing to man.

 

In paragraph 5 we read the following statements:

• Tò phòs ekèino, egò Noùs o sòs theòs...(The light that I Mind your god... that is the light, I that am the Mind am your god)
• ò de ek Noòs photeinòs Logos uiòs theù...(the from luminous Intellect Logos son of god... the one [am I] from [the] luminous intellect oLogos, son of god)
• tò en soi blèpon kai akùon, logos kurìu, ò de Noùs patèr theòs... (whatin you observing and seeing, Logos of God, the instead Mind father god...what in you sees and observes is instead the Mind of god father, Logos of God)

In § 12 we read:

• ò dè pànton patèr o Noùs, on zoè kai phòs... (the of all [things] father the Mind being life and light... Mind being life and light [is] the father of all [things]

In § 21:

• ek photòs kai zoès sunèsteken ò patèr tòn òlon... (of light and of life is made the father of all [things]... the father of all [things] is made of light and of life)

In § 22 God says of himself:

• paraghìnomai egò ò Noùs tòis osìois kài agathòis kài katharòis kài eleèmosi, tòis eusebùsi... (am close to I [care for], the Intellect, the saints, the good, the pure ones, the merciful, the pious... I, the Intellect, am close to [care for] the saints, the good, the pure, the merciful, the pious)
• e parousìa moù ghìnetai boètheia... (the presence mine is support... my presence is support)
• ùk eàso tà prospìptonta energhèmata tù sòmatos ektelestènai... ( will not let the falling forces of the body reach the end... I will not let the falling forces of the body reach the end)

In § 28 we find the call to conversion, also present in the Gospels, and it is
interesting to note how this concept is a new idea to a world that did not
conceive the possibility of achieving immortality through repentance:

• metanoèsate oi sunodeèusantes te plàne... (convert the [you] walking with [in] the error... you walking in error [must] convert)

Paragraph 31 introduces the prayer addressed to God where, among other
invocations, one also reads:

• àghios ò theòs kai patèr ton òlon...(Holy the God and Father of all [things ]... Holy [is] the God and Father of all [things])
• ù e bulè telèitai apò ton idìon dunàmeon...(his will is done [is accomplished] by his powers... his will is done [accomplished] by his powers)

Finally, § 32 defines the relationship between God and man, and clarifies the
final purpose of this revelation to mankind:

• kai tes kàritos tàutes photìso tùs en àgnoia tù ghènus, mù adelphùs, uiùs dè sù... (and of grace this will enlighten men of ignorance, my brothers, sons of you... and of this grace will enlighten men of ignorance, my brothers, your sons).

 

[The book that will forever change our ideas about the Bible, Mauro Biglino]

Edited September 4, 2017 by Cheshire Cat

[Jeff]

Hi Cheshire Cat,

 

What exactly are you attempting to describe above? Your post references many different paragraphs, do they have something to do with the GOT in general, or anything to do with verse 50?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Moving on to verse 50. It is one of my favorite, and to me very profound. Any thoughts?

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

Thanks Jeff,

 

Just thought I'd put it in green so it stands out

 

The 'motion and rest' is interesting and I take this to mean the eternal motion within the continuum of power (the Father) but I would be interested to learn what others think.

[dawei]

On 7/1/2017 at 10:11 AM, Jonesboy said:

Moving on,

 

43. His disciples said to him, "Who are you to say these things to us?" "You don't understand who I am from what I say to you. Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."

 

On 7/3/2017 at 10:21 AM, Jonesboy said:

Very nice Apech,

 

44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

 

sorry to go backwards but I felt something similar or connective between these and wanted to see if someone sees something as well.   Not exactly sure what it is, but something like this:

 

43 compares a Tree vs Fruit in a love vs hate scenario

44 compares The Father/Son vs HS in forgiven vs not forgiven scenario [based on blasphemy]

 

In order to keep the parallel, it seems The Father and Son need to be viewed as together and this gives me a different perspective than historical theology of a trinity.  

 

It seems better to view The Father/Son against the HS as that seems to be more like the Tree vs Fruit.

 

I just realized the 43 is the disciples talking and 44 is Jesus...   

[dawei]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks Jeff,

 

Just thought I'd put it in green so it stands out

 

The 'motion and rest' is interesting and I take this to mean the eternal motion within the continuum of power (the Father) but I would be interested to learn what others think.

 

I see the parallel in:

 

Heart Sutra:  Form = Void

 

Applied in the GoT... and even using my previous post thought:

 

Motion = HS (akin to energy or light)

Rest = Father/Son  (primordial rest provided by the father and clarity provided by the son to see past the idea that they are two different things; they are the same.)

 

 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks Jeff,

 

Just thought I'd put it in green so it stands out

 

The 'motion and rest' is interesting and I take this to mean the eternal motion within the continuum of power (the Father) but I would be interested to learn what others think.

 

I think Dawei raises some good points drawing his comparison. But, for the context of motion and rest, it is important to understand the earlier part...

 

"We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image."

 

Understand that we come from the light, that comes into being by itself and then established (or stabilized) itself. So since, Dawei already used the Buddhist reference, let's now use the Daoist. And instead say...

 

"We have come from the One, from the place (Dao) where the One cam into being by itself and then established (itself), and (we likewise) appeared in their image"

 

And then, it goes to basically, how can you prove that? Because we know that is the place where motion = rest and is also both.

 

Motion is energy/light. Rest is perfect void. So we all came into being from the place where void=energy/light, and we call that place the Holy Father.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

 

sorry to go backwards but I felt something similar or connective between these and wanted to see if someone sees something as well.   Not exactly sure what it is, but something like this:

 

43 compares a Tree vs Fruit in a love vs hate scenario

44 compares The Father/Son vs HS in forgiven vs not forgiven scenario [based on blasphemy]

 

In order to keep the parallel, it seems The Father and Son need to be viewed as together and this gives me a different perspective than historical theology of a trinity.  

 

It seems better to view The Father/Son against the HS as that seems to be more like the Tree vs Fruit.

 

I just realized the 43 is the disciples talking and 44 is Jesus...   

 

It should be remembered that the concept of the Holy Trinity came much later than the gospel of Thomas (by a couple hundred years). I don't quite see how the father/son are against the Holy Spirit. Could you explain how you get that more?

 

To me, the Holy Spirit is more like the motion aspect (or manifest) aspect of the father. The not forgiving part is more like when the TTC says that the Dao is ruthless. Try to go against the natural order and you get stomped on.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

Hi Cheshire Cat,

 

What exactly are you attempting to describe above? Your post references many different paragraphs, do they have something to do with the GOT in general, or anything to do with verse 50?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

 

I'm pointing out that GOT, the gospel of John and similar texts emerged from a gnostic ground: it was "cool" to tell things like "I come from the light",etc... Therefore, instead of trying to explain abstruse wordings (that most probably weren't clear to those who written them in the first place) with totally alien philosophies (eastern ones), I think that it's much better to look into the few gnostic sources that we actually have.

 

And -most importantly- do not assume that the gnostic disciples had some real understanding about reality or the spiritual worlds just because they used to speak like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

44 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I'm pointing out that GOT, the gospel of John and similar texts emerged from a gnostic ground: it was "cool" to tell things like "I come from the light",etc... Therefore, instead of trying to explain abstruse wordings (that most probably weren't clear to those who written them in the first place) with totally alien philosophies (eastern ones), I think that it's much better to look into the few gnostic sources that we actually have.

 

And -most importantly- do not assume that the gnostic disciples had some real understanding about reality or the spiritual worlds just because they used to speak like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. I gather much of this early gnostic thought came from Greek philosophy as well, maybe even more than from Eastern thought. For example google "motion and rest Greek philosophy" to trace this one idea.

[Kar3n]

****MOD TEAM NOTICE****

 

This topic was developed to discuss what the Gospel of Thomas

means to members, verse by verse. If you would like to have a discussion about its origins

or authenticity, you may do so by starting in another topic or reviving an old one.

 

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I'm pointing out that GOT, the gospel of John and similar texts emerged from a gnostic ground: it was "cool" to tell things like "I come from the light",etc... Therefore, instead of trying to explain abstruse wordings (that most probably weren't clear to those who written them in the first place) with totally alien philosophies (eastern ones), I think that it's much better to look into the few gnostic sources that we actually have.

 

And -most importantly- do not assume that the gnostic disciples had some real understanding about reality or the spiritual worlds just because they used to speak like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Agreed. I gather much of this early gnostic thought came from Greek philosophy as well, maybe even more than from Eastern thought. For example google "motion and rest Greek philosophy" to trace this one idea.

 

*************************

 

[Bindi]

I thought examining what might be meant by motion and rest in Greek philosophy might shed light on its meaning in GoT, did you get complaints about my post?

[Kar3n]

20 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I thought examining what might be meant by motion and rest in Greek philosophy might shed light on its meaning in GoT, did you get complaints about my post?

 

On 10/31/2013 at 5:18 AM, Apech said:

***** Steward Missive ****

 

I am trying to keep this thread for discussing the Gospel of Thomas verse by verse. I appreciate that there a views regarding the provenance and authenticity of this and other apocryphal works. But what we are doing is taking it as a text and discussing it verse by verse. Compare this to discussing the content of the TTC say, without debating whether there was such a person as Lao Tzu and when and where he lived and so on. Feel free to start another thread on the Bible and its content and excluded texts - but can we keep this for discussion of the latest verse please.

 

*** Apech as Steward of Hermetic Subforum ***

 

[blue eyed snake]

18 hours ago, Apech said:

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

to me it means something like err..

 

motion is that everything moves,the whole universe is in constant motion and as a human you should move with it. That you're not calcified in ideas, that you ' go with the flow' something like that.

 

The rest is the stillness within that you can find

[Bindi]

40 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

 

 

 

We can talk about pissing in rivers without getting mod team notices, just can't refer to Greek philosophical perspectives that might be extremely relevant and on topic, right?

[Kar3n]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

We can talk about pissing in rivers without getting mod team notices, just can't refer to Greek philosophical perspectives that might be extremely relevant and on topic, right?

It is simple, stay on topic or make a new one.  This is not a debate.

[Bindi]

How is a reference to motion and rest not on topic exactly?

[Kar3n]

1 minute ago, Bindi said:

How is a reference to motion and rest not on topic exactly?

If you had one iota of interest in the topic at hand you would have already begun discussing motion and rest as it relates to the quoted verse instead of derailing this thread further.

 

If you'd like to discuss Greek philosophy and the GOT of Thomas in depth, that is a topic for another thread.

 

 

[Bindi]

I thought Sean's approach was to allow all opinions, as long as they were on topic, but if you say only shallow opinion is allowed, then that's that. GoT it. 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

to me it means something like err..

 

motion is that everything moves,the whole universe is in constant motion and as a human you should move with it. That you're not calcified in ideas, that you ' go with the flow' something like that.

 

The rest is the stillness within that you can find

 

I've been thinking some more about it,

the rest, the quiescence, is needed to come into that state of moving along with that what is. I suppose that is what it means to me.

[Jeff]

Maybe we should move on. Any thoughts with this verse?

 

51. His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Maybe we should move on. Any thoughts with this verse?

 

51. His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

 

Green Jeff

 

... so is the 'new world' = kingdom of heaven?  in which case it is 'within' and yet you don't yet know it?

 

 

[Jonesboy]

29 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Maybe we should move on. Any thoughts with this verse?

 

51. His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

 

I wonder if this is in reference to the new covenant that Jesus brought. In Buddhist terms this to me is a turning of the wheel.

 

With regard to the "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it." reminds me of GOT verse 3:

 

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Green Jeff

 

... so is the 'new world' = kingdom of heaven?  in which case it is 'within' and yet you don't yet know it?

 

 

 

Working on phone, so thanks for the green.

 

To me, the new world is different from the kingdom of heaven.  As you can see from these words in verse 27, the world (or new world) are treated differently...

 

"If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the (Father's) kingdom..."

 

The new world is much more like as John describes in revelations 21.

 

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.