Gospel of Thomas

[Mark Foote]

51 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

89. Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"

 

Seemingly related to:

 

"... when you make the inner as the outer 
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below..."

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

I still like what I wrote about that years ago:

"where the location of consciousness in three dimensions seems clear with respect to the external objects of sense, the same clarity can be brought to the location of consciousness with respect to the internal objects of sense (including the sense-organs). Where the location of consciousness seems clear with respect to the internal objects of sense, the same clarity can be brought to the location of consciousness with regard to the external sense objects. In making the inner as the outer and then the outer as the inner, the generation of reciprocal activity through the place of occurrence of consciousness is brought forward. As the activity is relaxed, the reciprocal in lower body activity reaches the top of the head through the extensors."

 

Maybe I have a bit more to say about that, I'm working on a post to my own "Zazen Notes" now.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Seemingly related to:

 

"... when you make the inner as the outer 
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below..."

 

Nice. I agree. 

 

I think theres also something in the words “He who made...is also the one who made...” like pointing again to “it’s the Fathers, not mine”  

Edited August 2, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

89. Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"

 

Many people only seem to worry about outward appearances, but it is the inner thoughts that truly define the act. Karma is about intention, not the act itself. Another example on the same point...

 

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

 

[Fa Xin]

 

90. Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."

[Fa Xin]

5 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

90. Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."

 

For me this has a more personal meaning , than one based on a particular teaching.  It's about connecting with Jesus' energy, and finding lots of space (rest). 

 

There may be another meaning, but I'm going with this one, final answer

Edited August 5, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Mark Foote]

On 8/4/2018 at 6:04 PM, Fa Xin said:

 

90. Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."

 

(90) Jesus said:  Come to Me, for easy is My yoke and My lordship is gentle, and you shall find repose for yourselves.

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 47 log. 90, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

I've just finished a piece about Koichi Tohei's Four Points of Aikido, wherein I arrive at this statement:

 

As I sit with Tohei's emphasis on centrifugal force, I realize that for me the exercise becomes in part the distinction of the direction of turn that I'm feeling at the location of awareness, and that distinction allows the appropriate counter from everything that surrounds the place of awareness.

As a baseball pitcher extends his target through the catcher's mitt, or a karate practitioner extends his target through the board or brick that he or she is about to break, the balance of centrifugal force and counterforce can depend on the inclusion of what lies beyond the senses in the stretch.
 

As I also remark in the piece:

If the mind of friendliness, of compassion, of sympathetic joy, or of equanimity is extended throughout the four quarters of the world, above and below, then the centrifugal force at the location of awareness and the counterforce can involve things that lie beyond the boundaries of the senses, and change in the balance of force and counterforce can initiate change in the carriage of the body without conscious volition.

 

To act with awareness yet without conscious volition, then, requires a love that extends beyond the boundaries of the senses--that would be the yoke that is light yet present, the actor acting under His lordship (as it were), and repose in the selflessness of what is done.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Fa Xin]

Hmm, where were we?

Summer is over, it's back to school

[Fa Xin]

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."

He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."

He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

 

Sounds like he's talking about being awoken to the spirit. "Face of heaven and earth" is like the shell of things, the empty clay pot, the exterior and the body. Heaven and Earth are things that pass away.

 

The last two lines, one who is in your presence, like your aware that there's another level to Heaven and Earth... your aware of the spirit side of things.  Examine the present moment... you can't really do that if your caught up with "the face of Heaven and Earth"

[Jonesboy]

11 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."

He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

 

Heaven and earth are one and the same. You don't understand that presence, that oneness because you haven't realized what truly the present moment is.

 

If you truly knew in your being you too would know.

[Fa Xin]

17 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Heaven and earth are one and the same. You don't understand that presence, that oneness because you haven't realized what truly the present moment is.

 

If you truly knew in your being you too would know.

I like that one !

[Fa Xin]

10 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Heaven and earth are one and the same. You don't understand that presence, that oneness because you haven't realized what truly the present moment is.

 

If you truly knew in your being you too would know.

 

I can also think from the first question "Tell us who you are so we may believe in you" ... its possible to feel someone's presence if the mind is quiet/sensitive enough... No belief would be necessary...

[Fa Xin]

92. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.

In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

92. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.

In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."

 

One of the most interesting thing about the Gospel of Thomas is the picture it paints of the majority of the disciples.  Early in the Gospel, Jesus takes Thomas aside for a few words, and when the rest of the crew asks Thomas what Jesus told him, Thomas says:

 

If I tell you one of the words which He said to me, you will take up stones and throw at me; and fire will come from the stones and burn you up.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 11 log. 13, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Log. 92 similarly suggests that the majority of the disciples took a wrong turn somewhere, and possibly that the crew is entirely off track, as log. 91 seems to indicate.  Here are both loggia, in the alternate translation I keep referencing:

 

(91) They said to Him:  Tell us who Thou art so that we may believe in Thee.  He said to them:  You test the face of the sky and of the earth, and him who is before your face you have not known, and you do not know to test this moment. 

 

(92)  Jesus said:  Seek and you will find, but those things which you asked me in those days, I did not tell you then; now I desire to tell them, but you do not inquire after them.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 47-49 ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

In 91, Jesus tells his disciples that they are barking up the wrong palm tree, that they need to test this moment to know him. 

 

My guess is that at this point the disciples are overwhelmed with the extraordinary presence of Jesus, and they no longer feel they have any hope of receiving something of that presence but instead pursue relieving themselves of any pressure to receive, by casting Jesus as something "other" that can only be believed in and not personally experienced.

 

Did I mention that one of my teachers at university was a Thomas Christian, from the south of India?  He said where he was from, the people  believed that Thomas came to the south of India, and was stoned to death there.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Fa Xin]

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

One of the most interesting thing about the Gospel of Thomas is the picture it paints of the majority of the disciples.  Early in the Gospel, Jesus takes Thomas aside for a few words, and when the rest of the crew asks Thomas what Jesus told him, Thomas says:

 

If I tell you one of the words which He said to me, you will take up stones and throw at me; and fire will come from the stones and burn you up.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 11 log. 13, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Log. 92 similarly suggests that the majority of the disciples took a wrong turn somewhere, and possibly that the crew is entirely off track, as log. 91 seems to indicate.  Here are both loggia, in the alternate translation I keep referencing:

 

(91) They said to Him:  Tell us who Thou art so that we may believe in Thee.  He said to them:  You test the face of the sky and of the earth, and him who is before your face you have not known, and you do not know to test this moment. 

 

(92)  Jesus said:  Seek and you will find, but those things which you asked me in those days, I did not tell you then; now I desire to tell them, but you do not inquire after them.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 47-49 ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

In 91, Jesus tells his disciples that they are barking up the wrong palm tree, that they need to test this moment to know him. 

 

My guess is that at this point the disciples are overwhelmed with the extraordinary presence of Jesus, and they no longer feel they have any hope of receiving something of that presence but instead pursue relieving themselves of any pressure to receive, by casting Jesus as something "other" that can only be believed in and not personally experienced.

 

Did I mention that one of my teachers at university was a Thomas Christian, from the south of India?  He said where he was from, the people  believed that Thomas came to the south of India, and was stoned to death there.

 

 

Fascinating stuff... I never even knew about the Thomas Christian sect in India until I read your post.  

 

These latest verses do seem to paint a less-than-flattering picture of the apostles. I wonder if it was just for "educational purposes only".

 

Edit: Surprisingly the wikipedia page has a lot of good info on Thomas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle

Edited September 16, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Fascinating stuff... I never even knew about the Thomas Christian sect in India until I read your post.  

 

These latest verses do seem to paint a less-than-flattering picture of the apostles. I wonder if it was just for "educational purposes only".

 

Edit: Surprisingly the wikipedia page has a lot of good info on Thomas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle

 

 

The Wikipedia article had some interesting bits, I agree.

 

Looking at the Zen tradition, some teachers had many "transmission" holders, and some had none.  

 

The teaching of Jesus is spoken as the teaching of what Gautama the Buddha referred to as the Tathagata (the "thus-gone one").  Gautama rarely spoke as "the Tathagata", or rarely acknowledged he was speaking as such, and that rarity remained the pattern in Zen as far as I can tell.   In that sense, the teachings are different, yet my feeling is that the way the teaching is imparted in Zen is the way Jesus intended to impart the teaching to his disciples, and in this he together with his disciples largely failed. 

 

With the possible exception of Thomas, based on "The Gospel of Thomas".

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Fa Xin]

93. "Don't give what is holy to dogs, for they might throw them upon the manure pile. Don't throw pearls [to] pigs, or they might ... it [...]."

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

93. "Don't give what is holy to dogs, for they might throw them upon the manure pile. Don't throw pearls [to] pigs, or they might ... it [...]."

 

Don't waste your time trying to teach those who don't care for what your saying...

[Fa Xin]

94. Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."

[Fa Xin]

4 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

94. Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."

 

Take one step towards God, and God will take three steps towards you.

 

or the biblical version

 

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you" -James 4:8

Edited September 26, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Take one step towards God, and God will take three steps towards you.

 

or the biblical version

 

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you" -James 4:8

 

I would say this is a little closer on the biblical version...  

 

Luke 11:9-10

 

⁹ And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

¹⁰ For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[s1va]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I would say this is a little closer on the biblical version...  

 

Luke 11:9-10

 

⁹ And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

¹⁰ For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

Sounds similar to the divine grace in Tantra.

[Fa Xin]

95. [Jesus said], "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back."

[Fa Xin]

2 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

95. [Jesus said], "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back."

 

Love this one here. 

 

On the surface, it sounds like charitable giving. It also sounds like he's talking about not having attachments.

 

And not material attachments like money, but more the "wondering when you'll get it back" attachment. Also the whole idea of "Why" are you giving it? To get it back, or for more ego based purposes? Strings attached...

 

Makes me think of Loving and Giving... To be selfless in God

Edited September 27, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

96. Jesus [said], "The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!"