Gospel of Thomas

[Jonesboy]

So then more a statement about depth and not moving beyond time or else you would know it is already here. So kinda saying your still trapped in local mind.

[Jeff]

28 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

So then more a statement about depth and not moving beyond time or else you would know it is already here. So kinda saying your still trapped in local mind.

 

To me it more saying that the basis for the new world is now laid down (or in process), but has not yet been "realized".

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Green Jeff

 

... so is the 'new world' = kingdom of heaven?  in which case it is 'within' and yet you don't yet know it?

 

 

 

that's what  thought too, even though maybe that kingdom is not only within but also without.

 

the dead/

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Maybe we should move on. Any thoughts with this verse?

 

51. His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

 

when will the rest for the dead take place,

I suppose, in the same vein, when we have shed the identification with thee ego.

 

the dead as the self/ ego , ego laid to rest

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

that's what  thought too, even though maybe that kingdom is not only within but also without.

 

the dead/

 

when will the rest for the dead take place,

I suppose, in the same vein, when we have shed the identification with thee ego.

 

the dead as the self/ ego , ego laid to rest

 

The concept of how ego/self leads to mortal death is more than just an issue, as the gospel Romans 6 shows below...

 

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

One must move beyond the body of flesh and find that "higher spirit".  But, this is more about finding the kingdom of God, than the "new world".

[Jeff]

Moving on to Verse 52...

 

52. His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you." He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."

[Lost in Translation]

 

On 1/29/2014 at 6:34 AM, Apech said:

Quote

29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit,

it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the

body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this

great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

 

O. M. G.

 

I know this was from 2014 and I'm waaaaay late to the party, but OMG!

 

[Jonesboy]

On 9/14/2017 at 1:02 PM, Jeff said:

Moving on to Verse 52...

 

52. His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you." He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."

 

Stop worrying about what is written in the past or what you think I am and pay attention to what I am teaching you.

 

Kinda like that is old covenant stuff I am teaching new stuff.

[silent thunder]

it's not about my finger

when it's pointing to the moon

[rene]

18 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

it's not about my finger

when it's pointing to the moon

 

Warrants repeating, boldly.

[Jeff]

Continuing on with the next verse...

 

53. His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision useful or not?" He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."

 

Any thoughts?

[Jonesboy]

 

 

Basically that is nonsense and has nothing to do with finding heaven or the light within.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Jonesboy

[Jetsun]

Chop the head off 

[Bindi]

To circumcise or not was one of the debates that arose as Christianity was being taken from its Jewish origin to the gentiles, mid 1st century CE. It was decided that it was unnecessary to follow Mosaic law (in the Apostolic decree) in order to ease the burden on gentile converts, but like most contentious issues, the debate continued between Paul and James the Just (from the Jerusalem church). Clearly Paul's view was victorious. 

 

This suggests this verse was written when there was still some uncertainty, and the writer wanted to strengthen his anti-circumcision stance with a 'Jesus said' proof. 

[Apech]

It's a bit of a sore point. 

[Jeff]

46 minutes ago, Bindi said:

To circumcise or not was one of the debates that arose as Christianity was being taken from its Jewish origin to the gentiles, mid 1st century CE. It was decided that it was unnecessary to follow Mosaic law (in the Apostolic decree) in order to ease the burden on gentile converts, but like most contentious issues, the debate continued between Paul and James the Just (from the Jerusalem church). Clearly Paul's view was victorious. 

 

This suggests this verse was written when there was still some uncertainty, and the writer wanted to strengthen his anti-circumcision stance with a 'Jesus said' proof. 

 

Interesting theory. Thank you for sharing. 

 

For me, it is also a broader statement. Sort of along the lines of describing how a bunch of the old rules from the Old Testament were not really important with regards to realizing the spirit. Sort of like saying there is a new truth and deeper understanding.

[Fa Xin]

(54) Jesus said, “Blessed are the poor; for yours is the kingdom of heaven”

 

on the surface I can see this one is about seeing thru worldly possessions, pursuits and pitfalls...

maybe more ?

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

(54) Jesus said, “Blessed are the poor; for yours is the kingdom of heaven”

 

on the surface I can see this one is about seeing thru worldly possessions, pursuits and pitfalls...

maybe more ?

 

I would agree. Especially if you think of poor in the context of not having attachments. For me, the verse would read/translate as...

 

Jesus said, “Blessed are the ones without attachments, for yours is the kingdom of heaven”.

[Cheshire Cat]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

(54) Jesus said, “Blessed are the poor; for yours is the kingdom of heaven”

 

on the surface I can see this one is about seeing thru worldly possessions, pursuits and pitfalls...

maybe more ?

 

What if "poor" was actually referred to Jesus' apostles? Think about those people who abandoned their jobs to follow the Christ in his mission.

 

It would not surprise to discover that the Ebionites (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι Ebionaioi, derived from Hebrew אביונים ebyonim, ebionim, meaning "the poor" or "poor ones") could be truly the descendants of Jesus' group.

 

Pretend for a second that when Jesus talks about the "poor" or the "poor ones", he's just talking about himself and his group... and then read the gospels.

 

  ^"While Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper,a woman approached him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume. She poured it on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw it, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This might have been sold for a great deal and given to the poor.” (Matthew 26:6-9)

 

" While he was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper,^[a] as he was reclining at the table, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured it on his head. ⁴ But some were expressing indignation to one another: “Why has this perfume been wasted? ⁵ For this perfume might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii^[b] and given to the poor.” And they began to scold her. " (Mark 14)

 

Why such strong reactions?

 

And even more, you can read Jesus that confirms that the apostles were the "poor ones":

"Then looking up at his disciples, he said: Blessed are you who are poor, because the kingdom of God is yours.^"

 

Now, think for a minute about the possibility that Jesus could be an historically accurate jewish Messiah who thought that his mission was to turn Israel into the real Kingdom of God, defeating the romans and establishing an everlasting peace. Precisely the mission that all of the self-proclaimed Messiahs had and that the prophets foretold.

 

Think about the disciples as "his army", think about his sayings:

 

"Don’t assume that I came to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."Matthew 10:34

 

Did you know that Zealots were hated in the jewish community because they used to kill in their own families those who had a different opinion?

 

"Then he said to them, “But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one. " (Luke 22)

 

In this light, Blessed are the poor; for yours is the kingdom of heaven sounds very much like Proletariat of the world, unite! (Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь!)

 

Food for thoughts.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Cheshire Cat

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

What if "poor" was actually referred to Jesus' apostles? Think about those people who abandoned their jobs to follow the Christ in his mission.

 

It would not surprise to discover that the Ebionites (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι Ebionaioi, derived from Hebrew אביונים ebyonim, ebionim, meaning "the poor" or "poor ones") could be truly the descendants of Jesus' group.

 

Pretend for a second that when Jesus talks about the "poor" or the "poor ones", he's just talking about himself and his group... and then read the gospels.

 

  ^"While Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper,a woman approached him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume. She poured it on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw it, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This might have been sold for a great deal and given to the poor.” (Matthew 26:6-9)

 

" While he was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper,^[a] as he was reclining at the table, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured it on his head. ⁴ But some were expressing indignation to one another: “Why has this perfume been wasted? ⁵ For this perfume might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii^[b] and given to the poor.” And they began to scold her. " (Mark 14)

 

I think your theory has many problems if you actually look at what Jesus says and the fuller context of your quotes...

 

Matthew 26:8-13

8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? 9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. 12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial. 13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

 

He is clearly stating that he going to die soon (did it for my burial) and it is about preaching the gospel.

 

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Why such strong reactions?

 

And even more, you can read Jesus that confirms that the apostles were the "poor ones":

"Then looking up at his disciples, he said: Blessed are you who are poor, because the kingdom of God is yours.^"

 

Now, think for a minute about the possibility that Jesus could be an historically accurate jewish Messiah who thought that his mission was to turn Israel into the real Kingdom of God, defeating the romans and establishing an everlasting peace. Precisely the mission that all of the self-proclaimed Messiahs had and that the prophets foretold.

 

Again, Jesus clearly states that the Kingdom of God is not some worldly thing, but a spiritual thing found within oneself...

 

Luke 17:20-21

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

 

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Think about the disciples as "his army", think about his sayings:

 

"Don’t assume that I came to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."Matthew 10:34

 

Did you know that Zealots were hated in the jewish community because they used to kill in their own families those who had a different opinion?

 

"Then he said to them, “But now, whoever has a money-bag should take it, and also a traveling bag. And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one. " (Luke 22)

 

 

Once again in context, lets see how Jesus actually responds and what he does in Luke 22...

 

Luke 22:49-51

49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? 50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear. 51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

 

Rather than incite any worldly violence, Jesus heals the ear of his oppressor.

 

3 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

In this light, Blessed are the poor; for yours is the kingdom of heaven sounds very much like Proletariat of the world, unite! (Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь!)

 

Food for thoughts.

 

 

Here is some food for thought in the words of Jesus, describing what he is doing (and it has nothing to do with any earthly zealot war...

 

John 14:10-17

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

As stated, Jesus brings the "spirit of truth", that the world does not see or know, but can be found within you.  

[Cheshire Cat]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I think your theory has many problems if you actually look at what Jesus says and the fuller context of your quotes...

 

You could either assume that the gospels may contain records of historical events, heavily coloured with mythology here and there ...

 

...or you could assume that the gospels are the accurate story of Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, that -for us men and for our salvation- came down from heaven and was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

 

With the first approach, you know that those things which doesn't fit the canonical theology (for example " And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one ") are clues of a more down-to-earth and realistic story. The real events behind the myth.

 

With the second approach you know that this guy talked about a spiritual truth that you already possess because you studied some chinese/indian philosophies and that you can interpret his spiritual sayings with the light of your knowledge. If you're affiliated with Iskon, you believe that Krishna is the "heavenly father" or if you studied some daoist alchemy, you may think that the kingdom of God was some sort of dantien or niwan palace. If you studied buddhism, you're 100% sure that Jesus was talking about Pristine Awareness or something along that line.

 

I wonder which one is the theory with more problems...

 

"The spirit of Truth is within you, but he's wrong most of the time"

 

 

 

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

You could either assume that the gospels may contain records of historical events, heavily coloured with mythology here and there ...

 

...or you could assume that the gospels are the accurate story of Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, that -for us men and for our salvation- came down from heaven and was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

 

With the first approach, you know that those things which doesn't fit the canonical theology (for example " And whoever doesn’t have a sword should sell his robe and buy one ") are clues of a more down-to-earth and realistic story. The real events behind the myth.

 

With the second approach you know that this guy talked about a spiritual truth that you already possess because you studied some chinese/indian philosophies and that you can interpret his spiritual sayings with the light of your knowledge. If you're affiliated with Iskon, you believe that Krishna is the "heavenly father" or if you studied some daoist alchemy, you may think that the kingdom of God was some sort of dantien or niwan palace. If you studied buddhism, you're 100% sure that Jesus was talking about Pristine Awareness or something along that line.

 

I wonder which one is the theory with more problems...

 

"The spirit of Truth is within you, but he's wrong most of the time"

 

 

It is definitely not an either-or of your only two scenarios...

 

My point is simply that what Jesus actually is quoted as saying in bible (whether really existed or not), does not at all support your radical zealot view of him.  He talks about peace, love, forgiveness and turning the other cheek.  Even when they come to take him, he does not want to fight them, but instead heals the High priest who was wounded. If the gospels are really supposed to be about a radical revolution at an earthly world level, it does an extremely poor job.  Constantly saying that earthly stuff, just leads to death. Here is another examples of what the gospels actually preach...

 

Romans 8:6-17

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

The gospels repeatedly state that worrying about earthly stuff (and desires) leads to death. Everyone needs to find the (Holy) Spirit within themselves and become a "son of God" in their own right.

 

And know, I did not read any eastern traditions and then map them to the words of Jesus.  But, since I started out more from a (mystical) christian view, the teachings of Jesus did create the mental clarity that allowed to better understand some eastern traditions.  

 

 

 

[Jeff]

I should probably add that Jesus is more like a smarter and older brother to me...  

[Michael Sternbach]

24 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It is definitely not an either-or of your only two scenarios...

 

My point is simply that what Jesus actually is quoted as saying in bible (whether really existed or not), does not at all support your radical zealot view of him.  He talks about peace, love, forgiveness and turning the other cheek.  Even when they come to take him, he does not want to fight them, but instead heals the High priest who was wounded. If the gospels are really supposed to be about a radical revolution at an earthly world level, it does an extremely poor job.  Constantly saying that earthly stuff, just leads to death. Here is another examples of what the gospels actually preach...

 

Romans 8:6-17

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

The gospels repeatedly state that worrying about earthly stuff (and desires) leads to death. Everyone needs to find the (Holy) Spirit within themselves and become a "son of God" in their own right.

 

And know, I did not read any eastern traditions and then map them to the words of Jesus.  But, since I started out more from a (mystical) christian view, the teachings of Jesus did create the mental clarity that allowed to better understand some eastern traditions.  

 

 

 

 

Jeff,

 

When you quote such ancient and symbolic texts, don't you think you should also provide their translation into terms of modern language and metaphysics?

Edited October 19, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Jeff,

 

When you quote such ancient and symbolic texts, don't you think you should also provide an adequate translation, in terms of modern language and metaphysics?

 

Thought it was pretty self evident in the descriptions of earthly stuff being useless and to focus on spirit within.  But, since you asked, here you go...

 

Romans 8:6-17

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 

To be focused on earthly desire leads to death, but higher spiritual leads to everlasting life (and peace).

 

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 

Because the desire based mind is separate from being with God, and not connected with God.

 

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 

So then those focused on fleshly desires cannot (please) realize God.

 

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 

But anyone who has realized that higher spirit within, knows that all of the earthly desires are meaningless.

 

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 

And if you have realized this, even though the body dies because of desires and attachments, the higher spirit of you continues.

 

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 

But if that deep "Holy Spirit" aspect of you is realized, you will find the eternal.

 

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 

Therefore friends, forget all that worldly crap (and zealot like plans...  )

 

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 

Because if you don't, you are toast (will die), but if you do notice the spirit within you, you will eternally live.

 

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 

For all who are led and find that spirit are sons of God (not just Jesus).

 

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 

So don't get caught up in fear of death, but find and let in the spirit of the Father/God.

 

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 

The Spirit of God, will always recognize the spirit with in us, and knows that we are all children of God.

 

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

And since we all have the same potential as Jesus, we are all potential "joint heirs" and can be a Christ like him.  Just need to realize that you that there is a lot of crap you will have to let go (suffer) of.  

 

[Bindi]

Though quoting what Paul wrote is not any proof of what Jesus actually said, only what Paul imagines - Paul who never actually met Jesus in the flesh.