Gospel of Thomas

[Fa Xin]

79. A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."

He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'"

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

79. A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."

He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'"

 

If you have heard the words of the Father and truly kept it, you will open your female energy body side (or male side for a woman). And as you open it, it can actually feel like you have a female body overlaying when you focus on it. One is lucky because with the opening, you have the opportunity to then integrate the “two” (sides) into the “one”. When the two become one, you can then enter the “bridal chamber” (see other verses)...

 

[Fa Xin]

80. Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

[Fa Xin]

3 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

80. Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

I'll take a stab at this one...

 

"Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body" - Incarnated ... Makes me wonder if you can know this physical world at all without being in a body...

 

"Whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy" - By the act of incarnating in the first place, you are divine ... your nature is divine, it is "above" worldly things... and therefor "not worthy"

 

Or maybe the body in the second line could mean a light body ...  the body of Christ ...

Edited June 1, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

I'll take a stab at this one...

 

"Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body" - Incarnated ... Makes me wonder if you can know this physical world at all without being in a body...

 

"Whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy" - By the act of incarnating in the first place, you are divine ... your nature is divine, it is "above" worldly things... and therefor "not worthy"

 

Or maybe the body in the second line could mean a light body ...  the body of Christ ...

 

Maybe first focus on the concept of “know the world”. Knowing is “being” or extending/expanding to be one with the world. And, yes, that is also the beginning of the light body.

[cheya]

@Jeff.... and what about the part that the world is not worthy of that one?

[Jeff]

35 minutes ago, cheya said:

@Jeff.... and what about the part that the world is not worthy of that one?

 

In Christian terms, that one is in the process of becoming a “son of God” and eternal life.  The world (and people in it) is temporary (or ashes) and hence not worthy or the same as being with one with God.

[Fa Xin]

Thanks Jeff, I see that verse in a different way now. Good stuff. 

 

 

[Fa Xin]

81. Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce <it>."

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

81. Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce <it>."

 

I'm thinking the "wealthy" part here is directed towards "spiritual wealth", but this line throws me off a bit.

 

The renunciation of "power" for me seems a bit more straightforward... give up the ego, the world... let your "power" come from God  (and not yourself).

 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

81. Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce <it>."

 

As we know from verse 80, one who has become wealthy is one who has found the (light) body. From there it grows to reigning as the expansion and integration expands. But the hard part is letting it all go. Verse 2 describes it well...

 

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

 

 

[Fa Xin]

82. Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the (Father's) kingdom."

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

82. Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the (Father's) kingdom."

 

The fire that burns away worldly attachments...

[Mark Foote]

On 6/2/2018 at 6:09 AM, Jeff said:

 

As we know from verse 80, one who has become wealthy is one who has found the (light) body. From there it grows to reigning as the expansion and integration expands. But the hard part is letting it all go. Verse 2 describes it well...

 

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

 

 

 

Here's verse 80 (from the Greek) again:
 

80)  Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

I wonder about the word translated as "reign" in verse 2.  

Ok, here are the two lines from the Coptic (Nag Hammadi manuscripts) instead of the Greek, using the source that Apech referred to in the very first post on this thread:

 

2)  Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

 

80)  Jesus said, "He who has recognized the world has found the body, but he who has found the body is superior to the world."

 

"Rule over the All" instead of "reign over all", is the part I'm interested in.  In particular, "the All" sheds a little light on the kind of "all" over which the reigning or ruling is to take place--"the All" is more than the material, if I'm understanding correctly, whereas "reign over all" has a more material sound. 

 

As to the body, could he just be talking about the material body, complete with phlegm and bile and excrement?  Like this:

 

29)  Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Here's verse 80 (from the Greek) again:
 

80)  Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

I wonder about the word translated as "reign" in verse 2.  

Ok, here are the two lines from the Coptic (Nag Hammadi manuscripts) instead of the Greek, using the source that Apech referred to in the very first post on this thread:

 

2)  Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

 

80)  Jesus said, "He who has recognized the world has found the body, but he who has found the body is superior to the world."

 

"Rule over the All" instead of "reign over all", is the part I'm interested in.  In particular, "the All" sheds a little light on the kind of "all" over which the reigning or ruling is to take place.  "the All" is more than the material, if I'm understanding correctly, whereas "reign over all" has a more material sound. 

 

As to the body, could he just be talking about the material body, complete with phlegm and bile and excrement?  Like this:

 

29)  Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

 

To me, the meaning of "rule over the All" and "reign over all" are similar in meaning.  The difference in translations do not really change the inherent meaning for me.

[Fa Xin]

On 6/4/2018 at 2:13 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Here's verse 80 (from the Greek) again:
 

80)  Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

I wonder about the word translated as "reign" in verse 2.  

Ok, here are the two lines from the Coptic (Nag Hammadi manuscripts) instead of the Greek, using the source that Apech referred to in the very first post on this thread:

 

2)  Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

 

80)  Jesus said, "He who has recognized the world has found the body, but he who has found the body is superior to the world."

 

"Rule over the All" instead of "reign over all", is the part I'm interested in.  In particular, "the All" sheds a little light on the kind of "all" over which the reigning or ruling is to take place--"the All" is more than the material, if I'm understanding correctly, whereas "reign over all" has a more material sound. 

 

As to the body, could he just be talking about the material body, complete with phlegm and bile and excrement?  Like this:

 

29)  Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

What would this last line mean, if we are speaking more literally:

"whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

 

This line makes me think there is indeed a deeper meaning to the term "body", though I initially thought it was a flesh and bone body too...

Edited June 6, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

83. Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

83. Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

 

This verse is awesome...

 

To me, I get the impression of "the light is NOT yours" ... it's from the Father/God"  Transcending ego... the Holy light is not from "Fa Xin" (image).  People look at me (Fa Xin) but do not see the light from my image alone...

 

"He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light" ... this is a very interesting line... any ideas what he means by this?

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

What would this last line mean, if we are speaking more literally:

"whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."

 

This line makes me think there is indeed a deeper meaning to the term "body", though I initially thought it was a flesh and bone body too...

 

Lately I've been writing about two oddities of the human condition.  The first, I learned of through this article online:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/

 

The notion there is that there is an anxiety produced when the brain decides that I'm suffocating, although the exact conditions that trigger the suffocation response can be complex.  I encounter this when I sit, and the effort for me is to relax.

 

The second, I've known for some time, but the Tai Chi teacher Cheng Man-ching describes it well:

 

Generally, ancient people referred to self-cultivation as cheng ching wei tso (straightening the clothes and sitting upright). The derivation of the word wei is difficult. Most people do not dare to interpret it as meaning ‘dangerous’. But I think the words wei tso contain the actual meaning of danger because the spine, like a string of pearls, has many sections ascending vertically.

 

(Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 42, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)

 

And in fact, there is shearing force at the 4th and 5th lumbar vertebrae, because of the way the lower spine curves back toward the junction with the top of the sacrum.  Again, there is an anxiety associated with the experience of the precariousness of being upright, and I find I have to calm myself in response.

 

This is the poverty of the body, and yet, with relaxation and calm, a one-pointedness of heart-mind comes forward.  The senses work together to provide a feeling of place associated with awareness, to make an eye in the place of an eye, a hand in the place of a hand, a foot in the place of a foot, and an image in the place of an image.

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

83. Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

 

The "images" described is talking about astral viewing or what the Bible calls "false light", as astral stuff is not the true light. Astral stuff is more "energy" and energy is sort of like "attached" light that is obscured.  True light is not visible or something that you see. Also, the light is really more like the "motion" of the father, and hence you could say the father is hidden (or behind) his light.

[Fa Xin]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

The "images" described is talking about astral viewing or what the Bible calls "false light", as astral stuff is not the true light. Astral stuff is more "energy" and energy is sort of like "attached" light that is obscured.  True light is not visible or something that you see. Also, the light is really more like the "motion" of the father, and hence you could say the father is hidden (or behind) his light.

 

Wow, this makes a lot of sense.  In my own personal practice, I could never really "see" the father.

 

So the "disclosed" part of the verse... just means you experience the light?

[Fa Xin]

84. Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"

[Fa Xin]

On 6/5/2018 at 10:34 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Lately I've been writing about two oddities of the human condition.  The first, I learned of through this article online:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/

 

The notion there is that there is an anxiety produced when the brain decides that I'm suffocating, although the exact conditions that trigger the suffocation response can be complex.  I encounter this when I sit, and the effort for me is to relax.

 

The second, I've known for some time, but the Tai Chi teacher Cheng Man-ching describes it well:

 

Generally, ancient people referred to self-cultivation as cheng ching wei tso (straightening the clothes and sitting upright). The derivation of the word wei is difficult. Most people do not dare to interpret it as meaning ‘dangerous’. But I think the words wei tso contain the actual meaning of danger because the spine, like a string of pearls, has many sections ascending vertically.

 

(Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 42, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)

 

And in fact, there is shearing force at the 4th and 5th lumbar vertebrae, because of the way the lower spine curves back toward the junction with the top of the sacrum.  Again, there is an anxiety associated with the experience of the precariousness of being upright, and I find I have to calm myself in response.

 

This is the poverty of the body, and yet, with relaxation and calm, a one-pointedness of heart-mind comes forward.  The senses work together to provide a feeling of place associated with awareness, to make an eye in the place of an eye, a hand in the place of a hand, a foot in the place of a foot, and an image in the place of an image.

 

 

Thank you for sharing... that's definitely a way of "knowing the body"  

Would this be "Transcending the body" as well?

 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Thank you for sharing... that's definitely a way of "knowing the body"  

Would this be "Transcending the body" as well?

 

 

I am coming at the teachings through the Pali Canon sermon volumes and some practice of martial arts, as well as works like "The Gospel of Thomas".  I would say, however, that the lotus has been my main practice, even though I would not consider myself an adept by any means.

 

The emphasis in Gautama's teachings in the Canon is on the surrender of self, and the cessation of habitual or voluntary activity, first in speech, then in inhalation and exhalation (the body), and then in perception and sensation (the  heart-mind--the mind, he regarded as one of six senses). 

 

Like Jesus, Gautama sometimes spoke of himself in a kind of mystical sense, as "the Tathagata", or "thus-gone" one.

 

Some of the cessations Gautama spoke of are:

 

1)  discomfort (dis-ease);

 

2)  unhappiness

 

3)  ease apart from equanimity

 

4)  happiness apart from equanimity

 

These are the cessations of the four material meditative states, marked by equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses.  The cessation of happiness apart from equanimity is simultaneous with the cessation of habitual or volitive activity with respect to inhalation or exhalation.

 

The four immaterial states are marked by equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses, and the cessation of habitual or volitive activity in perception and sensation follows the abandonment of that equanimity.  Gautama surpassed his two teachers, in realizing the cessation of perception and sensation.

 

I don't think you can actually identify the senses as something other than the body, and to experience equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses requires the cessation of habitual or volitive activity in inhalation and exhalation, so I'm not sure "transcend the body" is the way to express what transpires. 

 

Saying 84 that you quote reminds me of Gautama's ability to see past lives, and to know whether his disciples were once-returners or whatever at death.  Apart from these abilities, Gautama performed no miracle but teaching, although some of his disciples did.  I think it's questionable whether Jesus actually performed miracles or not--doesn't detract from what he had to say, for me.

 

I find myself returning to what Gautama described as his way of living, both before and after enlightenment.  You can read more about that here, if you like.

 

It's been said that enlightenment is about something you lose--I don't know who said that, but I believe it.  Jesus lost what was Jesus.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Wow, this makes a lot of sense.  In my own personal practice, I could never really "see" the father.

 

So the "disclosed" part of the verse... just means you experience the light?

 

Disclosed would be more like “knowing”.