Gospel of Thomas

[Fa Xin]

Quote

96. Jesus [said], "The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!"

 

Anyone have any ideas on this one ?

Edited September 30, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

96. Jesus [said], "The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!"

 

That's really lovely, isn't it?

If you've got the starter, you can make a nourishment for a lot of people.

 

But why two ears.  You could hear it with one. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

16 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

96. Jesus [said], "The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!"

 

The meaning is basically the same as this Chaper from the Tao Te Ching...

 

SIX

The valley spirit never dies;

It is the woman, primal mother.

Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth.

It is like a veil barely seen.

Use it; it will never fail.

 

The gateway is the little leaven that is hid in the dough. It helps everything “rise” into larger loaves...

[cheya]

When Fa Xin's question made me really look at the quote, I suddenly thought of the leaven as chi, and how this magical stuff animates the inanimate mineral world,  enlivens it, and allows it the possibility of growth... only living things can grow.... But I don't think so much of chi as being easily related as such in "The Father's Kingdom"... so I didn't reply...

But Jeff's post nicely frames it in the language of Tao... 

 

And now, I'm curious, Mark's question:

Why two ears?
 

[Aetherous]

Regarding sayings about "ears that hear" etc...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13&version=NRSV
 

(edited this post to switch from NIV to NRSV, which I think is slightly better)

Edited October 1, 2018 by Aetherous

[cheya]

Yes, but, specifically.... 

two ears?

[Aetherous]

Just now, cheya said:

Yes, but, specifically.... 

two ears?

 

I think it's just because everyone is born with two ears...I don't think there was a difference in terms of the teachings between one ear or two or three. Just the way they said things in those times...or it may even be the translator's wording.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, cheya said:

Yes, but, specifically.... 

two ears?

 

It is about giving your full attention by listening with both ears, as opposed to listening (and trying to pay attention) to something else at the same time.  Sort of like saying, don't listen to other stuff now and pay attention only to this...

[cheya]

So don't be multi tasking on this one.... 

That works.

It really is pretty foundational... get that one, and the world is transformed...

But the Taoist language works better for me in this instance...

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, cheya said:

So don't be multi tasking on this one.... 

That works.

It really is pretty foundational... get that one, and the world is transformed...

But the Taoist language works better for me in this instance...

 

I would agree and that is why I did the mapping to the Taoist text.  But, in some cases the GOT is easier to understand.  

[Mark Foote]

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

But why two ears.  You could hear it with one. 

 

 

Looks like I spoke too soon; the translator we've been using added the "two".

 

Here's a "linear" translation:

 

 

That's from http://gospel-thomas.net/splith.htm

 

They have three other, regular translations that give it as "whoever has ears". 

 

Page above is from a pretty comprehensive-looking site:

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

Edited October 2, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jonesboy]

97. Jesus said, "The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty."

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

97. Jesus said, "The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty."

 

Seems like the story of our lives, alright.  Born with the divine stuff of life, and we go through our days mostly without bringing it to the forefront, until we reach our end of days and discover it's gone.  Sort of a sad one there, JC... 

[Fa Xin]

On 10/10/2018 at 2:06 PM, Jonesboy said:

97. Jesus said, "The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty."

 

For me this has to do with emptiness and form. Her jar was empty all along, yet she thought it was full and going about her merry way. It wasn’t until she reached the end of her journey that she realized there was nothing there. 

[Jonesboy]

97. Jesus said, "The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty."

 

 

While her mind was silent and not focused on things she had no worries.

It is when you start to focus on the "things" the contents and what one may have or may be losing/attaching to, that is when you start to have problems.

[Jonesboy]

98 is a tough one.

 

Quote

98. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one."

Edited October 22, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

98 is a tough one.

 

 

98. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one."

 

But, a good one... Maybe some hints for the discussion... When you are at "home" spiritually, you are in the local body-mind.  The wall is your mind. Can you cut through it, start to get outside of it?  On someone powerful, do the powerful get into the father's kingdom, or the meek?

[Jonesboy]

50 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

98. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one."

 

But, a good one... Maybe some hints for the discussion... When you are at "home" spiritually, you are in the local body-mind.  The wall is your mind. Can you cut through it, start to get outside of it?  On someone powerful, do the powerful get into the father's kingdom, or the meek?

 

Okay, here is my take.

 

I agree the home is the local body-mind. The reference to the sword thrusting into the wall and his hand going through for me sounds like cutting through. Cutting through the obstructions or the powerful attachments to that local mind-body.

 

Interesting that it isn't the sword that needs to go through the wall but his hand, he has to move beyond the wall himself.

 

Thank you for bring up the meek, for one caught up in being powerful can never go through the wall. You have to let go of all of that.

 

 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Okay, here is my take.

 

I agree the home is the local body-mind. The reference to the sword thrusting into the wall and his hand going through for me sounds like cutting through. Cutting through the obstructions or the powerful attachments to that local mind-body.

 

Interesting that it isn't the sword that needs to go through the wall but his hand, he has to move beyond the wall himself.

 

Thank you for bring up the meek, for one caught up in being powerful can never go through the wall. You have to let go of all of that.

 

 

Yes, agreed.  As we are talking about "mind" powerful (or ego desires).  For those who want to be powerful (full of desire), the mind is like a wall trapping you.  For those that let go of all of that, the can escape what never really actually held them in the first place.

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

98. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one."

 

 

"(98) Jesus said:  The Kingdom of the Father is like a man who wishes to kill a powerful man.  He drew the sword in his house, he stuck it into the wall, in order to know whether his hand would carry through; then he slew the powerful (man)."

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 51 log. 98, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

I think the translation "to know whether his hand would carry through" makes more sense. 

I'm thinking about the meaning of 98.  In the meantime!---

In a recent post, koun Franz (a Zen teacher) said this:

Okay... So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there's this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It's a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you're not looking out here and out here and out here. It's the positive version, perhaps, of "navel gazing."

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are--to relocate mind (let's not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn't recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it's like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you'll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can't will it to happen, because you're willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it's an act of letting go--and a fascinating one.

("No Struggle (Zazen Yojinki, Part 6)", by Koun Franz, from Koun's "Nyoho Zen" site: https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

Notice that he said, "let's not say your mind". 
 

Just trying to add a cautionary note about attitude toward the thinking mind.  I'm a big fan of Gautama's "way of living", that includes:
 

One trains oneself , thinking: 'I will breathe in... breathe out experiencing thought... rejoicing in thought... concentrating thought... freeing thought.'

 

(MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III pg 124)

 

Or, in an alternative translation:
 

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.  One makes up one's mind (repeating): "Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out. Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out. Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 276)

 

"Rejoicing" or "gladdening", nice work if you can get it.

 

"Detaching my mind I shall breathe in (breathe out)"--here is where I look to feel the location of awareness.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jonesboy]

Moving on,

 

99. The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside." He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my Father's kingdom."

[Fa Xin]

99. The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside." He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my Father's kingdom."

 

Jesus wasn't limited to his earthly family... he considered all "souls" his brothers and his family ... yet he made it a point to say "those who do what my father wants..." meaning not "all souls" have realized that there's a Father's will to follow (or to follow the Dao)

 

It also highlighted his lack of attachments...

... leaving his poor mother outside! 

[Jonesboy]

Here is an easy one.

 

100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us." He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Here is an easy one.

 

 

 

Is it?  What belongs to God, and what belongs to Jesus?

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

Is it?  What belongs to God, and what belongs to Jesus?

 

I’m not too sure what he meant by this one...

 

what belongs to Jesus that is not already Gods? Sounds like a trick question 😊