Gospel of Thomas

[s1va]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Is it?  What belongs to God, and what belongs to Jesus?

 

Everything belongs to God and nothing belongs to the Emperor, since there truly is no 'Emperor'.  That is one view.  Not sure if this is what Jesus meant here.  

 

Still leaves out, what belongs to Jesus.  He likes to help people, take their sins/karma and wash it away.  May be that's what he is asking as belonging to him.  Once a person gets thus purified, they are ready to give everything to God, since they know they are one with the God.

[Jeff]

100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us." He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

 

I think to understand what would be "Jesus'" and what would be "God's", it is important to see this in sort of the broader context provided by John...

 

John 16:7-16

 

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

⁸ And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

⁹ Of sin, because they believe not on me;

¹⁰ Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

¹¹ Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

¹² I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

¹⁴ He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

¹⁵ All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

¹⁶ A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

 

And the importance of the "Comforter" who will come when he leaves.  And how it is the comforter that "shall receive of mine (Jesus)". Also, how you see Jesus, then you can't, and then you can see him again.  (sort of like a zen koan mountain  )

[Fa Xin]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us." He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

 

I think to understand what would be "Jesus'" and what would be "God's", it is important to see this in sort of the broader context provided by John...

 

John 16:7-16

 

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

⁸ And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

⁹ Of sin, because they believe not on me;

¹⁰ Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

¹¹ Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

¹² I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

¹⁴ He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

¹⁵ All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

¹⁶ A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

 

And the importance of the "Comforter" who will come when he leaves.  And how it is the comforter that "shall receive of mine (Jesus)". Also, how you see Jesus, then you can't, and then you can see him again.  (sort of like a zen koan mountain  )

 

This is a very interesting verse, thank you for sharing.

 

The idea of this Comforter coming ... this isn't speaking of Jesus going away, but more US going away? Like we have to lose ourselves to find the light....

 

So in the GOT verse, "what is mine" is actually talking about people in general, and not specifically Jesus.

[Mark Foote]

On 10/22/2018 at 7:16 AM, Jonesboy said:

(98) Jesus said:  The Kingdom of the Father is like a man who wishes to kill a powerful man.  He drew the sword in his house, he stuck it into the wall, in order to know whether his hand would carry through; then he slew the powerful (man).

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 51 log. 98, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

 

Delayed response.  I can't help feeling this is a lot like what I do in the mornings--put my legs into the lotus (better I know if they could just find their way into the lotus), look to extend chi right through (like somebody breaking a board), and then let the chi return to occasion a witness of cessation (of habitual activity) and relinquishment (of any vain conceit that mine is the doer, I am the doer).  

 

The "vain conceit" is the powerful man. 

The extension of chi right through is not really like breaking a board for me (confession, I never have broken any boards)--more like drawing water on the inhale (or lifting a stone), chopping wood on the exhale (or cleaving a round).

Edited October 31, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jeff]

13 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This is a very interesting verse, thank you for sharing.

 

The idea of this Comforter coming ... this isn't speaking of Jesus going away, but more US going away? Like we have to lose ourselves to find the light....

 

So in the GOT verse, "what is mine" is actually talking about people in general, and not specifically Jesus.

 

No, my point with adding the verses from the gospel of John is a little different.  I was trying to better show what "belongs to Jesus" and better differentiate how it sort of theoretically works related to GOT 100.  As the verse states...

 

100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us." He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

 

Remember that Jesus is "Christ" or you could say the basis of "Oneness (in Christ)".  Maybe think of it like the Father is the Dao, and Jesus is the One that emerges from the Dao, and is one with or connected to everyone.   Hence, the stuff that "belongs to Jesus" is the higher aspects of everyone that facilitates that oneness (in Christ).  The verses of John describe sort of what "blocks" this and why there is the need for the "comforter" to come...

 

⁸ And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

⁹ Of sin, because they believe not on me;

¹⁰ Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

¹¹ Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

So those thing that block are "sin" as issues and fears that block from seeing/knowing Christ/Father and mental "judgement". More broadly in John, Jesus touches on the very important polarity dynamic with the coming of the comforter.  In mystical Christian terms, Jesus goes to "heaven" (right hand of Father) to be the source of light for the world, which would be the "transmission" side of the polarity.  While the comforter becomes the ultimate reception (or Valley of the universe in taoist terms) and vacuums up all of the issues and fears blocking realization.  This is described with...

 

¹³ Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

¹⁴ He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

Speaking in this context is energy transfer or broadcasting. So he shall not speak of himself and only of what he hears, means that he does not transmit energy himself, but only reflect, purifies and returns the energy that is sent to him.  And that purification "shows you the things to come" or higher stuff.

[Fa Xin]

101. "Whoever does not hate [father] and mother as I do cannot be my [disciple], and whoever does [not] love [father and] mother as I do cannot be my [disciple]. For my mother [...], but my true [mother] gave me life."

 

Good one here...

Why does he go from saying hate them, to love them?

Edited November 2, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

102. Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

Edited December 9, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, Fa Xin said:

102. Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

 

To me this one represents the worldly, lip service of organized religion.  They represent the "spiritual" in the world, yet they are not in touch with the spirit.

 

So not only do they not share in the true spirit (dog neither eats), but they keep honest seekers from finding their way home too (doesn't let the cattle eat).

[Fa Xin]

103. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."

[Fa Xin]

3 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

103. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."

 

This one sounds like a Star Wars line

Edited December 12, 2018 by Fa Xin

[rideforever]

On 02/11/2018 at 3:45 AM, Fa Xin said:

101. "Whoever does not hate [father] and mother as I do cannot be my [disciple], and whoever does [not] love [father and] mother as I do cannot be my [disciple]. For my mother [...], but my true [mother] gave me life."

 

Father & Mother are cultivate force higher than you, on the basis of them you develop.  First as child.  Then when cooked, you leave home and then society cultivates you then you leave society and Heaven & Earth cultivate you.   This is the course, but if people do not leave cling on, or are not cultivated well then problem.   Probably many Jewish families too close, resist next step.

 

If the teacher is not respected,
And the student not cared for,
Confusion will arise, however clever one is.
This is the crux of mystery.

 

Due to our confusion of consciousness we make a mess of this natural handing off from one cultivating force to another, from being student to being teacher, all linked all cultivating, like farming at many levels, all reciprochal, all cared for.

 

But even the human mind-mess is part of a different type of cycle ... the cycles of reciprocity are "ideals" towards which we wend.

 

[rideforever]

On 09/12/2018 at 6:39 AM, Fa Xin said:

102. Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

 

It is the same for all human systems that resist the new.   

"First the ignore you then they laugh at you then they attack you then you win".

We can understand that the systems protect themselves, through attack, which indicates that they are very unstable and that human consciousness is in general very unstable .... and so such things are understandable.   We can imagine that no system will protect itself but that is a delusion, the systems that exist are critical or nobody is going to live beyond savagery.

Therefore respect them, and if you are fortunate to have the idle time to gather the luxury of Light inside, then do not blame others but bring what you can to them, paying for the extra you have gained, and respecting the shoulders upon which you stand.

At the same time humans (perhaps not in all cultures but commonly) are very negative, living through oneupmanship, criticism, negativity, stealing other people's ideas, exploitation, desiring and taking what is not deserved and so on.  Some very insincere and not conforming to reality has entered .... through a weak place in man.

[Jonesboy]

37 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

103. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."

 

This to me sounds more like dealing with an attack, like with a demon or you could even say negative energy.

 

This is very much like Chapter 69 of the TTC as Jeff described it here.

 

Quote

SIXTY-NINE

There is a saying among soldiers: “I dare not make the first move but would rather play the guest;

I dare not advance an inch but would rather withdraw a foot.”

This is called marching without appearing to move,

Rolling up your sleeves without showing your arm,

Capturing the enemy without attacking,

Being armed without weapons.

There is no greater catastrophe than underestimating the enemy.

By underestimating the enemy,

I risk losing what I value.

Therefore when the battle is joined,

The underdog will win.

 

In any energy battle (or fighting with a negative being), this chapter very well explains the best approach. If fighting such a battle, it is sort of like mind to/against mind. So attacking another is like going from your mind space into another mind space.  While egotistical “evil guru” types think they can over power that way, it is a huge mistake.  As one goes into another “local” mindspace, you increasingly become more subject to the rules and nature of that mind space.  Also, the deeper into that mind space, the more powerful (and rigid). Hence, the best approach is as described...

 

There is a saying among soldiers: “I dare not make the first move but would rather play the guest;

I dare not advance an inch but would rather withdraw a foot.”

This is called marching without appearing to move,

Rolling up your sleeves without showing your arm,

Capturing the enemy without attacking,

Being armed without weapons.

 

Once on your own “turf” it is all much easier as your mind becomes the natural “translation” and mapping of the energy attack. As long as you dont get caught up in it, that mental badass demon thing is now just some energy wash/push. For the next part,  Underestimating the enemy could also be described is you going arrogant and over confident (or more ego based), and in potentially leaving your base center, you definitely “risk losing what you value” (your own basis) and get your ass kicked.

 

Therefore when the battle is joined, The underdog will win.

 

No one can defeat you if you can continue to be like water (or valley of the universe). 

 

Much the same is being describe in the GOT quote.

 

You know an enemy is going to attack.

Do not advance but gather your resources.

Staying within your own mind space you are prepared.... and half way to victory.

[Fa Xin]

Cool stuff Tom. Actually, Taijiquan and other internal arts have the same theory when it comes to physical fighting. Maintain your center 😊

[rideforever]

2 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

103. Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."

 

He who knows how to live can walk abroad
Without fear of rhinoceros or tiger.
He will not be wounded in battle.
For in him rhinoceroses can find no 
place to thrust their horn,
Tigers no place to use their claws,
And weapons no place to pierce.
Why is this so?
Because he has no place for death to enter.

 

The process of human life is to form a structure, and then surrender that structure to existence, and the result is a channel of light.

Surrender cannot happen before a structure is formed : preparing for rebels and such is in that phase of development;  in the later phase - in him rhinoceroses can find no place to thrust their horn.

JC's mission certainly involved conflict but often his responses to the Pharisees was transcendental insight, however at times he expressed frustration at his students and even at God ... "father why hast thou foresaken me".  Moving between the poles of trust and despair.

 

Also one of my favourites  :

 

“True, there are sometimes

Tough joints.  I feel them coming,

I slow down, I watch closely,

Hold back, barely move the blade,

And whump! the part falls away

Landing like a clod of earth.

“Then I withdraw the blade,

I stand still

And let the joy of the work

Sink in.

I clean the blade

And put it away.”

 

... he is able to alchemise even tough joints, but then again he was happy just being a cook.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

"no place for death to enter in", " father why hast thou foresaken me"--

 

"As brothers our troubles are

Locked in each other's arms

And you better pray

That they never find you

 

'Cause your back ain't strong enough

To bear a burden double-fold

It'll cut you down

Down into nothing."

"Nothing", by Townes Van Zandt (here)

[Fa Xin]

104. They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."

Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray."

[Fa Xin]

46 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

104. They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."

Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray."

 

Praying and fasting is a sign that you believe you lack something, or that your wrong or impure in some way. It is separateness from God.

 

When the "groom" (presence of God) is in your heart (bridal suite), you don't need to do anything. You are one with the spirit. 

It is when this presence departs, do you feel the need to fast and pray to try and get it back.

 

This is one of my favorite topics of the Gospels. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Jonesboy]

5 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

104. They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."

Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray."

 

Here is a little more on the topic of the bridal suite.

 

75. Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite."

 

Also, from the Secret Gospel of Mary...

 

12. Disciples of Mary said to her, “We are going on a pilgrimage to the holy land so we might see where you and the Lord lived.” Mary said to them, “The holy land is wherever a child of Light goes, and it is where the child of Light abides. The holy land is where the Anointed and the soul are joined, it is the bridal chamber.”

 

23. Mary spoke, and said, “There is baptism, chrism and wedding feast, and there is the ransom and bridal chamber. Baptism is water, chrism is fire and the ransom is earth. The wedding feast is the air, for in the Spirit we shall meet the Anointed on the Day of Joy, and then the element of the bridal chamber shall be fully revealed. Everything the Lord accomplished he accomplished in a mystery, and the Anointed Bride is the mystery.”

 

48. Mary taught her disciples, saying, “The Aeons of Light are the handmaids of the Bride at the wedding feast, and the best man is the Son of Adam at the wedding; in the bridal chamber the soul acquires intimate acquaintance with the Anointed and becomes the Anointed. Until that time, sing and dance and rejoice, for it is to those who abide in joy that the Shekinah comes, and it is through her that you will enter the bridal chamber

 

Fasting and praying is for those who have yet to become or have realized they are a Son of God.

[Still_Waters]

I found verse 11 in the Gospel of Thomas to be particularly intriguing:

 

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die."

[Jonesboy]

6 minutes ago, Still_Waters said:

I found verse 11 in the Gospel of Thomas to be particularly intriguing:

 

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die."

 

Do you find just that particular sentence in the verse interesting?

 

Any thoughts on the verse?

 

11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above

it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will

not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it

what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you

do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you

become two, what will you do?"

 

 

[Still_Waters]

2 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Do you find just that particular sentence in the verse interesting?

 

Any thoughts on the verse?

 

11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above

it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will

not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it

what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you

do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you

become two, what will you do?"

 

 

Actually, the whole verse is interesting but that particular passage caught my attention. In reading "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton, his conclusions include the possibility that there may be various levels of creation with not-so-perfect souls-in-training creating some universes just as we ourselves create dream universes. My spiritual teacher spoke cryptically at first about "time within time". There is a story from the Yoga Vashistha which talks about worlds within worlds. The Christian Jesuit mystic Teillard de Chardin spoke about a matrix of worlds, both hierarchical and parallel. Before reading any of the above, my own visually-oriented meditations led me to the same conclusion though I readily concede that those meditations were unexpected revelations "outside the box" (so to speak) at first. That is when my spiritual mentor started to "go there" and speak on such subjects. Those are my thoughts on verse 11. I am starting to tire of the more mundane "of course" discussions and participate in them less and less.

 

The part about "when you were one you became two" seems somewhat clear and more conventional than the rest and that's why I didn't comment on that part of the verse.

 

Also, Jesus once said cryptically "let the dead bury the dead" and my sense is that he was talking about those who are dead to eternal life. Hence, the rest of the verse did not capture my imagination sufficiently to introduce it as a topic for discussion.

 

Parts of the verse just seemed conventionally clear while the part that I quoted is not often discussed and hence I introduced the subject.

[Fa Xin]

9 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

I found verse 11 in the Gospel of Thomas to be particularly intriguing:

 

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die."

 

Nice part of that verse for sure. 

 

I think the heavens passing away means that we are always unfolding new parts of ourselves (new parts of God.) Big shifts that happen within, but the divine shifts with it. New turnings and evolutions. 

 

Agreed that the “dead are not alive, living will not die” means waking up to “the soul” which lies underneath everything. I also think that realizing “the soul” allows one to live fully and not worry about the small stuff. One is able to love unconditionally. Hence the dead being “not alive” line. 

 

[Jonesboy]

12 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

I found verse 11 in the Gospel of Thomas to be particularly intriguing:

 

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die."

 

When I think of this part I want to know where is heaven.

 

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.

 

So, when Jesus says this heaven will pass and the one above it will pass  he is saying one has not realized it. It is still dualistic.

 

”The dead are not alive, and the living will not die.”

 

This is very much like this verse.

 

”29. Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty..”

 

The spirit is eternal and for those who have realized it, will not die.

 

.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Still_Waters]

4 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Nice part of that verse for sure. 

 

I think the heavens passing away means that we are always unfolding new parts of ourselves (new parts of God.) Big shifts that happen within, but the divine shifts with it. New turnings and evolutions. 

 

Agreed that the “dead are not alive, living will not die” means waking up to “the soul” which lies underneath everything. I also think that realizing “the soul” allows one to live fully and not worry about the small stuff. One is able to love unconditionally. Hence the dead being “not alive” line. 

 

What you wrote resonates as truth with me. There are often many interpretations to the same passage and all of them may very well be true.